July 30, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

ne you showed us. Page 68 1 MR. ANDERSON: This one? 2 MR. ALPER: Yeah, I think so. 3 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, okay. 4 MR. ALPER: Can you zoom in on that? 5 Yeah, that's good enough, I think. 6 Could a fire truck that comes in from 7 Warner and goes around the circle and goes too far 8 and needs to turn around because, you know, they 9 thought they had to go further for some reason but 10 they need to come back, is there a way for them to 11 turn around, because there's no circle down on the 12 Kuzik end of this. Can they do it in the -- is that 13 the maintenance or kennel parking lot; is there 14 space there? 15 MR. ANDERSON: They can certainly turn 16 around as a K-turn in that parking lot, but I just 17 anticipated that they will be going out Kuzik Drive. 18 MR. ALPER: Right, but -- they could 19 certainly leave after the event via Kuzik, but my 20 concern is that if they go too far and need to come 21 back, that they shouldn't have to go all the way 22 down Kuzik and then turn and then come back up 23 Warner and go all the way around the circle to get 24 to the corner of Building A, if that's Building A on 25 the bottom half there. So I think we would want to Page 69 1 see a turning radius that shows that they could do a 2 turn in the parking lot of the maintenance/kennel 3 and/or add another way to make sure that that turn 4 around can happen. 5 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. I got it. 6 MR. ALPER: And also on fire, and I 7 know a lot of times, these reviews happen later, but 8 because this is, you know, all new construction with 9 the new water system, will the fire department be 10 getting a chance -- are there hydrants diagrammed? 11 MR. ANDERSON: There are hydrants on 12 the plan of every building -- 13 MR. ALPER: Okay. 14 MR. ANDERSON: -- and we do not show 15 fire department connections yet, but that would 16 require the fire chief's input as to where he wanted 17 them. 18 MR. ALPER: Gotch ya. I think my next 19 thing is, the body of water to the left is Canoe 20 Brook and its tributary? 21 MR. ANDERSON: What -- I'm sorry. 22 MR. ALPER: The body of water on the 23 left side of the plan. 24 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, Canoe Brook 25 tributary is to the right, Canoe Brook is to the

19 (Pages 70 to 73) Page 70 1 left. 2 MR. ALPER: Okay. I believe that's 3 the reservoir source for New Jersey water, so I'm 4 wondering if they weigh in on a project like this, 5 if that's DEP's responsibility. 6 MR. ANDERSON: I don't know if they 7 weigh in or not; I've never seen them weigh in on 8 any of our past applications for this. We have a 9 very minor impact in terms of that wetland area over 10 there, I mean, we just have one headwall from the 11 discharge from Basin 1 in that location. 12 MR. ALPER: So it shouldn't be the 13 case that any construction debris or anything would 14 end up in the waterway. 15 MR. ANDERSON: Should not. 16 MR. ALPER: On the stormwater water 17 discharge on that, I know you say, you know, 18 obviously, you have to reduce the current discharge, 19 but the current discharge is from nature, right? So 20 it's the trees and the soil and the waste of the 21 animals that live on the site. 22 MR. ANDERSON: Right. 23 MR. ALPER: When that changes and the 24 runoff becomes, you know, what's in the parking lots 25 in oil and the residue from human habitation, how Page 71 1 does that figure into the calculations -- 2 MR. ANDERSON: So -- 3 MR. ALPER: -- and the requirements? 4 MR. ANDERSON: It's not a volume 5 calculation. Part of the design is -- there's three 6 parameters, there's water quality, water quantity, 7 the discharge rate and groundwater discharge. So 8 there are green technologies associated with various 9 stormwater management devices, so small-scale 10 infiltration basins are considered green technology. 11 The water comes in and it has a pretreatment device 12 for each surface basin and then it absorbs water 13 into the ground and also has water quality elements 14 in the basin itself. Okay? And then the water that 15 is actually discharged to the outlet structure is to 16 have 80 percent suspended solids removed from it 17 prior to it discharging. So the design includes 18 that kind of technology. 19 In the case of the large-scale 20 detention basin that we have that goes to Canoe 21 Brook, that -- a large-scale does not provide the 22 water quality element so we had to have 80 percent 23 removal with filtration devices prior to the 24 discharge into the basin, so the oils and greases or 25 whatever you're finding from the site goes through, Page 72 1 in this case, we've used a Filterra, which is a tree 2 planter and

prior to the 24 discharge into the basin, so the oils and greases or 25 whatever you're finding from the site goes through, Page 72 1 in this case, we've used a Filterra, which is a tree 2 planter and a medium and the water goes through and 3 filters through the medium, and then once it's 4 filtered through, it goes down to the basin for 5 quantity control, and so that's how that's handled. 6 MR. ALPER: Okay. 7 MR. ANDERSON: The porous pavement 8 systems are similar, they are -- they are green 9 technology for quantity, quality and groundwater 10 recharge, so those other ones that are up on the top 11 of the hill on those parking lots take care of 12 themselves independently at the top of the hill. 13 MR. ALPER: Got it. On the trees, the 14 number you said, 5,904, is that the number that's 15 actually being removed or is that the obligation 16 that you need to replace? Because I thought you had 17 given a formula 212 trees per acre times 27 point -- 18 acres and that is where the 5904 came from; I wasn't 19 sure if that was the exact same number that was also 20 coming down. 21 MR. ANDERSON: So there was an 22 estimate of the amount of trees in the forest based 23 on a study done years ago and it was decided to put 24 into the ordinance a 212 trees per acre, and the 25 replacement was based on a one-for-one tree Page 73 1 replacement -- 2 MR. ALPER: Got it. 3 MR. ANDERSON: -- and we have -- let 4 me just get my number right. We have the 27.85 5 acres of disturbance and we have -- let me find it 6 -- we have 5,904 trees required to be replaced based 7 on the 212 times the acreage, and so that's what we 8 have to replace. 9 MR. ALPER: Got it. 10 MR. ANDERSON: And they also gave a 11 similar credit to the deer fencing, 212 per acre. 12 MR. ALPER: So it's 212 per acre of 13 deer fencing? 14 MR. ANDERSON: For the -- yes, for the 15 placement of deer fencing, correct. 16 MR. ALPER: So each acre of deer 17 fencing counts as 212 trees -- 18 MR. ANDERSON: Correct. 19 MR. ALPER: -- though it's not, 20 obviously, any -- one tree, let alone -- 21 MR. ANDERSON: It's not adding trees, 22 it's just making that portion of the forest 23 healthier. 24 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: No way. 25 MR. ALPER: Okay. That's all I got.

20 (Pages 74 to 77) Page 74 1 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: No way. 2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Mr. 3 Wilkes. 4 MR. WILKES: Yes. Going back to the 5 emergency vehicles, you had mentioned that, you 6 know, possibly doing a K-turn or anything like that, 7 but you said you also -- you guys have not spoken to 8 the fire department as of yet. What other basis do 9 you guys use to create a plan like this? Because if 10 you don't talk to them at all, are you putting 11 emergency vehicles in, fire hydrants; how did you 12 base this whole plan off of not talking to them at 13 all and knowing location of hospitals or anything 14 like that? 15 MR. ANDERSON: Well, we have a water 16 system that goes through the entire site. We put 17 hydrants periodically but we put -- 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry. 19 MR. ANDERSON: I'm sorry. It's just 20 difficult to get this close. 21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I know, I know. 22 MR. ANDERSON: I'm trying. 23 MR. WILKES: The air-conditioning, 24 too, doesn't help. 25 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: You need to Page 75 1 project your voice. 2 MR. ANDERSON: So we have a waterline 3 that goes all the way through the site and we put 4 hydrants where they are necessary for each building, 5 you know, and we have -- it's very possible that the 6 fire chief says that's fine but I want one more, I 7 want an extra one. That's fine; when we talk to 8 him, we would add an extra hydrant, similar to what 9 I just said previously, is we don't know where the 10 fire department connection would be, where they 11 would want it or sprinkler systems in the building, 12 so we'd have to talk to him and then place the fire 13 department connection where they could pressurize 14 the sprinkler system in the building where they want 15 it. 16 MR. WILKES: Well, I was really asking 17 also -- that's good to know, but just the basis of 18 it, because based on their location, wouldn't you 19 want the ingress egress closer to where they would 20 be coming in at or where they would get to the 21 situation faster? Why is that not considered? If 22 you haven't spoken to them -- that's what I'm trying 23 to get to. If you haven't spoken to them, how do 24 you create a plan like this and then, all of a 25 sudden, he comes in, he or she comes in, and says Page 76 1 "Well, I want to change it so that you're closer to 2 our fire department, let us have an interest that 3 way," you'll just change

l of a 25 sudden, he comes in, he or she comes in, and says Page 76 1 "Well, I want to change it so that you're closer to 2 our fire department, let us have an interest that 3 way," you'll just change it? 4 MR. ANDERSON: So very often when we 5 have a review of this, we get a review from your 6 municipal engineer, your planner, your environmental 7 scientist, other -- your traffic engineer, and we 8 also get a review from police and fire, but I don't 9 have reviews from police and fire. 10 MR. WILKES: Okay. 11 MR. ANDERSON: So at that time -- so I 12 would expect that I would get those reviews and then 13 I would respond to it. If I have to meet with him, 14 I would meet with him. If I don't have to meet with 15 him, I could just comply and do whatever he's 16 asking. Typically, the comments are adding an extra 17 hydrant or moving it slightly, things of that 18 nature, providing fire-zone striping along the curb 19 line; those are typical comments that require their 20 input. 21 MR. WILKES: Okay. Well, I'm sure 22 we'll come back to that, but also you did testify -- 23 Council President asked you about some of the other 24 animals in the area, you did testify about the deer 25 in the area. Why is it that we don't have anything Page 77 1 known about the other animals? You mentioned the 2 deer fence, you mentioned that the deer were doing 3 damage in some of the areas. Why is it that we 4 don't have any knowledge of any other animals in the 5 area that you testified to? 6 MR. ANDERSON: It's just -- it's not 7 really an engineering question. 8 MR. WILKES: Okay. 9 MR. ANDERSON: It's something the 10 environmental scientists for this application with 11 DEP would have a better handle on. 12 MR. WILKES: Okay. 13 MR. ANDERSON: I know they did various 14 studies, bat studies and things, they didn't find 15 anything in danger, they approved all those things. 16 I'm sure you have a standard amount of animals in 17 this area that you would in any forest in -- in 18 northern New Jersey. 19 MR. WILKES: Okay. No more questions 20 right now. 21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Mr. 22 Morgan. 23 MR. MORGAN: Yes. Can you hear me all 24 right? 25 (Members of the public say "yes.")

21 (Pages 78 to 81) Page 78 1 MR. MORGAN: Thank you. 2 Mr. Anderson, thank you for your time. 3 A number of my concerns, you've already discussed 4 thus far, parking, fire, truck access, wetlands -- 5 (Court reporter advises Mr. Morgan that she 6 cannot hear him.) 7 MR. MORGAN: I'll try, but I'm 8 muffled. 9 Undisturbed areas, steep slopes, et 10 cetera, et cetera. So my question has been reduced 11 to this one: Does the settlement agreement provided 12 provide a required duration of care to protect the 13 newly planted trees and understory until they reach 14 maturity? 15 MR. ANDERSON: Let me see if I 16 understand your question. Does the settlement 17 agreement provide the care for this, of the trees? 18 MR. MORGAN: A duration of care, like 19 a time period. 20 MR. ANDERSON: I don't recall seeing 21 that, but that's fairly standard language. Any time 22 you have a development, you're required to, you 23 know, make sure the trees are growing for two years 24 or more, so that would be fairly standard language, 25 but I'm not sure I recall it in the settlement Page 79 1 agreement. 2 MR. MORGAN: Okay, just something of 3 note. Thank you. 4 MR. ANDERSON: Sure. 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Cardoza. 6 MR. CARDOZA: Hello. Thank you, Mr. 7 Chairman. 8 I am interested in hearing more from 9 the -- or something from the traffic engineer 10 regarding specifically the proposed gates versus the 11 vehicle access and sidewalks coming up, but other 12 than that, I think that my fellow Board members have 13 had some excellent questions, no questions at this 14 time. 15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, Mr. 16 Cardoza. Ms. Kapferer. 17 MS. KAPFERER: Thank you, Mr. 18 Chairman. Hi, Mr. Anderson. 19 MR. ANDERSON: Hello. 20 MS. KAPFERER: Could you comment on 21 the stormwater management rules of -- like, what 22 generation are you required to use for this project? 23 MR. ANDERSON: Well, we are re -- we 24 are -- because of the time of our application to 25 DEP, we are -- we are on the old standard. Page 80 1 MS. KAPFERER: Okay, like 2021, is 2 that what you -- 3 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 4 MS. KAPFERER: Okay. 5 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. We are on -- we 6 are grandfathered to the older standard. 7 MS. KAPFERER: Okay. And then did you 8 have geotechnical testing done for this project? 9 Did you -- 10 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, we did. 11 MS. KAPFERER: Okay. For the porous 12 pavement and the other

rd. 7 MS. KAPFERER: Okay. And then did you 8 have geotechnical testing done for this project? 9 Did you -- 10 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, we did. 11 MS. KAPFERER: Okay. For the porous 12 pavement and the other infrastructure? 13 MR. ANDERSON: The geotechnical 14 testing was for multiple purposes but primarily for 15 soil borings for stormwater management. 16 MS. KAPFERER: Okay. And can you 17 comment at all on your findings related to the depth 18 to high groundwater? It appears that it was 19 suitable based on the fact that you are proposing 20 less pavement, but, you know, is it 10 feet below 21 the ground surface, I mean, did it vary a lot across 22 the site. 23 MR. ANDERSON: It varies significantly 24 throughout the site, and in each distance, we're 25 obligated to keep a two-foot distance between the Page 81 1 seasonal high-groundwater level that was found in 2 any of the borings within the porous pavement system 3 and the bottom of the system, so we -- we have done 4 that. 5 MS. KAPFERER: Okay. And are you 6 providing any sort of filtration or anything like 7 that? I think you commented on green connections 8 directly to the porous pavement. 9 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, we will have some 10 kind of leaf-guard system on the building itself to 11 prevent the leaves from getting into the porous 12 pavement system. 13 MS. KAPFERER: Can you say more about 14 the DEP permits? Which -- what permits are you 15 applying for for this application? 16 MR. ANDERSON: Well, we have FHA 17 permits for riparian zone disturbance and we have 18 wetlands crossing, I believe it's a 10B wetlands 19 crossing, and there's also permits associated with 20 stormwater discharges. 21 MS. KAPFERER: Okay. And then -- 22 yeah, I was going to ask questions about -- similar 23 to others who were asking about capacity, whether 24 the capacities provided for water and sewer, whether 25 you've received letters, but it sounds like you're

22 (Pages 82 to 85) Page 82 1 going to request those at a later time; is that 2 correct? 3 MR. ANDERSON: We are. 4 MS. KAPFERER: Okay. Can you comment 5 on any provisions regarding pedestrian safety, like 6 sidewalks or crosswalks, anything like that, that 7 you have proposed on the site? 8 MR. ANDERSON: So we have crosswalks, 9 there will be signage associated with crosswalks. 10 Your planner's report indicated a desire to have 11 traffic calming measures and we agree with that. We 12 would love to add traffic calming measures to make 13 it safer, to add additional pedestrian sidewalks 14 crossing from one side to the other so that people 15 in the western section of the development could get 16 to the clubhouse with an -- over, you know, an 17 accessible walkway, so those are all things that we 18 are very happy to do. We want this to be a walkable 19 section of the community. We have extensive wooded 20 area, there's existing natural trails that go 21 through there that we assume that people will enjoy 22 walking on in the future, so we do have sidewalks 23 throughout development. 24 MS. KAPFERER: And can you tell us a 25 bit more about the proposed deer fencing and how Page 83 1 that works? Is it something, just a high fence that 2 keeps deer out or it... 3 MR. ANDERSON: Essentially. It's an 4 eight- to ten-foot-high fence that is placed around 5 -- in the vicinity where we're showing on the plan 6 and it keeps deer from coming in and overbrowsing on 7 the vegetation. 8 MS. KAPFERER: And has any thought 9 been given to, like, what happens to the deer that 10 are currently in that area, like where they may go? 11 That might not be in your area. 12 MR. ANDERSON: It's not, I'm just 13 trying to develop a plan that follows the ordinance 14 and these are all provisions that were thought 15 favorably of in the negotiations for the development 16 of this ordinance and the settlement agreement and 17 -- so we have implemented those into our plan. 18 MS. KAPFERER: And I think someone, I 19 think it was you, shared something about that the 20 current -- the forest has been classified as being 21 in poor condition. Is that based on a report that 22 an expert provided or where does that come from? 23 MR. ANDERSON: I believe it's in the 24 settlement agreement, number one, and it was based 25 on an evaluation by an arborist and the town's Page 84 1 environmental

ded or where does that come from? 23 MR. ANDERSON: I believe it's in the 24 settlement agreement, number one, and it was based 25 on an evaluation by an arborist and the town's Page 84 1 environmental professionals who walked the site with 2 us on -- during the negotiation period and looked at 3 the existing conditions, and in their opinion, as 4 forestry people, it was a poor condition. 5 MS. KAPFERER: Okay. I have no 6 further questions at this time. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, Ms. 8 Kapferer. Mr. Hess, Board engineer. 9 MR. HESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I 10 have two questions, if I may, Paul. The first is -- 11 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: We can't hear. 12 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: We can't hear. 13 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: We can't hear. 14 MR. HESS: Any better? 15 (Members of the public say "yes.") 16 MR. HESS: Okay. I have two 17 questions, if you will. The first is, you testified 18 that you have a letter of interpretation or an LOI 19 from DEP. Could a copy of that be provided to the 20 Board and that would show the Board what the, um, 21 what the classification is? 22 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 23 MR. HESS: Okay. So I think that will 24 be helpful for the Board to see that. 25 Second is, we issued a traffic letter Page 85 1 and also an engineering letter on the project and 2 there were a fair number of comments in the letter. 3 I assume you agree that you'll work with our office 4 on resolving all of those issues? 5 MR. ANDERSON: I do. 6 MR. HESS: Okay. That's the biggest 7 concern I have, I want to make sure the comments get 8 addressed. And I think it's important for the Board 9 to see a copy of the LOI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, Mr. Hess. 11 Mr. Haizel, the Board Professional Planner. 12 MR. HAIZEL: Yes. Mr. Anderson, you 13 did discuss the pedestrian circulation throughout 14 the site, which was one of my concerns. Can you 15 address the issue. 16 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: Can't hear you. 17 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: Can't hear you. 18 MR. HAIZEL: Sorry. Could you address 19 the issue related to the Warner Road where the 20 sidewalk sort of -- 21 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 22 MR. HAIZEL: -- flips over to the 23 other side? 24 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. There was one 25 comment in your report that questioned why I, just

23 (Pages 86 to 89) Page 86 1 to the east of -- to the south of the traffic 2 circle, I crossed the roadway with a sidewalk and 3 where I go from one side to the other and that is 4 because that sidewalk on the east side would line up 5 with the sidewalk that is proposed in -- on Warner 6 Road within the condominium association property. 7 MR. HAIZEL: Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Are you done, Mr. 9 Haizel? 10 MR. HAIZEL: Um-hum. 11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Mr. 12 Afran. Any questions, sir? 13 MR. AFRAN: Yes. I just need one 14 moment, I'm sorry. 15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: No problem. 16 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Mr. Chair, 17 while he's getting ready, can I ask two follow-ups? 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry. Yes, 19 Council President, go right ahead, sir. 20 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Thank you. I 21 can't remember which of my colleagues brought it up 22 but someone mentioned there were some surveys done 23 with regard to animals in the forest here. 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, sir. 25 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Was one of Page 87 1 those for the Indiana bat? 2 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, it was. 3 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: And what was 4 the result of that? 5 MR. ANDERSON: I believe it was 6 negative, there was no Indiana bats. 7 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: In that letter 8 of interpretation that was just discussed, our -- 9 Mr. Hess brought up and asked you to forward it to 10 us, when was that drafted or sent to you? 11 MR. ANDERSON: I don't know the exact 12 date; it's probably three or four years ago. 13 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: And then Ms. 14 Kapferer referenced different stormwater management 15 standards and so are you clear on -- can you tell, 16 are you -- I wasn't sure if you were sure that the 17 '21 standards are the ones that govern here. Are 18 they? 19 MR. ANDERSON: They are. There was 20 new regulations presented and after we made our 21 application -- after we made our application and 22 they do not apply to our application of the DEP. 23 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So -- and are 24 the -- are the newer standards stricter, are they -- 25 or how are -- how -- are there any major differences Page 88 1 that would affect this development between the newer 2 standards and the '21 standards? 3 MR. ANDERSON: There are differences 4 in the standard and many people say they are 5 stricter. I don't know what the impact would be 6 with this development. We have numerous locations 7 where