November 13, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

e one 20 for the other and still meet the same condition of 21 native plants in the right area. Does that answer your 22 question? 23 MR. COVIAT: Yes. So, just as a 24 hypothetical, if the application is approved and you do 25 move to the building stage and you come into that 35 1 situation where, professionally, that there should be a 2 change to the proposal but the builder is equally 3 convinced that they shouldn’t make that change, what 4 happens? 5 THE CHAIRPERSON: (Indiscernible). 6 MR. COVIAT: If you must reach consensus but 7 you can’t reach consensus? 8 MS. McGOVERN: Well, they must work within 9 what’s required under the ordinance which has been set 10 by the Township for this site. So, there’s numbers and 11 basic guidelines. They have to abide by those basic 12 guidelines in the ordinance. 13 Anything above and beyond that would become, 14 I guess, a negotiation after the fact, witness spirit 15 of cooperation, but there’s only so much that this 16 Board can limit them to past what’s delineated in the 17 ordinance and, you know, we have conditions that we can 18 put on and they have agreed to several already, 19 conditions. But at this point, there’s no specifics 20 that we can say because if and when this project gets 21 built we don’t know what the plans that would be 22 available and what (indiscernible). 23 THE CHAIRPERSON: Considering the Township 24 has a forester, we have Mr. DeFeo and the applicant, 25 I’m sure, will hire their own forester, I’m sure they 36 1 will come to some consensus in their field of 2 expertise. They wouldn’t want to put something that’s 3 not going to survive and they’re definitely not going 4 to put something that’s going to be invasive. So, I 5 don’t know that you can put those words exactly into as 6 a condition but we’ve been -- for (indiscernible) we 7 have those words in the ordinance, and we’ll condition 8 it as we previously said. 9 MR. COVIAT: Okay. Thank you. Are there any 10 size or maturity requirements for these plantings 11 within the forest? 12 MR. DeFEO: There’s nothing that’s been 13 specified at this point. 14 MR. COVIAT: Okay. So, if it says 279 trees, 15 the trees could be seedlings or they could be -- 16 MR. DeFEO: No. The standard for landscaping 17 in New Jersey generally is a tree has to be one and a 18 half inches, it would be a sapling at that point, but 19 one and a half inches in

could be -- 16 MR. DeFEO: No. The standard for landscaping 17 in New Jersey generally is a tree has to be one and a 18 half inches, it would be a sapling at that point, but 19 one and a half inches in diameter is the generally 20 accepted landscape replacement tree. Whether or not 21 they would go larger or not would depend on the site 22 and their final determinations. 23 As I stated last, fact is that in many cases, 24 you know, we often say let’s put bigger trees in 25 because it has a bigger impact up front. There are two

37 1 sides to that coin. One is, yes, you can do that, but 2 we also find that larger trees require a lot more care 3 up front and there’s a higher mortality rate from what 4 I’ve seen. You want to balance those two risks. The 5 goal is to get a tree to grow and, hopefully, grow 6 fairly quickly. 7 MR. COVIAT: Thank you. You also had on the 8 slide about the native seed mixture for 37,388 square 9 feet. And what is the composition of this seed mixture 10 and what is it supposed to do and are you aware of any 11 studies as to the impact it is supposed to have? 12 MR. DeFEO: I don’t have the list in my head 13 of the native seed mixture. It was on the landscape 14 plan which I don’t have in front of me. And I looked 15 at it, it is consisting of native plants for this 16 particular part of the country. 17 As far as its impact, I’ve seen native plant 18 restorations done before and if they’re done well, and 19 we would hope they would do them well, the impact is 20 you get fairly quick germination and you have fairly 21 quick stabilization. 22 I’ve done two that have worked well. I’ve 23 done one particularly that worked fairly well at our 24 environment center in West Orange and one that didn’t 25 work out so well. But that was just due to lack of 38 1 care. So, it really depends on follow up care. 2 Like, any seed mixture, you know, if you put 3 seed down on your lawn this fall, probably not going to 4 very well, you know, unless you watered it, right? But 5 in this case, it would be planting at the right time, 6 putting it in under the right conditions. I presume 7 we’ll get rain again in the spring, you know, and 8 that’s when those kinds of things will be determined. 9 MR. COVIAT: I also have not seen the 10 landscaping plan but it does occur to me that you, if 11 you’ve reviewed it before, whether you had an 12 distinctive thoughts about the proposal within the area 13 of disturbance? 14 MR. DeFEO: My looking at that landscape 15 plan, and I’ve looked at a lot of landscape plans for 16 developments over the years, being in my own 17 environmental commission and we review them fairly 18 heavily, this is one of the better ones I’ve seen. 19 There was not a let me see if I can slip in this 20 species or that species or some arcane hybrid. It was 21 very clean in terms of picking native species and 22 native plants. 23 The layout I leave to the applicant

let me see if I can slip in this 20 species or that species or some arcane hybrid. It was 21 very clean in terms of picking native species and 22 native plants. 23 The layout I leave to the applicant because 24 it’s around their buildings but even on its face I 25 didn’t see something that would jump out at me and say 39 1 oh my goodness, you’re putting this tree next to a 2 building, are you nuts. I’m not seen that kind of 3 error. it looks like they took a fair amount of care. 4 Again, it’s not finalized I realize, but it looked like 5 it was very well done compared to others that I have 6 seen. 7 MR. COVIAT: Okay. When you say well done, 8 do you think that will be effective in addressing in 9 any potential problems with erosion, the soil erosion, 10 or with water runoff? 11 MR. DeFEO: Well, this particular landscape 12 plan is fundamentally for -- let me go back and just 13 show it -- not the landscape plan, but the general area 14 -- 15 MR. COVIAT: Well, my concern is it’s the top 16 of the hill, so everywhere is down. 17 MR. DeFEO: Yeah, yeah, no, I get that. 18 But the landscape plan itself really isn’t, 19 per se, with the exception of the seed mixture which is 20 to help stabilize soil. This area isn’t being planted. 21 This area will regenerate on its own basis. 22 So, in terms of erosion and control, if 23 that’s your primary concern, the area as it regenerates 24 will take care of that. Where there’s disturbed area 25 and they’re going to seed, that area, the young 40 1 plantings that come in because they’re herbaceous 2 plantings, not trees or shrubs, will help to stabilize 3 those areas much more quickly. And in my experience, 4 that works out pretty well. 5 MR. COVIAT: Thank you. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. 7 Do any members of the public have any 8 questions for Mr. DeFeo about his testimony, please 9 come up and be recognized. 10 State your name for the record, sir? 11 MR. McGLYNN: Yeah, it’s Mike McGlynn, 55 12 Lapis Circle and hello, Mr. DeFeo, the Mayor. Anyway, 13 I’ve lived in the community for just about -- 14 THE CHAIRPERSON: Sir, come closer to the 15 microphone. People in the back can’t hear you. 16 MR. McGLYNN: I’ve lived in the homeowner’s 17 association area for the last four years. And my main 18 concern has to do with the water flow and all the trees 19 being cut down. I’m probably the closest unit next to 20 Canoe Brook,

homeowner’s 17 association area for the last four years. And my main 18 concern has to do with the water flow and all the trees 19 being cut down. I’m probably the closest unit next to 20 Canoe Brook, literally, a couple of feet away from it. 21 We’ve already had an issue where a tree from the brook, 22 after a big storm in the spring, was leaning against 23 our house and then several trees had to be cut down. 24 So, my concern is whether all these trees 25 being knocked down and all the construction about all

41 1 the water flow if there’s been enough studies for the 2 effect on increased -- you know, there’s been times 3 over the past year, it’s not raining now but last year 4 and early this year it was raining quite a bit and 5 there’s been quite a bit of water flow down Canoe Brook 6 which ends up in the golf course and it’s come pretty 7 close to overflowing already so with all the trees 8 coming down, just wondering about what the effect, 9 besides all the other issues like the parking, I mean, 10 the traffic. So, that’s my concern. 11 MR. DeFEO: I really can’t speak to that. 12 That would be an engineering question and the 13 engineering has already been testified to. I can’t 14 testify to the engineering. 15 MR. McGLYNN: Okay. That’s about all I had 16 to say but I just wanted to express my concerns. 17 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Do any other members 18 of the public have any questions? 19 Okay. Mr. Afran, you’re up, sir. 20 MR. AFRAN: Good evening. For the record, 21 I’m Bruce Afran, counsel for WeCare New Jersey. 22 EXAMINATION BY MR. AFRAN: 23 Q Mr. DeFeo, you or your company are presently 24 employed in some capacity with the town aside from this 25 engagement here, is that correct? 42 1 A Yes. I have a separate contract with the 2 Township, yes. 3 Q And what is the subject of that contract? 4 A As the environmental compliance officer, my 5 fundamental responsibility is to inspect and ensure 6 compliance at the West Orange Recycling Center where 7 the leaves are composted and the wood is processed. 8 Q How long have you had that responsibility? 9 A I believe that started -- yeah, that started on an 10 emergency basis in 2005. 11 Q And have you continued in that capacity with 12 the town since 2005? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Since 2005, aside from this engagement on 15 this application, have you had any expansion of your 16 responsibilities with the town other than the recycling 17 function? 18 A Yes, I’ve had one other which was a one time 19 processing -- sorry, let met rephrase that. I worked 20 with the Township on the development of its solid waste 21 and recycling bid specifications. 22 Q And does that represent the extent of your 23 work with the Township aside from this site plan 24 application? 25 A In terms of specific contracts, I think I had one 43 1 other short contract working -- it was during COVID, 2 helping to develop safety procedures for well

ide from this site plan 24 application? 25 A In terms of specific contracts, I think I had one 43 1 other short contract working -- it was during COVID, 2 helping to develop safety procedures for well health 3 and safety standards, actually, reviewing them would be 4 a better way of putting it not developing them. The 5 Township had a very good program on its own, to the 6 credit of its staff. 7 Q Did I understand you to say well as in well, 8 you mean, water from a well? 9 A No. No, well as in healthy. 10 Q Okay. So, that’s why I clarified. What did 11 that healthy element refer to? What type of work? 12 A Well health and safety means you review both the 13 policies and procedures of a staff and building as well 14 as the nature of what’s being done to the building. 15 For example, if you look behind you, you’ll see an air 16 filtration system in this building. 17 During COVID, those things were put in -- 18 again, the Township took the initiative in putting that 19 kind of system in place. It was to help review those 20 systems. As you walk into this building, you’ll see 21 there’s one way in and one way out. You will see hand 22 sanitizers, that sort of thing. It helps to review 23 what are the policies and the procedures of the system. 24 Q So, well as in wellness? 25 A Well, as in wellness, yes. 44 1 A Good. Thank you. I wanted to clarify. 2 Now, tell us what actual specialized 3 training, either academically during your master’s 4 degree program or otherwise you have in forestry? 5 A Well, as I’ve already testified, I am not a 6 forester. I am a biologist with concentrations in 7 botany and ornithology. I am also -- I have a master’s 8 in environmental studies which you would call today 9 probably sustainability. That was how the title would 10 have evolved over time. My concentrations in my 11 master’s would have been environmental science with 12 concentrations also in botany and ornithology as well 13 as environmental education. 14 Q Ornithology as in the study of birds, you 15 said? 16 A Correct. 17 Q Now, my question was what training do you 18 have in the field of forestry? 19 A As I stated, I am not a forester. I am trained as 20 -- I would be qualified as a botanist if you were to 21 look at my speciality. 22 Q And, again, my question is what training do 23 you have in the field of forestry? 24 A I’ll try to answer that again. 25 Q Do you have

ified as a botanist if you were to 21 look at my speciality. 22 Q And, again, my question is what training do 23 you have in the field of forestry? 24 A I’ll try to answer that again. 25 Q Do you have any? If you don’t, say no.

45 1 A Yes, I have taken courses in towards getting my 2 degree in botany I’ve done, let’s see, I have one 3 report that was done, published, where I did my own 4 independent study in a forestry analysis at Valhalla 5 Glen in New Jersey analyzing the impacts of an insect 6 called Fiorinia Externa Ferris, which was a scale 7 insect on the eastern hemlock forest. In that forestry 8 analysis I would have done a complete analysis using 9 quadrat analysis, an analysis of the forest 10 identification. 11 Towards my master’s, I would have taught 12 multiple courses in forest management. 13 Q I’m sorry, you would have taught or took? 14 A Taught multiple courses and taken courses 15 simultaneously in forestry and forest management. I 16 was -- I don’t know that they even have this 17 certification much, but I was certified as a Project 18 Learning Tree instructor which was done by the Western 19 Regional Environmental Education Council where I was 20 trained as an instructor on forestry. 21 WREEC and/or Project Learning Tree were used 22 to teach curricula on forestry and forest management to 23 teachers in order to teach students about the proper 24 means of forest management. I also would have worked 25 at that time teaching Project Wild, which would have 46 1 been a wildlife management curriculum. 2 And to answer your question further, the 3 point being that wildlife curricula and forestry 4 curricula and forest management curricula, as well as 5 botany and environmental studies and ecology, all of 6 which was training that I’ve had, the point being, you 7 look at the entire forest. A forester looks at, 8 specifically -- let me rephrase that. A forester looks 9 primarily at forest management. Forest management is 10 different than environmental science and his different 11 than the ecology of a forest. 12 It does not mean a forester does not look at 13 the ecology, what it does mean is a forester is looking 14 at a forest for a specific reason, typically, not 15 always, but typically, to look at that forest as a 16 harvestable crop versus looking at the forest as a 17 healthy ecosystem. 18 Now, you can’t -- you can have without the 19 other so a forester might say it’s okay to plant this 20 species of tree. We’ll just pick loblolly pine in the 21 south because it grows quickly. And a forester will 22 look at the spacing and the culling and the speed with 23 which

’s okay to plant this 20 species of tree. We’ll just pick loblolly pine in the 21 south because it grows quickly. And a forester will 22 look at the spacing and the culling and the speed with 23 which that’s done for the purpose of getting the 24 greatest amount of board feet out of the forest in the 25 shortest period of time. 47 1 An environmental scientist will look at that 2 and say that forest is not really great and healthy 3 because it’s a monoculture and we don’t like that. As 4 I -- 5 Q We don’t have a monoforest here. 6 A You do not. You have an oak , primarily oak mixed 7 hardwood forest. 8 Q Now, we do have a town forester, do we not? 9 A You do have a town forester. 10 Q That’s Mr. Kipp -- Walter Kipp, is that 11 correct? 12 A That is correct. 13 Q Now, you’re not suggesting that he’s 14 interested in managing the town forest to sell it as a 15 crop, are you? 16 A I am not. He has a different charge 17 Q Did you consult with Mr. Kipp before making 18 any recommendations to the town with respect to -- 19 A He was not hired at the time I was doing that. 20 Q When was Mr. Kipp hired? 21 A I don’t know, but he wasn’t here then. 22 Q He’s here now. 23 A No, I know, but he was not here when I was 24 negotiating and developing all of this. 25 Q Have you spoken to Mr. Kipp since? 48 1 A On this issue, no. 2 Q Don’t you think consulting with the town 3 forester would be valuable in terms of developing the 4 whole range of testimony and ideas you’ve presented 5 here? 6 A Well, as I noted, again, this entire plan of 7 action vis-a-vis deer fencing et cetera that you see up 8 there was negotiated before he started and finalized. 9 So, there really would not be much point. 10 Q You mentioned Project Wild, that was a 11 project for teaching school children, isn’t that 12 correct? 13 A Teachers. 14 Q Sorry? 15 A And school children. 16 Q Correct -- 17 A The curriculum was for students. My job was to 18 teach teachers. 19 Q All right. So, you taught teachers who 20 taught school children about what exactly? 21 A In the Project Wild curriculum, that was wildlife 22 management as developed by that plan, discussing, for 23 example, and using wildlife ecology as a way to teach 24 math by using carrying capacity. 25 Q What grades were those children?