November 13, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

w. Do you recall saying that? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Well, then why didn’t you do any study of 21 wildlife or birds and the impact of this project on 22 that wildlife, if that’s what you do holistically? 23 A First, as I stated, I was not charged to do a 24 wildlife analysis because I know that DEEP will be 25 looking at whether or not there are species or whether

133 1 or not there are any other species of concern on 2 plants or animals on site. But, I say that as an 3 environmental scientist, I look holistically at the 4 property, wildlife, at all. I am looking to see what 5 the general impacts are of anything on the property. 6 First, looking at this property, and based on 7 my observations and on the tree study, but on my 8 observations as well, I can see that it’s an unhealthy 9 wildlife habitat simply because there is very little 10 variation or under story growth. To have a healthy 11 wildlife habitat you need to have multiple tiers of 12 growth. You need ground growth, you need under story 13 growth, you need shrubs which are under stories, small 14 trees and large trees, a greater the variety of plants 15 on the property, when I look at a forest, I look at the 16 variation of plants. Yes, I have variations of the 17 species, but the answer to the question you asked was 18 an answer to a question of what is the difference 19 between a forester or an arborist would look at or a 20 tree expert would look at compared to what an 21 environmental scientist or ecologist might look at on a 22 property. 23 And as I was explaining that at that time or 24 trying to explain that an arborist or a forester or a 25 tree expert is looking at a very simple -- I’m going to 134 1 rephrase that, that’s not fair, in a much more myopic 2 view. Yes, do they take into account that there are 3 other issues within that forest? Certainly. But, they 4 don’t look at it for that reason. They all have 5 different charges for different components. I was 6 explaining that, that’s where that answer comes from. 7 In my case when I look at a forest, I am 8 looking at it and saying, for the way I was trained, 9 hey, is this forest healthy for all things living 10 there? My answer in this forest is no. 11 Q Well, you told us your holistic approach 12 means you look at birds, plants, everything. Fair to 13 say you didn’t look at wildlife at all, isn’t that 14 true? 15 A No. What is fair to say is I did not do any sort 16 of analysis about wildlife on the property. I made 17 observational changes, observational -- I made 18 observations, sorry, on the property and your 19 conclusion is predicated on my experience of what a 20 healthy forest should be in the way of life. 21 Q As to wildlife the only observation you 22 reported to the Board was that

property and your 19 conclusion is predicated on my experience of what a 20 healthy forest should be in the way of life. 21 Q As to wildlife the only observation you 22 reported to the Board was that there was seven to ten 23 deer that you say, isn’t that correct? 24 A Statistically, there is no data given to the 25 Board, all I stated to the Board was in the one day we 135 1 happened to see seven to ten deer. I did not do a 2 statistical wildlife analysis on this property. 3 Q I simply asked, aside from saying you saw 4 seven to ten deer on the site, you offered no other 5 information about wildlife on the property, isn’t that 6 correct? 7 A I did not offer a wildlife analysis on this 8 property. I was not charged with doing so. 9 Q Data, do you have in terms of the damage to 10 the deer fence, some other sites to the fence, the tree 11 fells and related matters? 12 A I don’t have specific data on that. 13 MR. AFRAN: I just need a moment to 14 speak to my colleague for a second. 15 Q I’d like to talk to you about the tree 16 species that you identified on the site. 17 A Okay. 18 Q You identified some of them in your report at 19 Item 3 on Page 2, oak, several species of oak, rather, 20 maple, hickory, flowering dogwood, sassafras, American 21 beech, black cherry. Are there any others that you’ve 22 identified on the site? Is there another chart that 23 contains that? 24 A In the original tree study there were a number of 25 other species identified. We just didn’t -- we weren’t 136 1 asked to do an identification, they were observed but, 2 we had a number of others that were there that were 3 greater than four inches in diameter. We observed, I 4 think you said red maple or red (indiscernible), you 5 did, right? 6 Q You said maple, in general. 7 A Okay. We observed red maple, black birch, I’m 8 using the common language, proper names not Latin. 9 Pignut hickory, a shagbark hickory, mockernut hickory, 10 American beech, green ash, tulip, black oak, white oak, 11 chestnut oak, red oak, black oak and sassafras which I 12 think you did mention, in that site. Those were the 13 ones we just happened to observe. There might be 14 other, but that would be a good mix of what’s in that 15 property. Some of those are wetlands species, some of 16 them are not. 17 Q Well, so, you -- there were a few that you 18 did not include. The tulip, black gum and -- tulip and 19

of what’s in that 15 property. Some of those are wetlands species, some of 16 them are not. 17 Q Well, so, you -- there were a few that you 18 did not include. The tulip, black gum and -- tulip and 19 black gum for example. 20 Now, in terms of these species, in terms of 21 the large trees you’ve seen, 24 to 36 inches, what is 22 the average linesman of these trees? 23 A Everyone of these trees has a different linesman. 24 Oaks could, a white oak, the oldest living one that was 25 recently cut down that I know of, was 250 years old.

137 1 That was cut down in Basking Ridge at the year ‘02 I 2 believe. It was down since the time -- the Washington 3 oak down in Princeton was over 200 years. That was 4 also, I believe, a white oak. Trees such as sassafras 5 and black cherry have a relatively short linesman. 6 Sassafras might live 50 years. And, again, bear in 7 mind when I say linesman, we all have a linesman, it’s 8 totally variable on the conditions the tree is 9 experiencing at the time. So, some of these are 10 shorter lived, some are longer lived. Tulip trees have 11 a pretty good linesman, they tend to be very brittle, 12 so it’s all over the place. There’s no set answer is 13 the short answer. 14 Q Well, I assume that, I’m asking of different 15 species. A Yes. 16 Q What would be the linesman typically of the 17 tulip tree? 18 A It varies. I mean tulip trees live over a hundred 19 years, but, it may not. You know there are a number of 20 other factors that affect that, of course. 21 Q Now, what about the various maple species 22 that you’ve seen on the site? 23 A Same thing. There’s all variables, but maple -- 24 Q I’m speaking about the different species. 25 A It’s all variable. I mean trees with anywhere 138 1 from -- there are sugar maples which we didn’t 2 particularly observe, although I may have seen there in 3 the last visit, there are sugar maples well over 100 4 years old in the United States, but, I can’t tell you 5 the age of any given tree on a given property because 6 you really can’t judge a tree by looking at it. You 7 can’t judge -- 8 Q I don’t mean to interrupt you, I don’t mean 9 to interrupt you, I didn’t ask you to judge the age of 10 a given tree, I just asked you to typically identify 11 the linesman of the different species you’ve 12 identified. 13 A The oldest trees in our area could be 250 years 14 old. None of these would be, in my opinion. The 15 oldest living things, of course, are not in this area, 16 but the oldest trees in this area, the oldest species 17 that -- what would be the term I’m looking for -- 18 greatest life expectancy of species in this area, 19 probably in the 250-year range. That’s a pretty good 20 run if you’re a tree. 21 Q Well, that’s -- you’re referring to the oaks 22 that you’ve seen. 23 A Hum? 24 Q You’re referring to the oak trees that you’ve 25 -- 139 1 A That’s what I’m saying, that’s an extraordinary 2 run. 3 Q Now, let’s talk

you’re referring to the oaks 22 that you’ve seen. 23 A Hum? 24 Q You’re referring to the oak trees that you’ve 25 -- 139 1 A That’s what I’m saying, that’s an extraordinary 2 run. 3 Q Now, let’s talk about the maple species, what 4 is the different species of maple that you identified, 5 red maple. For example, what is its typical linesman? 6 A Off the top of my head I don’t have that. It 7 varies. Well, it’s not anywhere near an oak tree. 8 Q Do you know it, yes or no 9 A No, because I don’t have it off the top of my 10 head. 11 Q Black birch, what’s its typical linesman? 12 A Again, I haven’t memorized the life expectancy of 13 every species of tree. Black birch would have what I 14 would call a relatively short life expectancy compared 15 to a oak or a maple. 16 Q Do you have any knowledge of the typical life 17 expectancy of black birch? 18 A I think I just stated, I have not memorized the 19 life expectancy of each species. I certainly could 20 look them up, but, I haven’t memorized them. 21 Q Shagbark hickory? 22 A Shagbark hickories do live a long time, but, 23 again, I can’t give you the specific life expectancy 24 because I have not memorized the life expectancy of 25 each species. Hickory would be a longer lived species 140 1 than birch. 2 Q Do you have any understanding of the typical 3 linesman of shagbark trees? 4 A I did not memorize the individual life 5 expectancies of individual species. 6 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Mr. Afran, we’re 7 done with the tree life. He says -- we’re going to put 8 that all together, he doesn’t know the life of the 9 trees, let’s move on. 10 MR. AFRAN: Well, I’m testing the point. 11 Thank you. 12 Q With respect to the condition of approval 13 that you recommended on the areas of disturbance to 14 identify specimen trees, that survey would be done only 15 after approval of the plan under your recommendation, 16 is that correct? 17 A I don’t have the sequence of work. 18 Q Well, you said it would be a condition of 19 approval, didn’t you? 20 A I just don’t understand the -- I don’t understand 21 the sequence of the process, I can’t answer it. 22 Q Well, you said in your report that you 23 recommended it as a condition of approval, didn’t you, 24 that there would be as survey done as to specimen trees 25 in the area of disturbance.

141 1 A I know that’s what it says in the report, but I 2 can’t answer as to the sequence of the way things 3 occur, we don’t know. 4 Q Well, wouldn’t that occur only after the plan 5 is approved if it’s a condition of approval? 6 A I don’t -- I’d be guessing, I don’t know, you’d 7 have to ask counsel or someone else, I’m not familiar 8 with the procedural sequence that they would follow. 9 Q So, no survey of specimen trees in terms of 10 the area of disturbance has been done as of yet, is 11 that correct? 12 A Correct. My recommendation is that we do one. 13 Q All right. Now, if the specimen trees are 14 identified where the buildings are or where the roads 15 are going to be or the detention basin or other 16 structures, you’ll have a conflict between your goal of 17 preserving them and the plan which would allow them to 18 be destroyed, is that -- how will you then build this 19 project if the specimen trees are going to be in the 20 middle of building deeper. 21 A Specimen tree, a specimen tree or a creative 22 interest in note of size is found where there’s a 23 building, that tree is not going to be considered for 24 preservation. The goal is try to find those trees that 25 might be within the area of disturbance, that might be 142 1 in such an -- in an area in such a way that he could 2 preserve them. For example, and I don’t have an exact 3 tree here, just bear that in mind with me. So, could 4 you zoom in on that for just a moment for me please? 5 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I’m sorry, I was 6 dozing. 7 THE WITNESS: I have that affect on people, 8 I’m sorry. Sorry. It’s that time of night. So, just 9 by illustration, okay, if you have an area where it’s 10 going to be unmade, but still theoretically in the area 11 of disturbance, let’s say right here just for argument 12 sake. Let’s just say hypothetically we, with our GIS 13 plotting and everything else, say hey, we’ve got a 36 14 inch white oak sitting here, that would be a point of 15 negotiation with the builder, saying we’ve got this 16 really nice specimen tree, we got it marked and tagged, 17 can we work around it and fence around it? Some of 18 that tree would live, hard to say, you never know, but 19 if the builder is willing to work with us on it, that’s 20 what we would do. It’s the same with big trees around 21 this complex. If there’s a tree here, for example, 22 that might provide shade and

9 if the builder is willing to work with us on it, that’s 20 what we would do. It’s the same with big trees around 21 this complex. If there’s a tree here, for example, 22 that might provide shade and it happens to be a 23 specimen tree and we work to save it, that’s what we’d 24 be identifying. Where trees are in the middle of 25 roadways, there’s nothing we’re doing. They may be 143 1 there, but they’re not going to be saved. 2 Q And where they’re in the middle of buildings, 3 for example, the same would apply. 4 A Of course, yes. 5 Q Don’t you think this survey should be done 6 before the plan is approved, to know whether some large 7 number are specimen trees or valuable trees to be of 8 interest are about to be destroyed? 9 A Yes. 10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That’s fine with us. 11 MR. AFRAN: Mr. Chairman, I think it’s ten 12 o’clock. 13 THE CHAIRPERSON: Time. 14 MR. AFRAN: Thank you. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Okay. The next 16 special meeting of the planning board will be held 17 December 11th, 6:30 p.m. in council chambers. No 18 additional notice will be required and that will be for 19 application PB-24-01 West Essex Highlands, Inc., Block 20 179, Lot 32, Zone IH-1, where Mr. DeFeo will continue 21 with cross by Mr. Afran. Mr. Afran is going to have 22 something on the website tomorrow or the next day. 23 MR. AFRAN I’d rather if I could do it 24 Monday, I tend to doubt I’ll get if of by Friday. 25 THE CHAIRPERSON: Monday? 144 1 MR. AFRAN: Yeah, is Monday all right? 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: Monday. One other thing, 3 Mr. Afran just housekeeping. Are the people that you 4 represent, they know they’re not to speak and they 5 haven’t come up to the microphone to questions, is that 6 correct? 7 MR. AFRAN: I don’t believe they have at this 8 point. There was one individual who did want to raise 9 an issue personal to her property not in terms of the 10 group interest. So, I was going to raise that special 11 before she did. But, one or two of those individuals 12 or some of those individuals might be called as 13 witnesses by me, but that decision hasn’t been made 14 yet. 15 THE CHAIRPERSON: That’s different. 16 MR. AFRAN: I have instructed them not to 17 speak in the public portion. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you. And -- 19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, there’s 20 no further notice required for -- 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: I did, I did, no further 22

k in the public portion. 18 THE CHAIRPERSON: Okay, thank you. And -- 19 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Mr. Chairman, there’s 20 no further notice required for -- 21 THE CHAIRPERSON: I did, I did, no further 22 notice to be required. Absolutely. And the next 23 regular planning board meeting will be held, Wednesday, 24 December 4th, 2024 at 7:30 p.m. via Zoom. Do I have a 25 motion to adjourn?

145 1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: So moved. 2 THE CHAIRPERSON: So moved. All in favor? 3 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 4 THE CHAIRPERSON: Any nays? I ayes are above 5 the no’s. Thank you all, thank you all on Zoom. Have 6 a wonderful evening. And Happy Thanksgiving. 7 * * * * * 8 C E R T I F I C A T I O N 9 WE, ALYCE STINE and ELAINE HOWELL, the 10 assigned transcribers, do hereby certify the foregoing 11 transcript of proceedings on CD is prepared in full 12 compliance with the current Transcript Format for 13 Judicial Proceedings and is a true and accurate 14 non-compressed transcript of the proceedings as 15 recorded, and to the best of our ability. 16 17 18 /s/ Alyce H. Stine 19 ALYCE H. STINE 20 21 /s/ Elaine Howell 22 ELAINE HOWELL 23 FISHMAN COURT REPORTING DATE: December 9, 2024 24 25