October 30, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

5 of 80 sheets Page 17 to 20 of 203 11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM 17 and on this side where it gets a little steep, not to1 bad, but this one in particular, as this area fills in2 with that new growth there will essentially be sponges,3 for lack of a better term and that's not a technical4 term, into the ground.5 In addition, from a visibility standpoint,6 as that growth becomes denser seeing through this space7 will be harder and harder. So natural growth8 regeneration reduces visibility through the forest,9 which to some people is disturbing but to others makes10 sense and it will increase water absorption.11 So as we go through the site we do come up12 with about, based on a revised review of the site in13 2024, we're again Davey Tree came in and did a basic14 walk-through and certain revisions. We have about 583015 new trees potentially being removed if the density in16 the developed zone is actually 212 trees per acre. And17 we can't guarantee, it's probably lower in some spots18 and generally not higher. So this number is a maximum.19 The number actually decreases because the applicant20 actually has reduced the acreage of disturbance from21 what was allowed in the settlement agreement, so22 therefore there are fewer trees potentially, and that's23 a very important word, potentially, impacted. In this24 proposed site, should it be approved, you have 7725 18 percent, approximately, of tree cover preserved in1 perpetuity.2 The negotiation called for, in this case,3 and it's actually not on 33 acres but only for 30. The4 applicant increased by three acres total deer fencing.5 33 acres of deer fencing. The eight-foot height will6 prevent deer from entering that area.7 Now, another question that had been raised8 in one of the earlier hearings, what happens to the deer9 in the fenced in area. The deer will be herded out of10 the area before the fence is closed with a gate. Each11 deer fenced area will be gated. The applicant can use12 that land for trails or recreation if they so choose,13 that's up to them of course. But the deer will be14 driven out of that particular area. In both my visits15 to the area I counted approximately eight to ten deer16 maximum on the property. Not saying there aren't -- I17 am not, I am not saying that there aren't more deer on18 that property, but I will tell you their health will be19 limited by browse.20 The nearest deer fencing

roperty. Not saying there aren't -- I17 am not, I am not saying that there aren't more deer on18 that property, but I will tell you their health will be19 limited by browse.20 The nearest deer fencing project in New21 Jersey to this site would be South Mountain Reservation.22 South Mountain Reservation has certain areas that they23 want to protect in the park with deer fencing24 surrounding it.25 19 The second area here we used the tree loss1 here. Now, this is per the plan. We are looking at,2 this says, Trees Saved. Zero. Understand that that's3 assuming that every tree has to be removed and we don't4 know that today. But for worse case scenario my report5 projects the most number of trees. If trees can be6 protected, we will work with the applicant on that. On7 that same path, understand that when this project starts8 we will be out there with a representative from Davey9 Environmental, who I retained for this process, to make10 certain that we do not leave the area of allowed11 disturbance. So the areas that are protected will be12 observed and we will work closely to monitor and make13 sure that does not change.14 The applicant was given credit for the, all15 of the native species that have been planted and they16 were given credit for every tree preserved based on the17 deer fencing. Why? Well, as I would point out to you18 and most recently in the Association of New Jersey's19 Environmental Commission Report for the fall, if you20 look in here, there's a large article on tree death in21 the northeast and the Mid-Atlantic. There's an entire22 section of this report talks about using deer fencing as23 a way to preserve and protect forests to allow them to24 regenerate. The one caveat on deer fencing is the cost.25 20 That it's expensive to put acres and acres of deer1 fencing in. In this case the applicant, when we2 negotiated with the applicant, we gave credit for that3 deer fencing to encourage that expense, if you will,4 because it's a big expense. The best price I have, that5 I've seen on deer fencing is about $20 per linear foot.6 And 33 acres and how many linear feet that is. So the7 applicant was given credit for the deer fenced area to8 encourage more areas to be deer fenced to encourage9 greater forest growth.10 In addition the native trees, shrubs and11 perennials, grasses and ground covers, that the12 applicant has agreed, and by the way

ge more areas to be deer fenced to encourage9 greater forest growth.10 In addition the native trees, shrubs and11 perennials, grasses and ground covers, that the12 applicant has agreed, and by the way these all, in terms13 of specific species, are subject to further discussion.14 Just as a point, we've already had discussion on one15 native species and substituting it for another due to,16 unfortunately, to climate change. We don't want to put17 in a tree and it just can't survive.18 This is now your seed nurser. These shrubs19 will create seed. Those seeds will be spread by wind,20 they will be spread by birds, they will be spread by21 animals. Well, if they land outside the deer fencing22 they might live, but if they land inside the deer23 fencing they have an infinitely better chance of growth.24 So we will try to encourage a greater amount of native25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 21 to 24 of 203 6 of 80 sheets 21 growth into the forest. As I said to you, one of the1 sad parts of this forest is it's filled with invasive2 species, mostly from the backyards of neighboring3 properties, because they're planted there. It's4 nobody's fault, we allowed them to be planted in New5 Jersey, it is what it is. This growth will encourage6 two things. One, it encourages, as I said, the growth7 of new plants and absorption of water.8 And two, the new plant's over time in9 studies that have been done throughout the country can10 start to crowd out invasive plants. One of the beauties11 of native plants is given time and given the right12 conditions they can compete against invasives. It's13 good news going forward. That means we will preserve14 more land, we will preserve a number of trees, most15 importantly we will be reseeding by nature and allowing16 the trees that are still left in that forest after the17 beech and ash die out, which we know will happen, for18 new trees to come in. Which will be predominately old19 maple, but will be others as well.20 We will have native shrubs and native21 flowers able to grow in that area which are having a22 hard time today.23 The applicants design reduces the footprint,24 this was also part of the negotiation. How much more25 22 can you put under a building applicant, to save more1 forest. The applicant agreed to 100 percent native2 plants. We might choose to substitute indigenous, but3 nonnative. To give an example on that would be, if you4 want a particular type of evergreen that's been5 hybridized on the west coast of the species and you want6 that on this site, they wouldn't get credit for it per7 se, but it's not invasive. And the most important thing8 in landscape design today is to avoid invasive plants.9 If you've ever been to the High Line in New York, as an10 example, there are plants from elsewhere of the United11 States or from Europe but they're not invasive. So that12 can be done in a way that maximizes beauty, but doesn't13 hurt the environment.14 It can and includes passive recreation. 7715 percent of the property will be preserved. The passive16 recreation -- there are already trails in that property.17 They weren't cut by anybody, they were done by use of18 people over the years. And we also, of course in the19 settlement, as you have seen in the

ation -- there are already trails in that property.17 They weren't cut by anybody, they were done by use of18 people over the years. And we also, of course in the19 settlement, as you have seen in the applicants20 presentation, they include permeable parking areas to21 reduce runoff.22 So Chairman, that is the end of my23 presentation.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.25 23 Start off with the board, any members of the1 board have any questions for Mr. Defeo. We're going to2 start off with Mayor McCartney.3 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Mr. DeFeo, the slides are4 not numbered.5 THE WITNESS: I apologize.6 MAYOR McCARTNEY: But in one of the slides7 that you showed show the deer fencing on steep slope on8 the left-hand side. If you can go back to that.9 THE WITNESS: I'm trying. You're talking10 about the map, correct?11 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Correct.12 THE WITNESS: Okay.13 MAYOR McCARTNEY: That was it.14 THE WITNESS: That one or the next one?15 MAYOR McCARTNEY: There's another one.16 MS. MCGOVERN: Was it SP-11?17 THE WITNESS: I'm trying to get there, it's18 not listening to me. There you go. Sorry.19 Yes, ma'am.20 MAYOR McCARTNEY: So the question is, the 2521 acre steep slope on the right, but on the left where it22 shows the deer fencing there, will that be moved? I23 mean, it's just in that one space but it seems to me24 that that could even come in?25 24 THE WITNESS: You're talking about here?1 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Further. Yes.2 THE WITNESS: Yeah. The problem with coming3 in further I'm in wetlands and the stream corridor and4 it's going to be difficult to get permission to come5 into that area. You don't want it going into the6 wetland area. Just like even to go in here if I wanted7 to remove or wanted the applicant to remove the invasive8 barberry they would have to get a permit from the DEP to9 go in there to remove the invasive plantings. So we10 kept the deer fencing to avoid impacting the wetlands at11 all and that's why we didn't come in further.12 MAYOR McCARTNEY: And with the DEP there are13 setbacks also the DEP requires to stay as far away as14 you could?15 THE WITNESS: They want us to stay away from16 the wetlands. They would always want a developer to do17 that. Now, technically because those posts are not set18 in concrete, the way -- the wetland rules are kind of19 weird, they'll just be wooden posts in the ground. In20 theory they could be where they are, which is

hnically because those posts are not set18 in concrete, the way -- the wetland rules are kind of19 weird, they'll just be wooden posts in the ground. In20 theory they could be where they are, which is very close21 to the wetland, but the Department still has very big22 problems with you digging holes in wetlands. So really23 this is about as far out as it could go.24 MAYOR McCARTNEY: And on the other side you25

7 of 80 sheets Page 25 to 28 of 203 11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM 25 talked about the net required replacement 1400, but that1 really would depend on, here we go. Net required2 replacement 1493 trees over the requirement. So the3 requirement is --4 THE WITNESS: Well, the requirements based5 on the way your township does a replacement planted tree6 ordinance. So this is giving the allowance to encourage7 more deer fencing.8 MR. AFRAN: Could the Mayor just speak up a9 little bit, it's very hard to hear.10 MAYOR McCARTNEY: I was discussing that last11 slide, the net required replacement over the12 requirement. You're saying that it's still an estimate13 of 212 trees per acre, so what would be the requirement?14 Will it be the actual count or the trees that come down?15 THE WITNESS: It would be based on your16 ordinance and quite honestly the negotiations that we17 were working with, I don't have that in my head.18 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Can we find out?19 THE WITNESS: We can -- I'm sorry. We can20 find out if we go back and look. I just don't have it21 with me here today.22 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Thank you.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Klein.24 MR. KLEIN: Can you go back to SP-11.25 26 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.1 MR. KLEIN: So by putting the deer fence in2 sort of blocking their path, how will that change the3 migration, the traveling patterns of the deer?4 THE WITNESS: You know, that's a good5 question. Deer fencing does tend to impact migration.6 The important thing here is the deer are moving, no7 matter how you look at this, if there's no fencing there8 the deer are moving freely like this. It's a total9 random movement. There are deer paths that you will see10 in here where deer have traditionally walked, say this11 line. That's very common in a woodland. You'll see12 where they walked through. It's hard to in this forest13 because we don't really enough undergrowth for them to14 collapse when they walk-through but they will walk15 everywhere. It's a little hard to judge them, but you16 can see it, you just have to look carefully. The deer17 will have to do this or they'll go this way. Those are18 that in here, there may be some that stay. The rest19 will move around as they do today because the forage20 isn't very good in here. There is forage but it's not21 great. So they're moving around today, they will just22 take a longer path.23 MR. KLEIN: Will it affect -- how will it24 affect

use the forage20 isn't very good in here. There is forage but it's not21 great. So they're moving around today, they will just22 take a longer path.23 MR. KLEIN: Will it affect -- how will it24 affect the neighbors? In other words, the neighbors to25 27 the east, looks like the deer will be blocked. The1 neighbors to the north, it looks like it might funnel2 towards them?3 THE WITNESS: Not towards them so much but4 they will come around this way. This is still vacant5 land right now. There are no houses right here as of6 yet. The -- will the deer move to other yards,7 probably. That's what they're doing today. If there's8 no forest they're moving around. Will it impact those9 yards, well, there are three things that define what10 deer impact will be. What have the neighbors planted in11 their yard. If they planted hosta and the deer walks12 through there today, they're probably going to eat it13 anyway. If you plant something in your yard that a deer14 likes, the fence is irrelevant. They're finding a way15 to get there. If you plant things that are, and I want16 to use the word, deer resistant, because there is no17 such thing as deer proof, except apparently for18 barberry, because deer when they're hungry, like19 anything, will eat. So the answer to your question is,20 will deer move, yes. Will they go to anywhere else to21 eat, yes. But of the 77 percent of this land, let's22 see, there's 33 acres deer fencing. 20 -- let's say 30,23 just for math sake, that's 66 acres. There's still 6024 acres of open space here the deer can walk around. It's25 28 not like the whole site is being closed off.1 MR. KLEIN: You also said that the fenced in2 deer areas, the undisturbed area they can be used as3 trails?4 THE WITNESS: Well, this area has a number5 of what I would call, it's not my judgment to say, but I6 would call them, since I haven't walked it that often,7 probably for lack of better term, they're illegal8 trails, people using the property, but those trails9 could be historic in going back 50 years for all I know.10 They are human trails that have been cut through here by11 use. I've seen occasional deer paths through here, but12 that was because I went off trail and looked for where13 the deer were going. So I was essentially tracking.14 MR. KLEIN: But I mean, it's going to be15 fence there, there would some gates?16 THE WITNESS: For people.17 MR. KLEIN: To

l and looked for where13 the deer were going. So I was essentially tracking.14 MR. KLEIN: But I mean, it's going to be15 fence there, there would some gates?16 THE WITNESS: For people.17 MR. KLEIN: To be able to open the gate?18 THE WITNESS: Yes, the residents -- there19 will two sets of gates in here, at least, and it's up to20 the applicant, all though the applicant has said to me21 they expressed an interest not so much on this side22 here, the east side, because of the steepness, but over23 here to potentially make this a walking recreation area24 for people in the complex so they could walk-through the25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 29 to 32 of 203 8 of 80 sheets 29 woods.1 MR. KLEIN: But then the deer would able to2 get in there?3 THE WITNESS: The gate would have to be4 locked behind you. This is not uncommon. Normally when5 you want to use a deer fenced area we use what's called6 a double gate. You've been to a dog park. The same7 concept as a dog park. You lock the outer gate, then8 open the inner gate. Could people make mistakes, I9 can't -- I can't attest for human behavior, but it would10 be a management company issue or they could of course11 say, I'm going to lock it up and that's it. We just go12 in for maintenance. As part of the settlement agreement13 you should be aware this fencing must be maintained in14 perpetuity by the applicant. This is not municipal15 land. This is all going to be private property.16 MR. KLEIN: That's it for me.17 Thank you.18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Counsel President19 Rutherford.20 COUNCIL PRESIDENT RUTHERFORD: Thank you,21 Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. DeFeo. I have a few22 questions.23 So in the report you mentioned something24 about the number of deer in the forest or something that25 30 you observed. Can you just refresh my recollection of1 what that number was?2 THE WITNESS: I said in the few times -- in3 the time I've been in that forest I have personally4 counted, although I did not do a deer population survey,5 but I did see more than ten deer during my observation,6 which does not mean there aren't more, it just means7 that when I was there that's what I saw.8 COUNCIL PRESIDENT RUTHERFORD: So --9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ladies and Gentleman, we10 are trying to listen, please. Thank you very much.11 COUNCIL PRESIDENT RUTHERFORD: So that, you12 determined the number in the forest by just walking in13 the forest and observing the number that you saw?14 THE WITNESS: No, I did not make a15 determination. I stated that was my observation during16 my visits to that forest. That's different than making17 an actual statical survey. I did not do a deer18 population survey.19 COUNCIL PRESIDENT RUTHERFORD: So we don't20 know how many deer are here?21 THE WITNESS: No.22 COUNCIL PRESIDENT RUTHERFORD: Okay.23 The deer fencing, you mentioned that it is,24 this is designed to encourage more area to be fenced in25 31 or you made some testimony about that. Can you refresh1 my recollection on that?2 THE WITNESS: Yes. The statement was