October 30, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

43 of 80 sheets Page 169 to 172 of 203 11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM 169 actual legal duty to evaluate what is being said.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: And the board is.2 MR. AFRAN: No, I'm not saying you're not.3 But it's not limited to what ultimately the applicant4 might want to do. The board has an independent duty to5 look at this evidence. It's got nothing to do with what6 the applicant could or could not do. This evidence must7 be heard by the board and all responsive questions are8 valuable. It's got nothing to do with what the9 applicant might want. I'm just pointing this out, that10 it's not as limited with respect as you're saying.11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Agreed. The applicant --12 the public has been asking the questions.13 MR. AFRAN: All I'm trying to do is, I think14 it's relevant and I didn't mean to go on this length.15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: No, I counted five times16 that we heard the same information over the time the17 public's here and there's no problem with that. So what18 you're saying is the board should hear it, and we have19 five times.20 MR. AFRAN: No, no objection to the patience21 and commitment of the board. I just wanted to point out22 the relevance issue and I didn't mean that we needed to23 go on at length. My apologies.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: It's always a pleasure,25 170 Mr. Afran.1 MR. AFRAN: Thank you.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Continue, sir.3 THE PUBLIC: I want to thank Mr. Afran for4 his support. I'll be taking your law class next5 semester, no kidding.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Botany and law.7 THE PUBLIC: And learning how to be a8 planning board Chair one day. Thank you, Mr. Chairman9 Bagoff.10 Can we go to the map where the deer fencing11 is and the contours again.12 So I get the idea of a sponge because that's13 going to soak up the water and keep it from flooding,14 but that little tiny corner up there where it says,15 Limit Line, and you have a little arrow there, right?16 THE WITNESS: Yes.17 THE PUBLIC: That's water all coming18 downhill, according to your contours there, which hits19 those one, two, three homes. No, going exactly where20 that limit line is. No, where those words are. Go up21 to the corner. Right there. That water all comes down22 there during a storm. There's no sponge effect and23 we're saying that the growth is not good there and24 there's not going to be -- it's going to be undisturbed.25 171 But there is going to be construction, there is

torm. There's no sponge effect and23 we're saying that the growth is not good there and24 there's not going to be -- it's going to be undisturbed.25 171 But there is going to be construction, there is going to1 be --2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, this is off the3 property map.4 THE PUBLIC: No, it's still on the property5 map. Right there. That's it. On the line.6 THE WITNESS: Here?7 THE PUBLIC: Right. In that little corner8 right there. That's the slope that --9 THE WITNESS: Here?10 THE PUBLIC: Right.11 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry.12 THE PUBLIC: So to help prevent water,13 excessive runoff, could that be included or not included14 to encourage growth there to prevent any flooding15 through the homes that are off the map?16 THE WITNESS: So you're asking can this deer17 fencing be put like this?18 THE PUBLIC: Correct. Right.19 THE WITNESS: I can't answer that. I mean,20 I can answer that but it's not my application.21 THE PUBLIC: Right. You made the22 recommendation where this deer fencing could be,23 correct?24 THE WITNESS: Generally. I did not get into25 172 specific design with them. I left that to the planner1 and to the architect. I can't answer that, it's up to2 the --3 THE PUBLIC: The negotiated area was between4 you and --5 THE WITNESS: The general area. Again, not6 specifically. So I can't answer your question, I guess7 is my answer.8 THE PUBLIC: That's a high, high concern of9 the location of the deer fencing. I know that those are10 the two lease areas, but there is concern if the, if the11 areas are to be sponges and safeguards to protect the12 properties that are off the map, correct? That's why13 they're there.14 THE WITNESS: Well, that's part of it. I15 mean, that's one of the consequences I should say, yes.16 THE PUBLIC: Right. So couldn't there be17 other areas selected for deer fencing to help protect18 water runoff?19 THE WITNESS: Again, I can't answer your20 question for this area, because it's not my specific21 design. I can -- it's up to the planning board if they22 want to ask for more deer fencing.23 THE PUBLIC: Let me rephrase. Are there24 other areas that you might suggest on the map?25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 173 to 176 of 203 44 of 80 sheets 173 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We're going to ask the1 applicant to look at that area and point that out again2 and see if there has to be an edge that's maintainable3 beyond the area that is deer fenced, but we'll ask the4 applicant to listen to your issues and see if they can5 come up with a solution.6 THE WITNESS: Have you got that, Bryan?7 Want me to point that out to you so you can see what8 we're talking about. It's this area right in here. So9 he's asking, can this be triangulated that point.10 MS. MCGOVERN: You would be just moving the11 line a little bit?12 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Putting another bit of13 deer fencing. You would expand it. You would just14 expand this and change its design.15 MS. MCGOVERN: I guess they have to look and16 see if it's the same amount.17 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it could be18 done. I don't have an answer for that.19 MR. PLOCKER: We'll take a look at it,20 absolutely.21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. The applicant will22 take a look at it and come back to the board.23 THE PUBLIC: I just want to clarify that24 the, ask the question, the tree experts that walked25 174 around with you, they had some kind of credentials from1 an association and such as --2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That's been testified to,3 sir. Move on.4 THE PUBLIC: Okay. I'll move on. Thank5 you.6 I guess my last question is the removal of7 trees, were they included in the entrances that also8 include storm water work, you know, sewer work, drinking9 water work, gas, electricity and things like that, was10 that taken into consideration?11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry, I don't12 understand the question.13 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't understand the14 question.15 THE PUBLIC: So we're looking at the16 buildings and stuff but also sewer lines and --17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: It's not going in the18 disturbed area.19 THE PUBLIC: Right. So the disturbed areas,20 right, but you have to go from wherever the --21 electricity has to come in from other areas outside22 those white areas to run those lines.23 MR. KLEIN: Under the roads.24 THE PUBLIC: Under the roads?25 175 MR. KLEIN: Yeah.1 THE PUBLIC: Okay. So they're not going to2 come up from the side or somewhere else, it's going to3 be specifically to the tee on those roads?4 MR. KLEIN: Like your street. The utilities5 would be under the street.6 THE PUBLIC: Right.7 MR. AFRAN: Note for the

e side or somewhere else, it's going to3 be specifically to the tee on those roads?4 MR. KLEIN: Like your street. The utilities5 would be under the street.6 THE PUBLIC: Right.7 MR. AFRAN: Note for the record, with great8 respect, that answers provided by a member of the board,9 which is fine. It's not provided by the applicants10 professional.11 MR. KLEIN: Lee Klein, professional engineer12 in New Jersey. Licenses are in good standing.13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We're going to wait for14 the engineer to come up with a plan and the applicant15 will elucidate, my guess is wherever PSE&G and the sewer16 system starts out with, that's up to the engineer and17 that's going to solve the problem.18 MR. AFRAN: Chairman, I'm just pointing out19 for the record, sometimes you hear in the record a voice20 says. I just want it to be clear for the record --21 MS. MCGOVERN: We do have a transcript.22 MR. AFRAN: I know that. Some times in a23 transcript it's not always clear who's giving the24 answer. I have no problem with the viewpoint expressed,25 176 I just want to point out that's not a factual statement1 from the applicant.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Absolutely.3 MR. AFRAN: That's all I wanted to point out4 for the record.5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm the chair, let me do6 that. Thank you. One moment.7 Mayor McCartney.8 MAYOR McCARTNEY: A question was asked about9 Exhibit C of our ordinance, those questions are answered10 in Exhibit C of our ordinance. Those questions are11 answered in Exhibit C of our ordinance.12 MR. PLOCKER: Madam Mayor, I believe it's13 the settlement agreement as an exhibit.14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Oh, there goes that word.15 MR. PLOCKER: I want a clear record.16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We had half an hour no17 words.18 MR. PLOCKER: And some of Exhibit C, just to19 be clear, some of Exhibit C is incorporated directly20 into the ordinance, some stands on its own, which the21 applicant must adhere to.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. The applicant will23 be back and explain everything to us.24 Okay. Yes, sir.25

45 of 80 sheets Page 177 to 180 of 203 11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM 177 THE PUBLIC: I'm good. Thank you.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.2 Come on up.3 THE PUBLIC: Rachel Klein again. Howell4 Drive. I remember my question.5 In the settlement ordinance, in that6 document it mentions, it's Page 14, Paragraph 257 specifically talks about the deed restriction and8 there's a line in it, maybe I -- maybe I misunderstood9 it, it talks about to the benefit of the town. And so10 my question is, how, if this areas going to be deed11 restricted to the benefit of the town, how is fencing12 off from use benefit the town, unless there's another13 definition to that?14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker.15 MR. PLOCKER: The intent of the deed16 restriction is to alleviate anybody's concern that there17 could be future development on anything other than the18 maximum of the 30 acres that was contemplated by the19 settlement of the ordinance.20 THE PUBLIC: Yeah, it mentions that too.21 It's just the line about being, because there's a part22 about the benefit of the residents, trying to open the23 trails specifically in the western part and then it just24 mentioned that, you know, questioning why it would be in25 178 there if it's clearly not to the benefit of the town.1 And then my other question is, when you come2 back with the reports next time we meet, some of the3 pictures you took with the chair, that's like not4 officially an easement, but that's always been like a5 naked wide area going straight from Howell Drive6 straight to, like a fork in the road that leads off the7 Highlands. So it always looks pretty empty of trees, so8 if you have pictures of other areas, specifically the9 eastern part of the ridge line and other areas of the10 forest, that might help people understand what you mean11 by undergrowth.12 THE WITNESS: In answer to your question,13 that's just a representative photo, it wasn't meant to14 be a photo survey, but I can tell you that that is, in15 my opinion, what the whole forest looks like. Now, I16 did not do a photo survey of the entire property but17 that is what it looks like. But, yes, would more photos18 show the same thing, they would and in our walk-through19 finding on my secondary report of 2024 we state 80 to20 100 yards is the visibility throughout that forest. So21 it wouldn't change where I was in the forest22 necessarily. There might be small pockets

inding on my secondary report of 2024 we state 80 to20 100 yards is the visibility throughout that forest. So21 it wouldn't change where I was in the forest22 necessarily. There might be small pockets where the23 wetlands are -- sorry. Where the wetlands are, where24 there are a lot of barberry growing, I can't see through25 179 the barberry. But that doesn't indicate a healthy1 forest.2 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.4 Come up and state your name for the record,5 please.6 THE PUBLIC: Hi. How are you. Justin7 Goldsmith. I just want to say I'm not opining on this8 project in any way I just have questions for my9 edification.10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Go right ahead, sir.11 THE PUBLIC: So I keep hearing the word12 offset and I keep hearing the word about storm water and13 flooding, and I guess my first question is, how do we14 compare impacted zones to nonimpacted zones? Based on15 this project what would you define as something that's16 impacted versus not impacted by this project?17 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure I understand the18 question.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Can you define the word?20 THE WITNESS: Yeah, what do you mean21 impacted?22 THE PUBLIC: Impacted?23 THE WITNESS: I know what impacted means but24 how does it relate to what I testified. I just don't25 180 understand.1 THE PUBLIC: I don't understand your2 question back to me. Okay. So --3 THE WITNESS: Describe -- can you give me4 more of a description.5 THE PUBLIC: Is there -- how do you define6 what zone areas have an environmental impact based on7 the construction of the development of this project?8 MS. MCGOVERN: Are you saying the word9 impact instead of the word disturbed and undisturbed10 area?11 THE PUBLIC: Sure. Oh, is there an12 environmentally disturbed area versus undisturbed area?13 THE WITNESS: Okay. Now I understand your14 question. Thank you. The area that is not shaded in15 either the ugly green as it's been called correctly or16 the dark green --17 THE PUBLIC: No, I asked how do you define,18 not what you define.19 MS. MCGOVERN: How do you define --20 THE WITNESS: Oh, disturbed would mean that21 this areas going to have tree removal, it's going to22 have construction activity, buildings, roads, utilities,23 et cetera.24 THE PUBLIC: Okay. How would you --25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 181 to 184 of 203 46 of 80 sheets 181 THE WITNESS: Storm collection system.1 Sorry.2 THE PUBLIC: How would render the situation3 based on your word disturbed or undisturbed area in4 terms of what is perceived as mitigating those5 situations? What would you do in a disturbed versus an6 undisturbed area of this project.7 MS. MCGOVERN: For planting?8 THE PUBLIC: For planting, for storm water9 runoff, anything like that.10 MS. MCGOVERN: Okay. He's only here for11 environmental, he's only here to testify about the12 environmental impact in the green areas.13 THE PUBLIC: Okay. So in those areas14 there's obviously going to be disturbed areas, correct?15 Right.16 THE WITNESS: Only in this area. Only in17 the white area.18 THE PUBLIC: Okay. We all have storm water19 runoff in all the other facets of that, correct? Yes.20 THE WITNESS: That's all part of the21 disturbed, yeah. That's been testified to by exerts on22 that area.23 THE PUBLIC: Understood. Understood24 entirely.25 182 THE WITNESS: Right.1 THE PUBLIC: Given that those areas will2 obviously see flood insurance increases, most likely3 disturbance in the cost of life, their daily activity,4 how are we doing this injustice that compensates those5 people for said insurance increases, flood insurance6 increases? I mean, I guarantee to you our flood7 insurance is going to sky rocket. How are we --8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Sir, this is beyond his9 testimony. He's not an insurance agent and we can't10 determine that.11 THE PUBLIC: Can I pose the question to the12 zoning board.13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We're not the zoning14 board, we're the planning board.15 THE PUBLIC: The planning board.16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: In any case, this is17 beyond the scope of what we look at for an application.18 It's a good question, not our purview, sir.19 THE PUBLIC: Okay. So I would just like to20 pose the question to the members here.21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: No, no, no, no. It has22 nothing to do with planning. This is the planning23 board, so I want to keep this focused on the application24 information and what we're supposed to hear, please.25 183 THE PUBLIC: Understood.1 So subsequent questions as a member of the2 environmental commission, also the board, I would like3 to ask the continuity study and the ingenuity nature of4 the plants we are replacing and the trees we are5 replacing as to how they relate to impacted zones

l commission, also the board, I would like3 to ask the continuity study and the ingenuity nature of4 the plants we are replacing and the trees we are5 replacing as to how they relate to impacted zones as6 they relate to storm water retention. An oak tree7 versus a redwood returns water at different rates and8 recharges them based on the current tree canopy9 ordinance at different levels. So I would like to know10 how you're incorporating those things into this11 development plan. If I chopped down a 500 year old oak12 tree that takes up a gallon of water a day versus a13 sapling that takes up an ounce of water a day, how do we14 go about doing that? That's not, I think that's a15 legitimate question, sir.16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Legitimate question.17 Is that anywhere in your reports?18 THE WITNESS: No.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Is it something you can20 bring to the board easily?21 THE WITNESS: I think the storm water plan22 or the planner is where that gets addressed.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm going to ask our24 engineer and our planner, is that something in your25 184 purview?1 MR HESS: No.2 THE PUBLIC: May I ask whose purvey it may3 be in?4 MS. MCGOVERN: It's two different subjects.5 If I'm mistaken, Mr. Plocker, you have the area that6 they're building where there was an engineer who7 testified about the storm water management?8 MR. PLOCKER: Yes, ma'am.9 MS. MCGOVERN: So there's that one aspect.10 And then you have the area with the forest, but we don't11 have calculations, if that's what you're asking for.12 Mr. DeFeo --13 THE PUBLIC: I'm asking --14 MS. MCGOVERN: -- he's not offering that15 type of testimony.16 THE PUBLIC: I'm not asking and if it's not,17 Mr. DeFeo, for you, I'm asking who it is to. If we're18 cutting down 50 redwood trees and replacing them with 5019 saplings of oak, is that the same storm water retention?20 MS. MCGOVERN: They're not cutting down any21 trees in those unrestricted areas.22 THE PUBLIC: Shrubs, vines.23 MS. MCGOVERN: They're not disturbing24 anything in those areas.25

47 of 80 sheets Page 185 to 188 of 203 11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM 185 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. The disturbed area1 is, the engineer provided the storm water management2 plan that is on record.3 THE PUBLIC: Understood.4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That will be approved,5 eventually approved by DEP. So that is out of our6 purview, much higher authority that will make sure that7 it is consistent with the law.8 THE PUBLIC: I appreciate the consistency, I9 do. Thank you very much.10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You're very welcome.11 Thank you.12 THE PUBLIC: Hi everyone. Good evening. My13 name is Clair Benyo, 57 Mayfair Drive. B-E-N-Y-O.14 So Mr. DeFeo, so just for my understanding,15 you're firm was hired as an independent consultant on16 this project, correct?17 THE WITNESS: Yes.18 THE PUBLIC: Are you the owner of that19 company?20 THE WITNESS: Yes.21 THE PUBLIC: What other clients do you have?22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Not germane, sorry.23 THE PUBLIC: What other industries do you24 support?25 186 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Can you answer that?1 THE WITNESS: Other industries. I mean, I2 work in the solid waste recycling. I work on3 environmental design. I work on green building. I've4 done energy conservation. I've done work on landscaping5 design projects with landscape architects to try to6 maximize regrowth. I've done work on solar fields.7 Worked with engineers. I teach at Rutgers. I mean --8 THE PUBLIC: I meant specifically your firm9 being hired for environmental consultative services.10 THE WITNESS: All those areas I've been11 hired.12 THE PUBLIC: Other townships you're hired13 by?14 THE WITNESS: All those areas are within15 that. I've done work, environmental work. I've done16 different areas. Nutley, Middletown.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Other towns are not18 germane. We're talking about West Orange.19 THE PUBLIC: And what other jobs has the20 Township of West Orange hired you for?21 THE WITNESS: I've done work for West Orange22 on different things since 2005. I'm the environmental23 compliance officer for the township for the recycling24 facility on Route 10, they call it Route 10. That's25 187 correct. I make sure that is in compliance with1 environmental conditions. I get consulted from, by the2 township from time to time on environmental matters,3 most recently on a couple of storm water matters where4 there have been issues of forest destruction. Improper5 forest destruction. I've done work with

hip from time to time on environmental matters,3 most recently on a couple of storm water matters where4 there have been issues of forest destruction. Improper5 forest destruction. I've done work with the township6 consultation for bid specifications for your solid waste7 collection. I don't know if there's anything else8 specifically I've been retained for.9 THE PUBLIC: Okay.10 And when were your services retained for11 this project specifically?12 THE PUBLIC: There are two levels of that.13 The initial work was in negotiating, not the ordinance,14 negotiating for the settlement, and then that was by the15 township and I don't have the date of my retention by16 the planning board, which is separate. I just don't17 know the exact date.18 THE PUBLIC: Can you expand on your19 involvement in negotiations that you were hired for?20 MS. MCGOVERN: I'm sorry, I missed that.21 THE PUBLIC: Can he expand on the services22 that he was hired for in 2019.23 MS. MCGOVERN: I think he already testified24 to that, but in terms of the settlement negotiation may25 188 have been some --1 THE PUBLIC: He mentioned several times he2 was hired to negotiate.3 MR. AFRAN: Can we just hear what Ms.4 McGovern said.5 MS. MCGOVERN: In terms of the settlement6 agreement and negotiations, I don't know the role, but7 in terms of the services to the township, you can8 describe it, anything that's not attorney-client9 privilege. Go ahead.10 THE WITNESS: I think the best answer is to11 help develop Schedule C, I believe it's called. You12 know, my job was to develop the environmental parameters13 for Schedule C and try to get them included.14 THE PUBLIC: Can you help me understand what15 Schedule C is related to this project?16 THE WITNESS: This is part of it, the tree17 fencing and the tree issues, which is the predominant18 element.19 MS. MCGOVERN: Schedule C is called Design,20 Terms and Conditions.21 THE PUBLIC: Okay.22 And so what were the scope and services that23 you were hired for, for this project? The second part24 of this project. The most recent hiring I should say.25