July 30, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

fact, with 7 the Town of West Orange or the Town of Verona. 8 Verona supplies my water, the neighbors going into 9 the cul-de-sac, et cetera, the nearest fire hydrant 10 is Verona, so just, again, is there another party 11 that has to be a part... (indiscernible) 12 (Court reporter asks Ms. White to repeat.) 13 MS. WHITE: Is there another party, 14 another town, that's part of that... (indiscernible) 15 (Court reporter asks Ms. White to repeat.) 16 MS. WHITE: Is there another town that 17 is part of that water conversation? 18 COURT REPORTER: Thank you. 19 MR. ANDERSON: That will have to be 20 flushed out and resolved. It can't be between two 21 different water systems without an agreement. 22 MS. WHITE: Exactly. So that's, 23 again, why I was raising the question. 24 (Court reporter asks Ms. White to repeat.) 25 MS. WHITE: I was raising the question Page 209 1 because I think there may be an issue with Verona 2 being impacted on the water side, not necessarily 3 West Orange, and Verona has severe water issues, in 4 fact, neither one of the towers are working. 5 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you, we will look 6 into that. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Please 8 step up, state your name and spell your last name, 9 please. 10 MR. LATERZA: Thank you. Yes, Patrick 11 Laterza, L-A-T-E-R-Z-A. I have, I think, three 12 questions. 13 First, regarding the forest -- I think 14 I know this answer -- was the current town forester 15 asked about the quality of the forest? 16 MR. ANDERSON: I -- 17 MR. LATERZA: The West Orange town 18 forester. 19 MR. ANDERSON: I don't believe that 20 was the forester that was consulted. I think that's 21 a question more for the town environmental 22 consultant. I know that there was people from Amy 23 Green's environmental group that was engaged by the 24 township and I'm not sure which one of them was the 25 forest and whether they are connected to the town.

54 (Pages 210 to 213) Page 210 1 MR. LATERZA: Okay. Well, I actually 2 live in Verona, but I'm north of there, so a couple 3 of quick questions about fire. Was any sort of -- 4 this is a sizable project. Was any sort of impact 5 study done about what the requirements of a major 6 fire would be, not just of West Orange Fire 7 Department but also of the surrounding fire 8 departments? 9 MR. ANDERSON: I'm not aware of a 10 study of that nature. 11 MR. LATERZA: Well, the next closest 12 -- there's one small fire department in West Orange 13 that's near this project, the next closest is 14 Verona, which is a volunteer fire department. Has 15 Verona been involved with any conversations whether 16 they have the capacity to assist in a large-scale 17 fire in a project of this size? 18 MR. ANDERSON: It's not something I'm 19 familiar with, it's not an engineering comment, 20 really. 21 MR. LATERZA: Okay. Thank you. 22 That's it. 23 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you. 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, sir. 25 Please state your name and spell your last name, Page 211 1 sir. 2 MR. KNIGHTS: Yes. Orin Knights, 3 K-N-I-G-H-T-S, Knights. 4 (Court reporter asks Mr. Knights to re-state 5 his first name.) 6 MR. KNIGHTS: Orin. 7 COURT REPORTER: Thank you. 8 MR. KNIGHTS: Orin, O-R-I-N. 9 COURT REPORTER: Thank you. 10 MR. KNIGHTS: I have a question to 11 ask. I'm trying to get some clarification as far as 12 the blasting. Now, is this blasting going to be by 13 machinery or by dynamite? 14 MR. ANDERSON: That was what I was 15 saying before, they'll have to look and see the 16 consistency of the rock before they determine what 17 they need to remove the rock. 18 MR. KNIGHTS: Okay, has there been a 19 study on the effects of the homes around the area as 20 far as the foundations of your homes? Because in my 21 house, I already have a crack in the wall, so with 22 the blasting, I'm quite sure many homes around here 23 might be affected by it, depending on if you're 24 going to be using dynamite, so that's something that 25 you should let us know about. Page 212 1 The other question that I have, if 2 there is an "emergency" emergency in this small 3 area, do you have an estimate of how many fire 4 trucks, ambulances and police cars can actually fit 5 in this small area? 6 MR. ANDERSON: I -- I -- there's room 7 for a -- there's a long roadway and there's room for 8 a lot of emergency vehicles. How

ucks, ambulances and police cars can actually fit 5 in this small area? 6 MR. ANDERSON: I -- I -- there's room 7 for a -- there's a long roadway and there's room for 8 a lot of emergency vehicles. How they would 9 delegate emergency vehicles, how many they'd have, I 10 don't know. 11 MR. KNIGHTS: Okay. Well, that's my 12 two questions, but the most important question is 13 about the dynamiting and the effects it's going to 14 have on the homes. 15 MR. ANDERSON: So that is something 16 that I believe you file a pre-blast survey before 17 you do the actual construction and they do -- and 18 they basically inspect the adjacent homes to make 19 sure that the blasting does not do additional damage 20 to the -- so -- 21 MR. KNIGHTS: So if it does damage, I 22 can come to you guys for repairs, right? 23 MR. ANDERSON: To the blaster, yeah. 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, sir. 25 Yes, sir, state your name and spell your last name, Page 213 1 please, for the record. 2 MR. DAVIS: My name is Edward Davis, 3 I'm the mayor of Essex Fells. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Welcome. 5 MR. DAVIS: Thank you for the 6 opportunity to address the Board. I appreciate all 7 your service. Mayor and Council President, I 8 appreciate your comments on behalf of not just West 9 Orange but all your neighboring towns. 10 I want to follow up on a question from 11 a gentleman who spoke a few questions ago and that's 12 on the restrictions relating to the development of 13 the other 85 to 90 acres, right? Because a key part 14 of the settlement agreement, as you testified, is 15 you're only developing 27 acres, the rest of it is 16 preserved, for lack of a better term. 17 Mr. Chairman, you mentioned a minute 18 ago with the testimony that the enforcement 19 mechanism for that is a deed restriction in favor of 20 the Township of West Orange. 21 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, I believe so. 22 MR. DAVIS: Okay, so that effectively 23 means you're evaluating this application, yes, on 24 its face, but in five years, if the applicant wants 25 to put up another building or West Orange wants to

55 (Pages 214 to 217) Page 214 1 put up additional apartment buildings, to fulfill an 2 obligation perhaps, on those other 85 or 90 acres, 3 there's nothing in that deed restriction that can't 4 be amended by West Orange and the developer. 5 MR. ANDERSON: Well, that's a legal 6 question, I'll let Bryan address that because I 7 don't know legally what can be done. My 8 understanding was that it was to be preserved in 9 perpetuity, but I don't know legally whether that is 10 a hundred percent correct. Bryan will address that 11 or somebody. 12 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you for the 13 comment, Mr. Mayor. I'm going to review the 14 settlement agreement. I know this is Mr. Anderson's 15 questioning. I have no problem with me addressing 16 it. I don't want to misspeak, I would like to 17 review the settlement agreement. 18 MR. DAVIS: Okay, but just to be 19 clear, it's not just the settlement agreement, this 20 is a question of New Jersey law, basically, where 21 you're saying "Who can amend a deed restriction?" 22 The covenant you're talking about runs in favor os 23 West Orange; the answer is West Orange can amend it. 24 So that means a future Council or a future Planning 25 Board can approve a development of this property, Page 215 1 including what is currently preserved as open space. 2 The other way you could do it, as a 3 Planning Board perhaps, with counsel, is you could 4 have that type of deed restriction run in favor of 5 residents around the property; that way, they and 6 their successors could enforce it. So, you know, 7 the question for the developer is basically: Would 8 you be willing to adopt that enforcement mechanism, 9 which would actually preserve the remainder of this 10 property as open space in perpetuity? 11 MR. ANDERSON: That's definitely a 12 question for the developer and his legal counsel. 13 MR. PLOCKER: It is a legal question, 14 Mr. Mayor, and one that we will look into and take 15 seriously. I don't want to misspeak, I would like 16 to consult with my client, and we certainly can have 17 an open line of communication with you, but we will 18 look at the settlement agreement. 19 MR. DAVIS: Okay, thank you. 20 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you. 21 MR. DAVIS: Just one other question. 22 You mentioned some of the other buildings, there's a 23 clubhouse and I think there was reference to a 24 maintenance building and a dog park, I don't know if 25 there's

S: Just one other question. 22 You mentioned some of the other buildings, there's a 23 clubhouse and I think there was reference to a 24 maintenance building and a dog park, I don't know if 25 there's a building associated with the dog park. Page 216 1 When you're talking about the parking space, there's 2 roughly a hundred-plus additional parking spaces 3 that are not associated with the residential 4 building. Is there any anticipated use by 5 nonresidents, members of the public generally, to 6 the clubhouse, for instance, renting out the dog 7 park? Is this a residential use or is this sort of 8 for the general public, meaning other traffic's 9 coming into the property? 10 MR. ANDERSON: So my understanding is 11 it's primarily for the residents here, but it is 12 going to be opened for -- the dog kennel will be 13 open for other people in the community. I don't 14 know the extent of that, but that's the way it's 15 been described to me. The clubhouse itself, I don't 16 think they're far enough along to understand how 17 they're operated, whether they'll rent it out for 18 events or not. I presume they could. We do have 55 19 parking spaces there and then 40 in the lower garage 20 on Building C. That would be only available when 21 they had an event, so I believe events will be -- 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry, Mr. 23 Anderson, will you speak into the mic, please? 24 MR. ANDERSON: I'm sorry, Mr. 25 Chairman. Page 217 1 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: We can't hear 2 anything. 3 MR. DAVIS: I heard you. 4 MR. ANDERSON: You heard me, okay. So 5 we don't know if events, we're not quite there yet, 6 but it is possible. 7 MR. DAVIS: And I guess, Mr. Chairman, 8 I'll just ask you the question. Is a planner going 9 to testify on behalf of the applicant to address 10 questions about use such as this one? 11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Not tonight. 12 MR. DAVIS: Not tonight, but as part 13 of your consideration of this application -- 14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, sir. 15 MR. DAVIS: Are you going to take 16 testimony from a planner and have your own planner 17 opine on whether that's a permitted use? 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, and we will 19 have a legal discussion between the applicant, the 20 attorney and the township about deed restriction. 21 MR. DAVIS: And a public -- not the 22 deed restriction, this is a question of permitted 23 use. The second question I was -- we were just 24 talking

ttorney and the township about deed restriction. 21 MR. DAVIS: And a public -- not the 22 deed restriction, this is a question of permitted 23 use. The second question I was -- we were just 24 talking about is not a deed-restriction question; 25 it's a question of are outsiders, meaning

56 (Pages 218 to 221) Page 218 1 nonresidents, allowed to use this property under the 2 settlement agreement -- 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Absolutely. 4 MR. DAVIS: -- or -- 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Absolutely. 6 MR. DAVIS: -- even though -- 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Under the Open 8 Public Meetings Act, absolutely. 9 MR. DAVIS: Okay. Thank you. 10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Welcome. State your 11 name and spell your last name for the record, 12 please. 13 MR. REDWINE: My name's Jonathan 14 Redwine, R-E-D-W-I-N-E. I live in West Orange. 15 MR. FAGAN: Mr. Chairman, pardon the 16 interruption. Pardon the interruption, Mr. Redwine. 17 Mr. Chairman, our Zoom video feed went blank. We 18 are still recording audio. So I just want to point 19 out to the Zoom audience that I'm trying to correct, 20 restore the Zoom video feed, but I don't know if 21 that's possible, but the meeting is still continuing 22 and recording audio and I'm sorry for the 23 interruption, Mr. Chairman. 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Thank you. 25 Yes, sir. Page 219 1 MR. REDWINE: And just so the record's 2 clear, I'm also a member of the Environmental 3 Commission here in town. I have a few questions 4 about some of the testimony and other questions that 5 I've heard tonight. 6 MS. DePALMA: Put the mic to your 7 mouth. 8 MR. REDWINE: One thing I haven't 9 heard is whether there's an analysis of particular 10 plants that are present at the site. 11 MR. ANDERSON: We haven't done an 12 inventory of the existing plants. There's probably 13 many invasive plants associated with it, but I don't 14 have a list of them. 15 MR. REDWINE: Has there been any 16 analysis of native species that are present? 17 MR. ANDERSON: No, not by my office. 18 MR. REDWINE: Or any analysis of 19 plants that may be threatened or endangered that are 20 present on the site? 21 MR. ANDERSON: Not by my office. 22 MR. REDWINE: Okay, I had heard some 23 questions and commentary about the animals that are 24 on the site and recently one of the questions was 25 about a plan for the animals that are currently on Page 220 1 the site, what would happen with them. I understand 2 your testimony to be that there isn't currently a 3 plan to move or displace the animals that are 4 currently there relying on the forest. 5 MR. ANDERSON: Well, we would not have 6 them inside the gated area but there's a lot of 7 possibilities with the deer fencing where it's big 8 enough, has

re 4 currently there relying on the forest. 5 MR. ANDERSON: Well, we would not have 6 them inside the gated area but there's a lot of 7 possibilities with the deer fencing where it's big 8 enough, has a mesh big enough for -- to keep the 9 deer out but to let the other animals enter, so 10 there's possibilities like that that have not been 11 fleshed out in terms of complete design. 12 MR. REDWINE: Okay, and the deer fence 13 is intended to regenerate the forest that's 14 surrounded by that fencing, correct? 15 MR. ANDERSON: Allow for seeds to drop 16 from adjacent areas from the plantings that we're 17 doing and, you know, and adjacent developments and 18 to seed that area with understory. 19 MR. REDWINE: So assuming that the 20 deer and other animals that are there would move to 21 adjacent properties, has there been an analysis of 22 the damage that could reasonably be anticipated from 23 the movement of those animals and feeding on the 24 plants that are present on other properties? 25 MR. ANDERSON: Not by my office. Page 221 1 MR. REDWINE: On the DEP applications, 2 the permits and applications that are before the 3 DEP, is there a schedule for public comment that 4 you're aware of or meetings that the public could 5 attend to similarly ask questions or make comments? 6 MR. ANDERSON: I don't know of any 7 scheduled meetings. I'm sure you can make comments 8 at any time regarding our application. It seems 9 like they get comments regularly. 10 MR. REDWINE: And then the last thing 11 that I have is really addressed to you, Mr. 12 Chairman. The Environmental Commission sent a 13 letter to the Planning Board and I would ask 14 permission to read it into the record, if it's 15 appropriate at this time to do that. 16 MS. McGOVERN: Well, I remember that 17 we got it, but I don't know that it's appropriate to 18 read a letter. If it's your testimony -- 19 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: We can't hear 20 you. 21 MR. REDWINE: So just to clarify, I'm 22 not the Chairman of the Environmental Commission. 23 He advised me that it was sent to the members of the 24 Planning Board today. 25 MS. McGOVERN: Oh, today? The

57 (Pages 222 to 225) Page 222 1 Planning Board can't take any extraneous 2 information, it has to be done at the hearing. 3 You're here and are you tasked with -- did you write 4 this letter? Is this a position that your 5 organization is taking that you want to put on the 6 record? Is that what this is? Because that would 7 come to public comment at the end. Right now, we're 8 just doing questions. 9 MR. REDWINE: Okay. That's what I 10 thought you'd say but I told them that I would ask 11 so I've asked. Thank you. 12 MR. PLOCKER: And on behalf of the 13 applicant, I would just ask that if there is any 14 letter issued to the Board regarding the 15 application, that the applicant be provided a copy. 16 MS. McGOVERN: Absolutely. 17 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you. 18 MR. AFRAN: The objector would ask the 19 same. 20 MR. FAGAN: Mr. Chairman, please be 21 advised that we were able to restore the Zoom video 22 feed during Mr. Redline's testimony. 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 24 MR. FAGAN: Apparently, somebody had 25 kicked the plug out by accident. Page 223 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Okay. 2 And just so the public knows, we don't -- we don't 3 forward letters to members of the Planning Board 4 about an application that is before us. It is not 5 in the best interest of the Board and the public, it 6 violates the Open Public Meetings Act, Open Public 7 Records Act. So anything that is given to the 8 attorney, somebody must come and testify in the 9 public under oath about what they have to say; 10 otherwise, you can bring things, as Ms. McGovern 11 said, during the comments section. So if you want 12 the Board to hear something, it has to go to the 13 applicant, it has to go to our attorney, they'll 14 both decide if it's information that the Board needs 15 to hear, and then we will ask the maker of that 16 letter to come before us. That's the way it works. 17 It's in everybody's best interest. Thank you. 18 Yes, sir. Please state your name and 19 spell your last name. 20 MR. SHARENOW: Bob Sharenow, 21 S-H-A-R-E-N-O-W. I'm a resident of the Highlands 22 for 26 years. 23 Are you aware -- and maybe the lawyer 24 more so -- are you aware that the Board of the West 25 Essex Highlands was told a few years ago when this Page 224 1 started that a judge said to the town of West Orange 2 "You need Mount Laurel housing. We have a developer 3 who has a piece of property and

sex Highlands was told a few years ago when this Page 224 1 started that a judge said to the town of West Orange 2 "You need Mount Laurel housing. We have a developer 3 who has a piece of property and there's nothing you 4 can do about it," and you as a Board, as a Board, 5 can't do any opposition to this project," and the 6 Board still believes that. Do you know anything 7 about that? 8 MR. PLOCKER: I'll just address it. I 9 believe the comment and it really wasn't a question, 10 was that a judge told the Board and I'm aware of any 11 conversations -- 12 MR. SHARENOW: No, not the judge 13 telling the Board. The judge told the town that 14 "You gotta let the developer build because you're 15 short of affordable housing." 16 MR. PLOCKER: Yeah, I can't -- I don't 17 think anybody from us can testify to that and I do 18 know that mediation and settlement negotiations 19 themselves are confidential and part of the legal 20 process, especially ones where the court or the 21 court Special Master was involved. 22 MR. SHARENOW: Okay. Well, our Board 23 never did anything. 24 Do you know that the developer, your 25 bosses, in approximately 2004/2005, put in an Page 225 1 application or a process to build 138 homes on this 2 property? 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, stop right 4 there. That's not part of this application. That's 5 not part of this application, Mr. Anderson didn't 6 testify to that. If you want to say something, 7 that's in public comment, sir. Right now, you may 8 ask if, when, why, what, where, how, which; that's 9 what you ask Mr. Anderson about his testimony, 10 please. 11 MR. SHARENOW: Okay. Are you aware of 12 the changing of what they asked for, the reasons why 13 they were turned down for their 138? Is that 14 allowed to be asked? 15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That is not -- I'm 16 sorry, sir. That is not part of this application -- 17 MR. SHARENOW: Okay, I just thought 18 they might have a reason because we're dealing with 19 the fire engines not being able to get in. 20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm not allowing 21 that. 22 MR. SHARENOW: Okay. 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: It has nothing to do 24 with this application, it's a totally different 25 application.