July 31, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

tion there, but I do know that we were just 19 discussing -- 20 MS. BENYO: The question was -- 21 (Public outburst) 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Woah, woah, woah. 23 MR. ANDERSON: Let me finish my 24 sentence, please. 25 So we just spoke a moment ago about

11 (Pages 38 to 41) Page 38 1 having, you know, the pre-blast survey and the 2 conditions associated controlled by the municipal 3 engineer and the building department, whoever is 4 appropriate, and to do those studies at the time of 5 construction, which is when those studies are 6 typically done. We do have borings all over that 7 hillside that indicate the depth of the bedrock. I 8 don't recall the nature of the bedrock itself, 9 whether they classified it as a specific rock type, 10 but they do have an understanding of where it is, 11 how deep it is, and I think with the safeguards that 12 were just requested and indicated that would be a 13 condition of approval, you know, if this project 14 moves forward, then I think you're -- you're safe in 15 terms of having the safeguards that you need. So 16 now that's -- 17 MS. BENYO: And at what point are 18 those assessments going to be made and who's 19 responsible to do them? Are you hiring someone to 20 do that? 21 (Multiple speakers at once - court reporter 22 instruction) 23 MS. BENYO: Claire Benyo, B-E-N-Y-O. 24 MR. ANDERSON: All right. Claire, I 25 am the site engineer, I design the project site. Page 39 1 I'm not the contractor. There is a contractor and 2 there will be a blasting contractor associated with 3 it that would take care of those type of things on 4 site when they're going to construction. When they 5 plan on blasting the site, if it requires blasting, 6 then they would do their pre-blast surveys, 7 coordinate with the town engineering department, as 8 we just agreed to, and it would be done at that 9 time. It's not done as part of their approval 10 process, it's part of the implementation of 11 construction. 12 MS. BENYO: I was under the impression 13 that there would be someone here this evening that 14 could expand on the specifications of that plan. 15 MR. ANDERSON: So the project 16 architect will have some exhibits which may clarify 17 how these buildings sit in the hillside so that you 18 can physically see that it is not teetering at the 19 top of the hill and would not likely fall down. 20 You'll -- you'll get a better feeling when you see 21 his exhibits of the stability that is involved. 22 MS. BENYO: I was under the impression 23 that that person was going to be here this evening. 24 Last night, it was confirmed that the questions that 25 we asked of this topic last night were

olved. 22 MS. BENYO: I was under the impression 23 that that person was going to be here this evening. 24 Last night, it was confirmed that the questions that 25 we asked of this topic last night were pushed to Page 40 1 this evening specifically because that person was 2 going to be here to -- 3 MS. McGOVERN: Yes. 4 MR. ANDERSON: Which person, the 5 architect? 6 MS. BENYO: The architect. 7 MR. ANDERSON: The architect, he's 8 right here. 9 MS. BENYO: We will have an 10 opportunity to hear him? 11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes. 12 MS. BENYO: Thank you. Never mind. 13 Then I have just a couple of other unrelated things. 14 I mean different things. 15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We're finishing up 16 Mr. Anderson's testimony and questions -- 17 MS. BENYO: Got it. 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: -- and then the 19 architect will testify. 20 MS. BENYO: Excellent. So I have just 21 a couple of more questions and then back to my 22 favorite topic, the environment. 23 So, Mr. Chairman, I have a question. 24 You mentioned two environmental specialists would be 25 engaged, so that's going to be one by the Township Page 41 1 of West Orange and one by the applicant; is that 2 correct? 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Well, we have an 4 environmental expert. I'm not sure if the applicant 5 will put everything, you can ask the applicant what 6 they propose presenting. 7 MS. BENYO: I thought you had 8 mentioned a few moments ago that there was going to 9 be two. 10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We have -- the Board 11 has hired an environmental expert -- 12 MS. BENYO: And -- 13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: -- who will be 14 evaluating the site. 15 MS. BENYO: -- will the applicant hire 16 an independent environmental specialist? 17 MR. PLOCKER: If and when we make that 18 decision and they issue a report, we'll obviously 19 put the report on file with the Board. 20 MS. BENYO: And what conditions would 21 be if and when that would be happening? 22 MR. PLOCKER: That's going to be up to 23 my client's decision and we don't have an answer for 24 that today. 25 MS. BENYO: And what are the

12 (Pages 42 to 45) Page 42 1 township's requirement for them to provide 2 environmental reports by a specialist? 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We're going to have 4 our expert provide a report and they can respond or 5 they can adopt, and Mr. Plocker wants to say 6 something. 7 MR. PLOCKER: You know, just, with all 8 due respect, I know that Mr. DeFeo issued an initial 9 letter in connection with the application, we all 10 look forward to seeing what he has to say now that 11 the application is underway. I don't know if she's 12 referring to an environmental impact statement, but 13 the township site plan application requirements, it 14 is not a checklist item, it is not addressed, it is 15 not required. 16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That's right, it's 17 not required by the applicant. 18 MS. BENYO: Okay. And so to the 19 Board: When will your hired environmental 20 specialist be available for public hearing? 21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, at some time 22 during the process. We have to -- we just hired him 23 last night. He has to go out and evaluate the site, 24 he's going to talk to us, so we want to do 25 everything expeditiously but we don't want to miss Page 43 1 anything. 2 MS. BENYO: Excellent. 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So we're going to 4 have a complete, well-done study. 5 MS. BENYO: And since you hired them 6 yesterday, what are their scopes of services, what 7 specific reports or assessments will they be 8 running? 9 MS. McGOVERN: The resolution that was 10 passed last night was to hire Mr. DeFeo, who was 11 instrumental in 2020 with reviewing the forest. 12 He's here tonight, he will be here until he 13 testifies, he may even be here after he testifies. 14 I don't know that any subsequent report is going to 15 be done because I think there was already something 16 submitted, but he's here and will testify when the 17 other witnesses that are completed before him are 18 done. 19 MS. BENYO: And what assessments will 20 he be conducting? 21 MS. McGOVERN: I think the health of 22 the forest, the effect of the deer fence, um -- I'm 23 trying to remember some of the things we went 24 through, a lot of the questions, the trees, the 25 health of the forest, trees, the number of trees, Page 44 1 how they calculated what trees are there, the 2 progress of the road, expected width, the measures 3 being taken, those kinds of things. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. He's here 5 during these

es, Page 44 1 how they calculated what trees are there, the 2 progress of the road, expected width, the measures 3 being taken, those kinds of things. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. He's here 5 during these meetings also to hear the questions of 6 the public. 7 MS. BENYO: Um-hum. 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So he will be able 9 to answer things that come from the questions of the 10 public, besides what we feel, if necessary, and he 11 is the expert who will provide more testimony. 12 MS. BENYO: Then I look forward to 13 that time. Thank you. 14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 15 MR. STOLOFF: Good evening. 16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Good evening. 17 MR. STOLOFF: Aaron Stoloff, I live in 18 Verona. 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Could you state your 20 name and spell your last name, sir? 21 MR. STOLOFF: I just stated my name. 22 Aaron Stoloff. 23 MS. McGOVERN: Spell it. 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Spell your last 25 name, sir. Page 45 1 (Member of the public spelled his name while 2 Chairman Bagoff was speaking - court reporter asks 3 him to repeat it.) 4 MR. STOLOFF: S as in Sam, T as in 5 Tom, O, L, O, F, F. 6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Go right ahead, sir. 7 MR. STOLOFF: Sure. So I live in 8 Verona on the other side, not on the most recent 9 side that was built in the mid to late '80s. That 10 was called the Garden Homes, though. I did confirm 11 with my friends. So I do know that, from living 12 there, that the whole area is bedrock. So -- 13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Sir, sir -- 14 MR. STOLOFF: When Mr. Anderson was -- 15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Sir, if, when, why, 16 what, where, how, which. Please ask a question. 17 MR. STOLOFF: I'm getting to a 18 question. 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You're testifying. 20 MR. STOLOFF: No, I'm getting to a 21 question, all right? 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Getting to a 23 question is testifying. The law considers it 24 testifying. 25 MR. STOLOFF: Okay.

13 (Pages 46 to 49) Page 46 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm going to ask you 2 to ask a question, please. 3 MR. STOLOFF: So the question is, Mr. 4 Anderson was talking about the water control, but 5 since it's bedrock, most of the water issues happen 6 underground and taking away the trees does affect 7 those underground water flows, so how -- I'm curious 8 how the plan addresses those underground water flows 9 that will definitely be altered by the removal of so 10 many trees. Question, there you go. 11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 12 MR. ANDERSON: So the analysis is 13 studies using the existing conditions using the 14 appropriate parameters to develop what the discharge 15 is. 16 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: Speak up. 17 MR. ANDERSON: Sorry. 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Anderson, you 19 want to hold it. 20 MR. ANDERSON: I will, I'm sorry. 21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 22 MR. ANDERSON: I backed up an inch. 23 So we did the redevelopment study that 24 indicates what the stormwater discharge is from the 25 site under the existing conditions, with the Page 47 1 requirements that the law requires in terms of it 2 being a forest in good standing and so forth. And 3 then we do borings or test pits throughout the site, 4 we identify areas where it's deeper soil area, 5 deeper to bedrock, and that there's no groundwater 6 present or there's groundwater at a deeper level. 7 And then we design systems that retain the water, 8 some of it recharges back into the ground and back 9 into the bedrock that is probably below, as you 10 indicated -- 11 MR. STOLOFF: Um-hum. 12 MR. ANDERSON: -- and then some of 13 that goes away in the way of groundwater recharge. 14 The rest of it is controlled with an outlet 15 structure that slowly releases the water out to its 16 ultimate discharge, which is either one of the 17 streams that are on site. 18 MR. STOLOFF: Okay. Some of my time, 19 you took away from me having to -- 20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Keep going. 21 MR. STOLOFF: Okay. There was 22 something brought up Mr. Anderson also said -- 23 seemed to reference that there was no data about the 24 bedrock and I want to point out the thing with the 25 garden homes, what I was going to say is that was Page 48 1 built in the mid to late '80s, so there should be 2 some data about the amount of -- 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Bedrock? 4 MR. STOLOFF: -- bedrock and what was 5 involved because my understanding, it was

48 1 built in the mid to late '80s, so there should be 2 some data about the amount of -- 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Bedrock? 4 MR. STOLOFF: -- bedrock and what was 5 involved because my understanding, it was excessive 6 and caused quite a bit of disruption because in the 7 process of building those homes. Okay? So I would 8 suggest looking at that. 9 My other question is -- it's more 10 actually for the Planning Board, if that's possible. 11 Okay. So I attended the Latino action network's 12 legislative conference in March. There, there was a 13 housing expert and I asked them specifically about 14 having affordable housing and where affordable 15 housing should and shouldn't be built, and my 16 understanding is from talking to this person and 17 reading up, is that this area is not a good location 18 for affordable housing. Generally, you want 19 affordable housing near -- 20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Let me stop you 21 right there. 22 MR. STOLOFF: -- near downtown -- 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Time out, time out. 24 MR. STOLOFF: -- public access and so 25 forth? Page 49 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You're testifying. 2 I'm going to stop you. So there is an agreement -- 3 MR. STOLOFF: So my question is, I 4 guess: Why would you be focusing on a project like 5 this with affordable housing when I'm sure there are 6 many vacant areas that are more -- that are closer 7 to the downtown that would be better suited for 8 affordable housing, that's my question. 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: It's a good 10 question. There's a settlement agreement and the 11 Court adopted it with a Special Master specifically 12 for affordable housing. That's it. Thank you. 13 MR. STOLOFF: Okay. 14 MR. FAGAN: Just hand him the mic. 15 MR. STOLOFF: Oh, sorry. 16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, sir, can you 17 state your name and spell your last name for the 18 record, please, sir. 19 MR. TENKATE: My name is Peter 20 T-E-N-K-A-T-E. 21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I couldn't hear 22 that, I'm sorry. 23 MR. TENKATE: My name is Peter 24 Tenkate, T-E-N-K-A-T-E. I am from Boswell 25 Engineering, I'm township engineer in Verona. The

14 (Pages 50 to 53) Page 50 1 Mayor and Council has asked us to review the 2 stormwater as it affects the residents in Verona. 3 You have a report, which I understand the Board does 4 not accept by mail, so I'm here to present the 5 report formally for the record. 6 (Applause by members of the public) 7 MS. McGOVERN: Could you pass that 8 out. The Board hasn't had a chance to read it. 9 MR. TENKATE: I understand. 10 MS. McGOVERN: Are you going to make 11 yourself available for questions with respect to the 12 report or would you like to pass it out and then 13 give a summary to the Board of the salient points 14 within it? 15 MR. TENKATE: Yes, it's very technical 16 in nature. I could come back to another meeting to 17 go over it after everybody's had the chance to 18 review it or I could -- 19 MS. McGOVERN: All right, so my 20 suggestion is if you give the exhibits to our Board 21 secretary, who will pass them out. If you will 22 identify it as the exhibit, we'll do -- we'll call 23 it -- you're the one who prepared this report, 24 you're familiar with it? 25 MR. TENKATE: I am not the one who Page 51 1 prepared it. 2 MS. McGOVERN: But you're familiar 3 with it? 4 MR. TENKATE: That person is not 5 available. 6 MS. McGOVERN: It's from your company 7 and you -- 8 MR. TENKATE: Yes. 9 MS. McGOVERN: -- you have the 10 expertise to discuss it, correct? 11 MR. TENKATE: I prefer that the person 12 who prepared it did it but I could discuss it. It's 13 very technical in nature and that is to do with the 14 regulations. 15 MS. McGOVERN: Do you have the 16 expertise to give us a summary of what's in that 17 report? 18 MR. TENKATE: Yes. 19 MS. McGOVERN: Okay. So Mr. Hess, I 20 did send that to you earlier -- 21 MR. HESS: Yes. 22 MS. McGOVERN: -- because I did have a 23 copy. It would be my suggestion that you give a 24 brief summary and the Board won't be in a position, 25 really, to ask any substantive questions nor do I Page 52 1 think that the applicant's -- 2 MR. PLOCKER: No. 3 MS. McGOVERN: -- attorney would be 4 prepared, so that we'll take it at this point and 5 ask for you to come back or the author of the report 6 to come back, but you've identified it as a reliable 7 instrument, I'm going to have to say that, that it 8 is something that -- it can have some bearing on the 9 Board's decision. 10 So if you could just give a brief 11 summary of what we are

reliable 7 instrument, I'm going to have to say that, that it 8 is something that -- it can have some bearing on the 9 Board's decision. 10 So if you could just give a brief 11 summary of what we are accepting right now and the 12 Board will take a look at it, but we'll delve into 13 testimony at a later date when someone from your 14 office can respond to it, okay? 15 MR. TENKATE: Okay. 16 MR. KLEIN: What are you labeling 17 this? 18 MS. McGOVERN: We're going to label it 19 as O-1 because he's -- it's an objector exhibit. 20 MR. PLOCKER: Is Mr. Anderson still 21 being questioned? I know it's kind of a little out 22 of order now. 23 MS. McGOVERN: Mr. Anderson, we 24 haven't finished him -- 25 MR. PLOCKER: Okay. Page 53 1 MS. McGOVERN: -- because I think 2 there might be someone behind -- 3 MR. PLOCKER: Okay, great. 4 MS. McGOVERN: -- but you took the 5 opportunity to get on the line and do this and I get 6 it, so... It's sort of in the same subject matter 7 because it's an engineer. 8 MR. TENKATE: I would prefer if we 9 could defer this to the next meeting to have the 10 author present -- 11 MS. McGOVERN: Do you have any 12 objection to that? 13 MR. PLOCKER: No objection. 14 MS. McGOVERN: All right, Mr. Hess, 15 then, our Board engineer will also be able to review 16 that. And if you could give a copy of your report. 17 Thank you. 18 MR. AFRAN: Thank you. 19 MS. McGOVERN: We'll ask you to come 20 back. So the Board members, you can take a look at 21 this and we'll -- once we get somebody back here to 22 ask questions about it, that's when we'll delve into 23 it in more detail. 24 MR. TENKATE: Okay. When is the next 25 meeting?

15 (Pages 54 to 57) Page 54 1 MS. McGOVERN: That's a good question. 2 Give me a second. 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We'll discuss it 4 with the applicant. If we don't finish tonight, 5 we'll publish that later in the meeting. 6 MR. TENKATE: Thank you. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: And it will be on 8 the website. 9 MR. TENKATE: Thank you. 10 MS. McGOVERN: And feel free, you 11 could contact, uh, contact the Board offices, they 12 can put you in touch with me or you -- I think -- if 13 you don't have my e-mail, you may, I'm at Gaccione 14 Pomaco, you should be able to find me, okay? 15 MR. TENKATE: Okay. 16 MS. McGOVERN: Thank you. 17 MR. HESS: Mr. Chairman, if I could 18 offer one comment. 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Hess. 20 MR. HESS: Thank you. I'd like to let 21 Mr. Tenkate know that the plans and the report that 22 you referenced in the letter are not the latest. My 23 suggestion would be that you contact the Board 24 secretary and get a copy of the latest plans, 25 because there have been changes and some of the Page 55 1 items you're indicating don't accurately reflect 2 what's proposed. 3 MR. AFRAN: Thank you. 4 MR. HESS: Okay. Thank you. 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, sir. 6 MS. McGOVERN: We will -- oh, did you 7 want to -- okay. 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Just for the public 9 information and those on Zoom, this has been 10 supplied to the Board, to the applicant and to our 11 professionals. Only when and if their expert or the 12 maker of this report testifies will it then be 13 available to the public. If the maker of this or a 14 representative doesn't testify, this will not be 15 available to the public and the Board will hold it 16 with no weight. Okay? In fairness to the 17 applicant. Thank you, sir. 18 MR. TENKATE: Thank you. 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Krakoviak. 20 MR. KRAKOVIAK: Thank you. Good 21 evening. 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Good evening. 23 MR. KRAKOVIAK: Joe Krakoviak, last 24 name, K-R-A-K-O-V-I-A-K. I have two three-part 25 questions for Mr. Anderson. The first one has to do Page 56 1 with his entire career, and I know it's been lengthy 2 so I just ask, as precisely as you can estimate, how 3 many times during your career have you been the 4 primary for evaluating a site for the potential for 5 landslides? 6 The second question is: Of all of 7 those, how many times did you recommend for the 8 security of the site and that there wouldn't be a 9 landslide? 10 And the third