November 13, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

TOWNSHIP OF WEST ORANGE PLANNING BOARD MEETING ESSEX COUNTY, NEW JERSEY IN THE MATTER OF: ) TRANSCRIPT ) PB-24-01 ) OF WEST ESSEX HIGHLANDS, INC. ) ) PLANNING BOARD MEETING ) Place: Council Chambers 66 Main Street West Orange, NJ 07052 Date: November 13, 2024 BOARD MEMBERS PRESENT: DR. ROBERT BAGOFF, Chairman JERRY GUARINO, Vice Chairman SUSAN McCARTNEY, Mayor KEN ALPER JOHN CARDOZA LORI KAPFERER LEE D. KLEIN WILLIAM B. WILKES, II BILL RUTHERFORD BOARD PROFESSIONALS: DIANA P. McGOVERN, ESQ., Board Attorney JOHN J. HESS, PE, PP, Consulting Engineering JAMILET BAQUERIZO VITE, Board Secretary FISHMAN COURT REPORTING 89 Headquarters Plaza Morristown, NJ 07960 (732)605-9390 E-mail: pfishman1@aol.com Audio Recorded 2 APPEARANCES: BRYAN PLOCKER, ESQ. (Hutt Shimanowitz & Plocker, P.C.) Attorney for the Applicant BRUCE AFRAN, ESQ. (Law Office of Bruce Afran) Attorney for WeCare NJ 3 A D D E N D U M Individuals identified within the text of the following transcript do not represent necessarily all of the individuals in attendance at this meeting. Their presence, speaker identification and other information regarding title page and appearance, along with various words, proper nouns and other spellings found within this transcript were able to have been extrapolated from minutes of the meeting and discussions with the Board Secretary and, of course, that which is evident and that which can be concluded by way of the tape recording itself, which is of fair quality. Areas of the tape which were unable to be discerned were identified by placing the word (indiscernible) or (inaudible). * * * * * 4 I N D E X PAGE PUBLIC COMMENT Barbara White 10 Werner Heck 16 Peter Guarino 18 Seth Weisleder 20 Randy Cooper 26 Mr. Coviat (phonetic) 29 Mike McGlynn 40 WITNESS WAYNE DeFEO Examination by Mr. Bruce Afran 41

5 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: The next regular Planning 2 Board meeting will be held on December 4, 2024, 7:30 3 p.m. via Zoom. 4 Roll call please, Jamilet. 5 MS. VITE: Mr. Alper? 6 MR. ALPER: Here. 7 MS. VITE: Mr. Cardoza? 8 MR. CARDOZA: Present. 9 MS. VITE: Ms. Kapferer? 10 MS. KAPFERER: Here. 11 MS. VITE: Mr. Klein? 12 MR. KLEIN: Here. 13 MS. VITE: Mr. Wilkes? 14 MR. WILKES: Here. 15 MS. VITE: Council President Rutherford? 16 MR. RUTHERFORD: Here. 17 MS. VITE: Mayor McCartney? 18 MS. McCARTNEY: Present. 19 MS. VITE: Mr. Guarino? 20 MR. GUARINO: Present. 21 MS. VITE: Chairman Bagoff? 22 THE CHAIRPERSON: Here. Thank you. 23 At this time, ladies and gentlemen, I make a 24 motion that the Planning Board move to executive 25 session. 6 1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Second, Mr. Chairman. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: All in favor say aye. 3 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Opposed, say nay. 5 The ayes have it. We’re going to go into 6 executive session. 7 (Executive Session Held) 8 THE CHAIRPERSON: We’re convened at 6:55 p.m. 9 I make a motion that we approve PB-24-18 - 10 Turtle Back Zoo Australian Outback Draft Resolution be 11 sent up to the Town Council that this application falls 12 within the guidelines of the Master Plan. 13 Do I have a second? 14 MR. RUTHERFORD: Second. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Council president second. 16 On the motion? 17 MS. VITE: Mr. Alper? 18 MR. ALPER: Yes. 19 MS. VITE: Mr. Klein? 20 MR. KLEIN: Was I here for that? 21 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible). 22 MR. KLEIN: Yeah, I don’t think I was here. 23 MS. VITE: Mr. Cardoza? 24 MR. CARDOZA: Yes. 25 MS. VITE: Ms. Kapferer? 7 1 MS. KAPFERER: Yes. 2 MS. VITE: Council President Rutherford? 3 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes. 4 MS. VITE: Mayor McCartney? 5 MS. McCARTNEY: Yes. 6 MS. VITE: Mr. Guarino? 7 MR. GUARINO: Yes. 8 MS. VITE: Chairman Bagoff? 9 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. 10 Motion’s adopted. 11 Will you swear in our Township professionals, 12 Ms. McGovern? 13 MS. McGOVERN: Mr. Hess and (indiscernible) 14 THE CHAIRPERSON Thank you. 15 In order to comply with the Open Public 16 Meetings Act, Chapter 231, Public Law 1975, the 17 following is in the annual notice of public meetings in 18 the Township of West Orange Planning Board 2025 has 19 been posted on our bulletin board. Does anybody have a 20 question on the Board about it? 21 Mr. Klein? 22 MR. KLEIN: Are the site plan review advisory 23 board meetings going to now be

rd 2025 has 19 been posted on our bulletin board. Does anybody have a 20 question on the Board about it? 21 Mr. Klein? 22 MR. KLEIN: Are the site plan review advisory 23 board meetings going to now be in person or are they 24 still going to be via Zoom? 25 MS. VITE: They’re still going to be in Zoom. 8 1 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yeah, Zoom. 2 MR. KLEIN: Okay. Because it says in person 3 here. 4 MS. VITE: No, it says in person and via 5 Zoom. 6 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, for the site plan 7 review advisory board. 8 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible). 9 MR. KLEIN: Zoom? Okay. So, that’s got to 10 change. 11 THE CHAIRPERSON: Do any other members of the 12 Board have any questions? Seeing none, I make a motion 13 that we adopt this meeting schedule for 2025. Do I 14 have a second? 15 MR. GUARINO: Second, Mr. Chairman. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Vice chairman second. 17 On the motion, Jamilet. 18 MS. VITE: Mr. Alper? 19 MR. ALPER: Yes. 20 MS. VITE: Mr. Klein? 21 MR. KLEIN: Yes. 22 MS. VITE: Mr. Wilkes? 23 MR. WILKES: Yes. 24 MS. VITE: Mr. Cardoza? 25 MR. CARDOZA: Yes.

9 1 MS. VITE: Ms. Kapferer? 2 MS. KAPFERER: Yes. 3 MS. VITE: Council President Rutherford? 4 MR. RUTHERFORD: Yes. 5 MS. VITE: Mayor McCartney? 6 MS. McCARTNEY: Yes. 7 MS. VITE: Mr. Guarino? 8 MR. GUARINO: Yes. 9 MS. VITE: Chairman Bagoff? 10 THE CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Vote carries. 11 PB-24-01 West Essex Highlands, Inc., Block 12 179, Lot 32 Zone: IH-1 Warner Road. We now have Mr. 13 Wayne DeFeo who was in the middle of questioning by the 14 public about his testimony. 15 Do any members of the public have any 16 questions for Mr. DeFeo on his testimony? Please come 17 up to the mic. 18 MS. McGOVERN: And just for the record, Mr. 19 DeFeo, you’re still under oath. 20 MR. DeFEO: Understood. 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: State your name for the 22 record, please, young lady? 23 MS. WHITE: My name is Barbara White and good 24 evening to everyone. And, Mr. DeFeo, this is actually 25 a continuation of questions I started asking the last 10 1 time. 2 MR. DeFEO: Okay. 3 MS. WHITE: And the first is, during your 4 testimony, you cited one or two successful 5 reforestation efforts through the use of deer fences. 6 If there’s an opportunity for members of the community, 7 and I am, I wanted to ask a couple questions on my 8 behalf and on behalf of my friends and neighbors. 9 With respect to the reforestation projects 10 that you looked at, are any of those in what I would 11 call encapsulated neighborhoods, in other words, 12 similar to what we have in this particular petition 13 which is 500 plus residences in the middle of an area 14 that is highly restricted? 15 MR. DeFEO: I can’t speak to the demographics 16 of your question -- are they within 500 home or is it 17 encapsulated. The closest fenced areas to you, or to 18 West Orange, to be more specific, would be the 19 reservation, South Mountain Reservation. There are 20 encapsulated areas in there, meaning there are deer 21 fenced areas in there as well as open areas. And, 22 clearly, South Mountain Reservation is on a much larger 23 as a piece of property is surrounded by residential. 24 MS. WHITE: Okay, so that’s really -- my 25 question really is, and I probably wasn’t very clear, 11 1 is within the areas are encapsulated. And we’re 2 looking at a property that has one road in and one 3 emergency road out. Have you seen any areas where you 4 had large condensed dwellings where most of it has deer 5 fence and other barriers to

’re 2 looking at a property that has one road in and one 3 emergency road out. Have you seen any areas where you 4 had large condensed dwellings where most of it has deer 5 fence and other barriers to be able to readily get out 6 in the event of a project-wide emergency? 7 MR. DeFEO: I’m not certain about the 8 question. None of these are generally planned around 9 that -- 10 MS. WHITE: Yeah, and that’s actually is my 11 question -- 12 MR. DeFEO: -- but there is more -- as a 13 point of -- I’m not the planner but as a point of 14 information, as I’ve read the plans, there actually are 15 three points of access and egress to that property, not 16 one. So that would not be an accurate statement to say 17 there’s only one egress or access point. That’s the 18 only thing I could answer to. 19 MS. WHITE: Okay. So, I guess -- make sure 20 I’m very clear in understanding that, in the work that 21 you did in determining that there was a like-kind 22 situation -- other properties versus this one, you did 23 not look at or encounter any area where you had heavy 24 forestation, limited access on uneven terrain that had 25 a large apartment unit or many units in the middle of 12 1 it? 2 MR. DeFEO: Specifically, it was not a site- 3 specific analysis, no. 4 MS. WHITE: Okay. That was question one. 5 MR. DeFEO: It wouldn’t be relevant. 6 MS. WHITE: I have another one. And this 7 one, again, may be out of your primary background and 8 information, but I am also curious since you’ve had the 9 opportunity on several occasions to walk the full 10 property and get, you know, some pretty decent 11 familiarity. 12 Based on your qualifications, I’m curious 13 about if you have any thoughts about what you might 14 have seen or might have been thinking in terms of the 15 ability for anyone to respond if we were to have 16 something similar to what we’ve had right now in New 17 Jersey -- fast-moving fire in a relatively small place? 18 MR. DeFEO: Well, again, I think this 19 question had come up last -- whatever week that was -- 20 I’m not sure of the date now -- 21 MS. WHITE: Yeah, I’m losing track of time, 22 too. 23 MR. DeFEO: But to answer your question, I’m 24 not a qualified fire expert, but I would say to you 25 that as of right now, the property has limited access

13 1 as with any wooded property. In fact, there’s no 2 technical access to the property today by road. I 3 would say, just by observation and common sense, the 4 property will have road access and fire hydrants, which 5 it does not today. 6 So, in light of today’s fire emergency 7 scenario that we have statewide, first of all, no one 8 could predict this, no one can design around this. The 9 simple fact is that this property today is fully 10 exposed. Just, again, using a common sense analysis, 11 in the future, the property would have road access and 12 fire hydrants which it does not have today. 13 MS. WHITE: Right. And what you wouldn’t be 14 about to speak to, I’m sure, is the adequacy is what is 15 in the plan relative to those things -- 16 MR. DeFEO: The fire department would have to 17 do that. 18 MS. WHITE: -- so that really is my question 19 -- 20 MR. DeFEO: That would be a fire department 21 question. 22 MS. WHITE: Absolutely. Okay. Thank you so 23 much. 24 MR. RUTHERFORD: Mr. Chairman, may I ask -- 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Council President 14 1 Rutherford? 2 MR. RUTHERFORD: How many points of ingress 3 and egress are there to this property? 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: At present? 5 MR. RUTHERFORD: Based on the proposed 6 design. 7 MR. DeFEO: I’m only citing based on what I 8 saw on the plans and looking at the maps, there would 9 be three. 10 MR. RUTHERFORD: Is that the Board’s 11 understanding? Mr. Dezilla (phonetic)? Mr. Hess? 12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It does show three. 13 They have asked that one not be put in, initially. 14 They wanted to have two and the other one they were 15 asking that that be held in reserve. 16 MR. RUTHERFORD: So, based on -- I just want 17 to be clear -- so, based on the way it’s proposed 18 today, there is one mode of ingress/egress for regular 19 traffic and one in case of emergency. So, there would 20 be two in case of emergency but one on a regular basis, 21 is that -- is my understanding right? 22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: They have a normal 23 regular access on the southerly side of the site with a 24 second one that’s proposed but they’re asking that that 25 not be installed. And then they have an emergency 15 1 access on the northerly side of the property. 2 MR. RUTHERFORD: And the second one that 3 they’re reserving, is that because of any settlements 4 or other agreements with other townships? 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, not

erly side of the property. 2 MR. RUTHERFORD: And the second one that 3 they’re reserving, is that because of any settlements 4 or other agreements with other townships? 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, not that I’m aware 6 of. I believe they asked -- they’ve shown it on the 7 plan. They’ve requested that the Board make a waiver 8 to not require it to be put in but that’s a Board 9 decision. 10 MR. RUTHERFORD: So, they are allowed to have 11 two points of ingress/egress without violating any of 12 the agreements they currently have? And one additional 13 -- 14 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We have a zone plan, 15 and it has to go with the zone plan, sir. 16 MS. McGOVERN: I think Mr. Plocker can speak 17 to that. 18 MR. PLOCKER: This is Bryan Plocker, Hutt, 19 Shimanowitz and Plocker, on behalf of the applicant. I 20 think Mr. Hess, your engineer, I think he got it right 21 at the end is that the plan, the site plan as 22 submitted, does propose the access on Kuzik Drive 23 However, we have requested a de minimis exception from 24 RSIS to have Kuzik serve as emergency access only. 25 MR. RUTHERFORD: So, that would be two? 16 1 MR. PLOCKER: What I said is what’s on the 2 plan. 3 MR. RUTHERFORD: Well, I would like to 4 understand. I mean, I need to understand it in 5 layman’s terms. 6 MR. PLOCKER: It would be -- what’s proposed 7 right now, before we get into any exceptions or waivers 8 would be access via Warner Road and Kuzik Drive with 9 emergency access up off of Howell Drive. The 10 application that was before the Board that was applied 11 for and what the Board is going to consider now, seeks 12 a de minimis -- seeks a de minimis exception from RSIS 13 to have the Kuzik Drive access serve as emergency 14 access only. 15 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: John, thank you. 16 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sir, come up to the mic, 17 say your name. 18 MR. HECK: I’m Werner Heck. I live on 84 19 Davey Drive in the West Essex Highlands. Our condo 20 overlooks the -- where Warner Road ends and the forest 21 begins. I’d like to address Mr. DeFeo’s claim of the 22 forest being unhealthy. To demonstrate that he had 23 compared two photos last time he was here. He said one 24 had a very long range of sight -- 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sir, the people in the back

17 1 can’t hear you. Could you speak more into the 2 microphone, please? Thank you. 3 MR. HECK: Yeah. He used two photos to 4 support some of his case. One photo showed clearly a 5 very long range of sight in the forest. But to me, 6 that seemed to be a picture of that forest in the 7 winter time. There were a lot of brown leaves on the 8 ground and there was no green vegetation anywhere. 9 Then he had the other picture showing a healthy forest. 10 It was clearly in the summer and with a lot of, you 11 know, greenery. 12 So, Mr. DeFeo, do you think that was a fair 13 comparison to show those two photos when, to me, one 14 seemed to be in the winter and one in the summer? 15 MR. DeFEO: You’re misunderstanding the 16 statement from what a healthy forest is and my point. 17 The point is not that the trees are there. The point 18 is not that there are large trees there -- there are, 19 indeed, large trees there. The health of the forest, 20 it is determined not so much and totally by the total 21 number of large trees. 22 The forest, as I stated last, was with the 23 trees that are there, with exceptions such as ash and 24 beech in particular, the trees that are there are 25 reasonably healthy. The forest is unhealthy on a long 18 1 term basis because there is no undergrowth. There are 2 no new trees coming in. 3 MR. HECK: But -- 4 MR. DeFEO: Whether it’s a winter or summer 5 image is irrelevant. 6 MR. HECK: But that was a winter photo. You 7 wouldn’t expect -- 8 MR. DeFEO: Young trees I would see. And the 9 simple fact is I could go get more photos if you like 10 but the simple fact is there is a dearth, statistically 11 and scientifically, of young trees in that forest. And 12 by every study done statewide, when you have a lack of 13 young trees to replace mature trees as they die, which 14 eventually will happen, you have an unhealthy forest. 15 MR. HECK: Okay. That may be so but I would 16 have preferred to see two summertime photos. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, sir. 18 Please step up to the mic and state your name 19 for the record. 20 MR. GUARINO: My name is Peter Guarino. I 21 live in the Highlands, by the way. I’m just confused a 22 bit. This gentleman mentioned three points of access 23 and somebody mentioned Kuzik Road as a point in access. 24 Kuzik Road goes into Warner. There’s only one means of 25 egress and access. Can somebody explain to me

n mentioned three points of access 23 and somebody mentioned Kuzik Road as a point in access. 24 Kuzik Road goes into Warner. There’s only one means of 25 egress and access. Can somebody explain to me how 19 1 there’s three or two or -- 2 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mr. Plocker? 3 MR. PLOCKER: I’m certainly not testifying as 4 an engineering professional, but I’ll repeat again. 5 So, the property is accessed from Eagle Rock Avenue via 6 Oval Road up Warner Road. From that point, the site 7 plan proposes that vehicular or pedestrian traffic can 8 continue off Warner into the proposed development or 9 make a left onto Kuzik Drive. 10 MR. GUARINO: Right. And Kuzik goes where? 11 It goes into the development which goes into Warner 12 Road. 13 MR. PLOCKER: We’re talking about access into 14 the development. Up Warner Road and you either head up 15 Warner or you make a left if you were walking up from 16 Oval Road. 17 MR. GUARINO: Right. 18 MR. PLOCKER: And Kuzik has proposed access 19 to the development. But part of this application is, 20 is that the access would be there but we are seeking 21 relief to allow Kuzik access to serve only as an 22 emergency access. 23 MR. GUARINO: Okay. So, you still only have 24 one means of egress and access. 25 MR. PLOCKER: If your point is that 20 1 eventually it all goes to one road, that’s absolutely 2 correct. But all -- 3 MR. GUARINO: That’s my point exactly. There 4 is one means of egress. 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. That’s the answer to 6 the question. Thank you. 7 MR. WEISLEDER: Hello. Seth Weisleder. I’m 8 from West Orange. So, my question is, this being a, 9 you stated several times it’s an unhealthy forest 10 mainly due to the deer and wildlife causing the issues. 11 With an unhealthy forest, how are slopes affected by an 12 unhealthy forest? Or a steep slope, how would that -- 13 there’s trees on these steep slopes, would you agree 14 with that? 15 MR. DeFEO: Yes. There are trees on a steep 16 slope and I can try to answer your question. Let me 17 see if I understand it correctly so I can answer it. 18 If I understand you correctly, your question is what is 19 the impact of the forest condition on the steep slopes? 20 MR. WEISLEDER: Correct. 21 MR. DeFEO: Okay. So, again, let me 22 emphasize, people keep using the term unhealthy forest 23 in a sense as if it’s being testified to that the 24 forest is dying. I am not saying

LEDER: Correct. 21 MR. DeFEO: Okay. So, again, let me 22 emphasize, people keep using the term unhealthy forest 23 in a sense as if it’s being testified to that the 24 forest is dying. I am not saying that. I have not 25 said that nor do I imply that.