July 31, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

Page 1 TOWNSHIP OF WEST ORANGE PLANNING BOARD SPECIAL MEETING __________________________ : IN THE MATTER OF: : TRANSCRIPT : OF PB-24-01 : PROCEEDINGS WEST ESSEX HIGHLANDS, INC.: BLOCK: 179, LOT: 32, : ZONE: IH-1 : __________________________: WEDNESDAY, JULY 31, 2024 TOWNSHIP OF WEST ORANGE 66 MAIN STREET WEST ORANGE, NJ 07052 COMMENCING AT 6:34 P.M. BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT: DR. ROBERT BAGOFF, Chairman JERRY GUARINO, Vice Chairman MAYOR SUSAN McCARTNEY BILL RUTHERFORD, Council President KEN ALPER WILLIAM B. WILKES II LEE D. KLEIN, P.E., PTOE JOHN R. CARDOZA (Alternate #1) LORI KAPFERER (Alternate #2) ALSO PRESENT: JAMILET BAQUERIZO VITE, Board Secretary JOHN J. HESS, P.E., P.P., Consulting Engineer GERALD M. HAIZEL, P.P., Consulting Planner GENIECE GARY-ADAMS, Zoning Official JOSEPH FAGAN, Zoom Moderator STENOGRAPHICALLY REPORTED BY: MICHELE QUICK, CCR, RMR, CRR NJ Licensed Court Reporter Magna Legal Services 866-624-6221

2 (Pages 2 to 5) Page 2 1 A P P E A R A N C E S: 2 GACCIONE POMACO, P.C. 3 1 Boland Drive West Orange, New Jersey 07052 4 BY: DIANA POWELL-McGOVERN, ESQ. Attorneys for the Board 5 6 HUTT, SHIMANOWITZ & PLOCKER, P.C. 459 Amboy Avenue 7 Woodbridge, New Jersey 07095 BY: BRYAN D. PLOCKER, ESQ. 8 bplocker@huttshim.com Attorneys for the Applicant 9 10 BRUCE I. AFRAN, ESQ. 10 Braeburn Drive 11 Princeton, New Jersey 08540 Attorney for Objector, We Care NJ Corp. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 3 1 I N D E X 2 APPLICANT'S WITNESSES: SWORN 3 PAUL ANDERSON, P.E. 9 4 LAURANCE APPEL, P.A. 64 5 MARK HOFFMAN 150 6 7 BOARD'S WITNESSES: 8 JOHN J. HESS, P.E., P.P. 6 9 GERARD M. HAIZEL, P.P. 6 10 11 EXHIBITS MARKED INTO EVIDENCE 12 13 NUMBER DESCRIPTION PAGE 14 O-1 Report submitted by Peter Tenkate, P.E. 52 15 A-1 PowerPoint prepared and presented 16 by Paul Anderson, P.E. 66 17 A-2 PowerPoint prepared and presented by Laurance Appel, P.A. 66 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page 4 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Good evening, ladies 2 and gentlemen, and welcome to the Planning Board 3 meeting. Notice of this meeting was given to the 4 township clerk and posted on the township bulletin 5 board and township website calendar and sent to the 6 West Orange Chronicle and The Star Ledger. This 7 meeting has been properly noticed to the public in 8 accordance with the Open Public Meetings Act. No 9 new matters will start after 10:30 p.m. 10 I'll ask all of you to rise for the 11 Pledge of Allegiance. 12 (The Pledge of Allegiance is recited.) 13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. I'd also 14 like to welcome everybody who's on Zoom watching the 15 meeting. The next regular Planning Board meeting 16 will be held August 7, 2024 at 7:30 p.m. via Zoom. 17 Jamilet, roll call, please. 18 MS. BAQUERIZO VITE: Mr. Alper? 19 MR. ALPER: Here. 20 MS. BAQUERIZO VITE: Mr. Cardoza? 21 MR. CARDOZA: Present. 22 MS. BAQUERIZO VITE: Mrs. Kapferer? 23 MS. KAPFERER: Here. 24 MS. BAQUERIZO VITE: Mr. Klein? 25 MR. KLEIN: Here. Page 5 1 MS. BAQUERIZO VITE: Mr. Morgan? Mr. 2 Wilkes? 3 MR. WILKES: Here. 4 MS. BAQUERIZO VITE: Council President 5 Rutherford? 6 COUNCIL PRESIDENT RUTHERFORD: Here. 7 MS. BAQUERIZO VITE: Mayor McCartney? 8 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Present. 9 MS. BAQUERIZO VITE: Mr. Guarino? 10 VICE-CHAIRMAN GUARINO: Here. 11 MS. BAQUERIZO VITE: Chairman Bagoff? 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Here. Thank you. 13 MR. KLEIN:

yor McCartney? 8 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Present. 9 MS. BAQUERIZO VITE: Mr. Guarino? 10 VICE-CHAIRMAN GUARINO: Here. 11 MS. BAQUERIZO VITE: Chairman Bagoff? 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Here. Thank you. 13 MR. KLEIN: Chairman? 14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Klein. 15 MR. KLEIN: Can I hand in my 16 certification -- 17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes. 18 MR. KLEIN: -- that I listened to last 19 night's meeting? 20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes. So this is a 21 certification that Mr. Klein listened to last 22 night's meeting and can participate in the meeting 23 going forward. 24 Ms. McGovern, will you swear in the 25 township professionals, please.

3 (Pages 6 to 9) Page 6 1 J O H N J. H E S S, P. E., P. P., Consulting 2 Engineer, is duly sworn/affirmed by the Board 3 attorney. 4 G E R A R D M. H A I Z E L, P. P., Consulting 5 Planner, is duly sworn/affirmed by the Board 6 attorney. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Ladies 8 and gentlemen, housekeeping. So some people have 9 been asking about public comments. The way the 10 meeting works is the applicant presents their case 11 and they have their professionals explaining parts 12 of the application. Each time, the public or the 13 representative of groups of the public may come up 14 and ask the questions of the person presenting that 15 portion of the application. At the end of the 16 entire meeting when all is said and done, the public 17 will have time to comment. The public can then, at 18 their time, come up and say "I like this," "I don't 19 like this," "I love it," "It makes sense," "This is 20 how I feel about it." So we just want to keep 21 things streamlined and within the reason of how 22 things go. If anybody has a question, please raise 23 your hand at the appropriate time and I'll be happy 24 to answer it. 25 The other thing is with the decorum; Page 7 1 clapping, yelling and everything else is nice, we 2 appreciate that you are very, very interested in 3 this application and all applications before the 4 Planning Board. We'll expect you to keep that to a 5 minimum as we keep the meeting going forward, with 6 the idea that the public and the Planning Board 7 hears the information at hand, and your comments and 8 questions. 9 So to that end, PB-24-01, West Essex 10 Highlands, Incorporated, Block 179, Lot 32, IH-1 11 zone, Warner Road. The applicant is proposing to 12 develop a 496-unit inclusionary multifamily 13 residential development on a vacant 120-property -- 14 acre property in the northwest corner of the 15 Township of West Orange. 16 For the applicant, Mr. Plocker. 17 MR. PLOCKER: Good evening, Chairman 18 Bagoff. 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Good evening. 20 MR. PLOCKER: Mr. Anderson, our 21 engineer, testified yesterday. We intend on calling 22 our architect shortly, but there is a small portion 23 of testimony that Mr. Anderson needs to revisit. 24 There was some discussion and some questions about 25 which version of the DEP stormwater regulations Page 8 1 apply to this application. Mr. Anderson testified 2 that the drainage portion of that

24 There was some discussion and some questions about 25 which version of the DEP stormwater regulations Page 8 1 apply to this application. Mr. Anderson testified 2 that the drainage portion of that application had 3 been withdrawn. We confirm that that actually was 4 not the case and that the old regulations apply, and 5 very briefly, Mr. Anderson is going to address that 6 issue. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 8 Okay, ladies and gentlemen, Mr. 9 Anderson is still under oath as he testifies before 10 the meeting [sic], and at the end, you will be able 11 to ask questions of him based on what he testifies 12 to this evening. 13 Mr. Anderson, you have the floor, and 14 the Board has voir dired him. That means that we 15 have listened to his bona fides, we have accepted 16 him as an expert in the field and he now has the 17 floor. 18 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you, Mr. 19 Chairman. 20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: One more thing. If 21 you can't hear in the back, please raise your hand. 22 You don't have to jump up, I'm looking, we're all 23 looking. We want everybody to hear. Thank you all 24 very much, and go right ahead, sir. 25 MR. ANDERSON: I will try to speak up, Page 9 1 do my part too. 2 P A U L A N D E R S O N, P. E., was previously 3 sworn/affirmed by the Board attorney. 4 MR. ANDERSON: So when I was 5 discussing the pulling of the DEP application, what 6 we need to clarify is we pulled the FHA individual 7 permit portion of it, the wetlands permit and the 8 stormwater analysis that goes along with it remained 9 active, and therefore, we were grandfathered under 10 the old stormwater standards and that's how we got 11 there. We re-submitted the original flood hazard 12 permit and it is being reviewed along with the 13 wetlands and stormwater plan. 14 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you, Mr. Anderson. 15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That's it? 16 MR. PLOCKER: That's it. 17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. 18 Okay. Council President, do you have 19 any questions for Mr. Anderson on his recent 20 testimony? 21 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Not at this 22 time -- not at this time, Mr. Chairman. 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, Council 24 President. Mr. Klein, do you have any questions? 25 MR. KLEIN: Not about tonight, but am

4 (Pages 10 to 13) Page 10 1 I allowed to ask questions about last night? 2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes. 3 MR. KLEIN: So Mr. Anderson, what is 4 the diameter of the -- I guess the outside radius or 5 the diameter of the roundabout circle inside and the 6 cul-de-sac at the end of, what is it, Building -- 7 the really long building, C or D? 8 UNIDENTIFIED VOID: D. 9 MR. KLEIN: D? 10 MR. ANDERSON: I know what you're 11 asking, Lee, but I don't know that I have that 12 information right now. It's -- it's -- I believe 13 it's a hundred feet -- 14 MR. KLEIN: Diameter? 15 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. 16 MR. KLEIN: So it's greater than 80 -- 17 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, it's -- 18 MR. KLEIN: -- RSIS for turning 19 around? 20 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. I demonstrated 21 last night the turning radius for a fire truck going 22 through, all the way through in either direction, 23 and turning in the cul-de-sac at the end of Road D 24 also. 25 MR. KLEIN: Okay. That was it. Page 11 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mayor McCartney, do 2 you have any questions for Mr. Anderson? 3 MAYOR McCARTNEY: No questions, but 4 thank you for the clarification on the DEP permit. 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Vice-Chairman 6 Guarino, do you have any questions? 7 VICE-CHAIRMAN GUARINO: None at this 8 time, Mr. Chairman. 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Mr. 10 Alper, do you have any questions? 11 MR. ALPER: I do have one holdover 12 from yesterday if that's all right. Assuming it 13 is -- 14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes. 15 MR. ALPER: -- on Building D, there's 16 underground parking on Building D? 17 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, there is. 18 MR. ALPER: If it appears necessary to 19 do blasting for Building D specifically for the 20 parking, who decides whether or not that's safe in 21 terms of the stability of the slope? Is that the 22 contractor? Is that the township? Is it DEP? Who 23 would that be? 24 MR. ANDERSON: I think the -- it's 25 more of an architectural and contractor Page 12 1 determination. The town's building department 2 certainly would be looking at it. When the 3 architect provides his testimony this evening, 4 you'll probably see some cross-sections and you'll 5 see that that building is set below grade 6 considerably and it really, in my opinion, is not 7 susceptible to sliding down towards Mayfair or any 8 failure like the other building that was in town, 9 but I think you'll have to see the exhibit to 10 actually appreciate what I'm -- what

is not 7 susceptible to sliding down towards Mayfair or any 8 failure like the other building that was in town, 9 but I think you'll have to see the exhibit to 10 actually appreciate what I'm -- what I'm saying. 11 MR. ALPER: Sure. That makes sense. 12 The concern that's in my head and, you know, as a 13 layman, it could be from nowhere, it's just that 14 blasting -- is it possible that blasting could -- 15 before anything is built, that blasting could 16 disturb the rock and cause a future problem, change 17 the condition of the site in a way that might not be 18 detectible if all the soil studies and everything 19 else have been completed? 20 MR. ANDERSON: Well, the blasters 21 obviously do it all the time and they do pre-blast 22 surveys and other things to identify the existing 23 conditions around the site and identify any 24 potential problems such as that. It's their 25 profession, they know all the real particulars of Page 13 1 how to do it. And I know this applicant has had 2 other projects where they have done blasting so they 3 have a good relationship with the people that do 4 that type of work. 5 MR. ALPER: Thank you. 6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, Mr. 7 Alper. Mr. Wilkes. 8 MR. WILKES: No additional questions. 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, Mr. 10 Wilkes. Mr. Cardoza? 11 MR. CARDOZA: No questions, Mr. Chair. 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, Mr. 13 Cardoza. Ms. Kapferer. 14 MS. KAPFERER: I have a holdover 15 question as well. 16 Regarding the porous pavement -- 17 MR. ANDERSON: Um-hum. 18 MS. KAPFERER: -- can you describe how 19 that will be maintained, like frequency and things 20 like that, and then also, who would be responsible 21 for maintaining it? 22 MR. ANDERSON: It would be the 23 applicant. Whoever is the owner of the property is 24 obligated to clean it periodically, usually we're 25 thinking two to three times a year, to get dust and

5 (Pages 14 to 17) Page 14 1 debris off of it. Also, they need to measure the 2 outlet structure after rainfalls periodically to see 3 whether it drains within 72 hours and it would all 4 be outlined in detail in a maintenance plan for not 5 only the porous pavement systems but for all of the 6 stormwater management systems. 7 MS. KAPFERER: Okay. And then one 8 question about the stormwater regulations. 9 MR. ANDERSON: Um-hum. 10 MS. KAPFERER: So do you have 11 something in writing from DEP that says that, you 12 know, you're grandfathered? 13 MR. ANDERSON: The environmental 14 attorney, I believe, has something, I don't have 15 anything on my record, but there has been some 16 e-mails back and forth that I've read myself that 17 say that, yes, we're going to go under this new 18 standard -- or the old standard is what still 19 applies, pardon me. 20 MS. KAPFERER: Okay. Is it 21 appropriate to request that? 22 MS. McGOVERN: Yes. 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes. Our attorney 24 will. 25 MS. KAPFERER: Okay, thank you. Page 15 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Hess, do you 2 have any questions? 3 MR. HESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 4 One question. If blasting is determined to be 5 necessary, would the applicant agree that they would 6 have the contractor submit a blasting plan, 7 including their proposal for monitoring for 8 vibrations and dust to ensure that they're not going 9 to cause problems in the surrounding area? 10 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 11 MR. HESS: Okay. 12 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, they would. 13 MR. HESS: And that could be submitted 14 to the township through -- I guess through the 15 engineering department. And the building 16 department. 17 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 18 MR. HESS: Okay. Thank you. 19 MS. McGOVERN: That can be a 20 condition. 21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes. 22 MS. McGOVERN: Okay, so the condition 23 is that -- sorry. The condition is that somebody 24 will submit -- what was it that you wanted, Mr. 25 Hess? Page 16 1 MR. HESS: A blasting plan. 2 MS. McGOVERN: Plan or application? 3 MR. HESS: A plan. 4 MS. McGOVERN: A plan? 5 MR. HESS: Yes. 6 MS. McGOVERN: Okay. 7 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Mr. Chairman, that 8 raises another question. 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mayor McCartney. 10 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Thank you. 11 So Mr. Anderson, that raises another 12 question. With the slope, will there be a study 13 conducted by a qualified professional geotechnical 14 engineer? 15 MR. ANDERSON: There has

NEY: Thank you. 11 So Mr. Anderson, that raises another 12 question. With the slope, will there be a study 13 conducted by a qualified professional geotechnical 14 engineer? 15 MR. ANDERSON: There has been 16 geotechnical studies completed on site -- 17 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Okay. 18 MR. ANDERSON: -- and within -- all 19 through that Building D area with both borings and 20 test pits, so there is geotechnical information 21 already available. 22 MAYOR McCARTNEY: And do we have that 23 information? 24 MR. HESS: I don't believe so. I 25 think that was an item that we had requested in our Page 17 1 review letter, if I'm not mistaken. 2 MR. ANDERSON: The recent review 3 letter? 4 MR. HESS: I believe so. 5 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, we have not 6 responded to it, but we have no objection to 7 submitting that. 8 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Thank you. Is that 9 a condition? 10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, we'll make that 11 a condition. 12 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Thank you. 13 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Mr. Chair? 14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Council President 15 Rutherford. 16 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Thank you. 17 Just a quick question. Why was the FHA permit 18 pulled? 19 MR. ANDERSON: Why was it pulled? 20 Because we were running out of time. There was 21 comments that needed time to be designed. We had a 22 90-day clock on the application and you're allowed 23 one 30-day extension, which we had granted, and the 24 feedback was coming in slowly and didn't leave 25 enough time to make adequate revisions.

6 (Pages 18 to 21) Page 18 1 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: How long ago 2 was that? 3 MR. ANDERSON: I don't know. Several 4 months ago. 5 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Has it been 6 re-submitted? 7 MR. ANDERSON: It was re-submitted 8 approximately three weeks ago. 9 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Thank you. 10 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Mr. 12 Afran, do you have any questions? 13 MR. AFRAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 14 Can you hear me? I'm sorry. 15 Thank you. Good evening, Mr. Chairman. 16 I don't have any questions, I just wanted to note 17 for the record that I opened this issue up yesterday 18 when I asked about the DEP permit being pulled, as 19 we had been advised through our expert that that had 20 occurred. One of my client's Board members received 21 an e-mail at 7:45 a.m. this morning from DEP -- 22 they're working hard -- essentially confirming what 23 Mr. Anderson has said. At this time, I'm taking no 24 position. If we look into it and have any other 25 questions, we'll raise them as we go further, but I Page 19 1 appreciate the clarification. 2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, Mr. 3 Afran. 4 Mr. Haizel, I bypassed you, I'm sorry. 5 MR. HAIZEL: I have no additional 6 questions at this time. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Mayor 8 McCartney. 9 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Mr. Anderson, one 10 more question talking about the blasting. When you 11 talk about the detention basin, will that require... 12 (indiscernible) 13 (Court reporter instruction) 14 MAYOR McCARTNEY: I'm asking if to 15 install the detention basins, would that potentially 16 -- 17 MR. ANDERSON: No. 18 MAYOR McCARTNEY: -- require blasting. 19 MR. ANDERSON: No, they should not 20 require any blasting for the detention systems. 21 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Okay. Thank you. 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Do any members of 23 the public have any questions? Please stand up, 24 come up to the front to the microphone, state your 25 name and spell your last name, please. Page 20 1 MR. SHARRET: Thank you. My name is 2 Jonathan Sharret, S-H-A-R-R-E-T. If I understood 3 what you were saying earlier, you said that part of 4 the DEP application was pulled and now is under new 5 regulations; is that correct? 6 MR. ANDERSON: No, it's actually just 7 the opposite. So we pulled -- partially pulled the 8 permit that we had, we pulled the FHA individual 9 permit, but we left active the wetlands permit and 10 the stormwater review