December 11, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

PLOCKER: Yes. The storm water,1 extension of LOI, I believe they are filed in the town.2 MR. AFRAN: May I explain one moment. On3 the storm water issue and the question of which set of4 rules govern, the older rule or the new rule. The DEP5 did, as Ms. McGovern just said, ruled the old rule6 applies. We are appealing that and will be asking for a7 hearing on the issue and later there will be an appeal8 to the Appellate Division. That's an issue that's not9 resolved, but it's not for this board.10 MS. McGOVERN: Exactly, and that's my point.11 We're not discussing that, we're not overruling DEP, we12 can not do that.13 MR. AFRAN: Our point only is with respect14 to trees, which is not really a direct DEP adjudicatory15 area. There is a rule that came about because the16 statutory mandate and an argument at the time of17 decision governs, not time of --18 MR. PLOCKER: We can't go --19 MS. McGOVERN: That's a fine argument that20 is not related at this. After you do your experts I get21 it, you're going to have that argument for the board and22 it will culminate in, I think, closing arguments.23 MR. AFRAN: We'll bring it out through our24 own experts to show the differences first, but also we25 96 think it governs the board. But it's an argument the1 board has to decide for itself and if we disagree there2 might be litigation.3 MS. McGOVERN: Proofs have to be submitted4 to establish which, if in fact, it does --5 MR. AFRAN: Well, there's no difference, it6 wouldn't matter. We intend to show there's a difference7 between the two.8 MS. McGOVERN: There's a number of things9 that have to be worked out.10 COUNCIL PRESIDENT RUTHERFORD: My last11 question was, with regard to the 2010, the three areas12 that were studied, is it possible to get an overlay of13 the current proposed project versus those areas that14 were studied, so we could see how much, if any of it, is15 actually in the proposed area of disturbance?16 MR. AFRAN: We'd have to have someone do a17 CAD and put them to the same scale. It takes a little18 time to do.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry, that's up to20 the objector?21 MR. AFRAN: Yeah. Well, obviously you can't22 force Mr. DeFeo to do it. We can look into if it's cost23 prohibitive.24 COUNCIL PRESIDENT RUTHERFORD: I would like25

25 of 38 sheets Page 97 to 100 of 100 01/08/2025 12:06:06 PM 97 to know. And I'm not trying to run up the cost for1 anyone, I would just like to know how applicable that2 2010 study is to this particular project now. The3 numbers to me are concerning. They're different than4 what we have been presented and if they are applicable,5 I would like to know. If they are not applicable then6 it has a lot less weight.7 MR. AFRAN: Well, you know, we offer a8 simple proposition that we have two sets of numbers, Mr.9 DeFeo's study and this earlier study. Regardless what10 they're developing, the forest is the forest, so if one11 study says you got 212 and the other says almost three12 times as much, we say you have two different forests and13 it's a question to resolve. I don't think the14 development itself matters, but what we're saying is15 that this, from the developer, this is an admission by16 the developer, the developers own tree study submitted17 here in the earlier plan. It's the same forest. So18 we're saying it doesn't matter what the development is19 now versus then. The trees are the same.20 COUNCIL PRESIDENT RUTHERFORD: I understood21 that argument and accept that argument, right. Because22 we actually had a sidebar. I understand that argument23 and accept that argument. In addition to that I would24 still like to see how much of that study area was in the25 98 area of disturbance, if possible. If it's not a easy1 thing to do then --2 MR. AFRAN: We will ask our engineer to do3 it. The trouble is, I mean no disrespect to any4 engineers in the room, sometimes we ask that and there's5 a $7,000 bill that comes with that.6 COUNCIL PRESIDENT RUTHERFORD: Okay. I get7 it. So --8 MR. AFRAN: We'll try. As tough a thing it9 is to do, we will try to look into it.10 COUNCIL PRESIDENT RUTHERFORD: Thank you11 very much.12 MR. AFRAN: Can I ask one last question of13 Mr. DeFeo, referencing something Mr. Rutherfod asked.14 Just to clarify.15 You referred to the rolling mean concept, right?16 Q. Yes.17 A. That simply means that you've looked at enough of18 Q. the spot checks to satisfy yourself that nothing's19 really changing, you stopped and you used the data that20 you collected up to that point?21 Correct.22 A. MR. AFRAN: That's all I wanted to ask.23 THE WITNESS: Yes.24 MR. AFRAN: Thank you very much.25 99 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Thank you.1 (Hearing concludes at

lected up to that point?21 Correct.22 A. MR. AFRAN: That's all I wanted to ask.23 THE WITNESS: Yes.24 MR. AFRAN: Thank you very much.25 99 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Thank you.1 (Hearing concludes at 8:42 PM.)2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 100 C E R T I F I C A T E1 I, ERIC S. FISHMAN, a Shorthand Reporter and2 Notary Public of the State of New Jersey do3 hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate4 transcript of the testimony as taken stenographically by5 and before me at the time, place and on the date6 hereinbefore set forth, to the best of my ability.7 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither a8 relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel of any of9 the parties to the action; and that I am neither a10 relative nor employee of such attorney or counsel; and11 that I am not financially interested in the action.12 13 14 ---------------------15 ERIC S. FISHMAN, S.R.16 17 18 19 20 Dated:__________________21 22 23 24 25

01/08/2025 12:06:06 PM Page 1 to 1 of 13 26 of 38 sheets $ $7,000 [1] - 98:6 0 0-3 [2] - 3:7, 58:3 0-4 [2] - 3:8, 59:19 0.6 [4] - 22:4, 40:23, 41:13, 41:19 0.61 [1] - 39:11 07052 [1] - 2:8 07095 [1] - 2:4 07960 [1] - 1:24 08540 [1] - 2:11 1 1 [8] - 1:13, 81:7, 81:16, 82:5, 85:23 1-40 [1] - 24:15 10 [27] - 2:10, 20:2, 20:3, 20:6, 20:7, 22:20, 28:7, 30:8, 30:9, 30:18, 30:22, 48:18, 60:4, 61:9, 61:25, 63:5, 74:11, 85:22 10,000 [17] - 9:1, 10:1, 10:2, 10:3, 20:20, 20:22, 22:6, 22:8, 22:9, 25:21, 32:10, 32:12, 32:16, 32:21, 39:8, 39:10 10.5 [2] - 66:18, 66:19 100 [16] - 20:2, 20:4, 20:6, 20:12, 30:10, 30:17, 30:22, 31:11, 40:8, 67:3, 72:17, 79:8, 79:17, 88:19 102 [1] - 2:7 11 [1] - 1:3 113 [3] - 21:6, 21:17, 41:21 12 [6] - 16:3, 35:23, 85:18, 85:20, 85:21 12,000 [1] - 76:18 120 [1] - 41:15 120-acre [1] - 4:5 136 [2] - 83:10, 83:20 1440 [1] - 1:24 15,000 [3] - 57:3, 75:4, 82:6 150 [1] - 45:4 16 [8] - 18:14, 25:18, 71:4, 71:12, 85:18, 85:21, 85:22 17 [1] - 25:22 179 [1] - 4:2 182 [5] - 12:14, 12:16, 14:8, 84:12, 91:2 2 2 [22] - 1:13, 12:12, 12:18, 12:24, 13:5, 14:9, 14:15, 14:16, 21:3, 21:17, 38:19, 49:25, 50:3, 51:15, 51:16, 51:20, 57:1, 85:23, 86:9, 86:11, 86:12, 88:6 2,200 [2] - 20:16, 20:17 2.2 [9] - 9:3, 9:5, 22:5, 39:18, 39:21, 40:6, 40:17, 41:8, 47:2 2.5 [1] - 81:17 20 [3] - 62:9, 85:18, 85:22 20,000 [1] - 51:17 20,666 [1] - 38:20 2007 [13] - 15:24, 16:1, 32:5, 36:10, 58:1, 58:7, 58:10, 58:20, 62:10, 62:12, 63:2, 63:12, 64:4 2010 [28] - 3:7, 6:4, 6:14, 6:16, 6:25, 15:23, 30:12, 32:5, 36:10, 37:2, 42:22, 43:7, 43:14, 44:7, 44:9, 45:4, 45:12, 47:22, 49:22, 50:9, 50:13, 51:6, 53:1, 53:9, 56:18, 84:12, 96:12, 97:3 2019 [9] - 7:13, 7:15, 7:17, 7:22, 15:12, 16:6, 18:21, 28:7, 37:5 2023 [11] - 3:8, 58:14, 59:12, 59:19, 60:2, 60:4, 61:8, 61:9, 61:24, 61:25, 63:5 2024 [5] - 1:3, 16:7, 18:14, 71:10, 71:12 211 [1] - 37:20 212 [8] - 37:22, 37:23, 37:24, 49:16, 55:17, 56:10, 56:14, 97:12 22 [17] - 9:12, 9:19, 20:11, 20:12, 25:5, 25:9, 42:25, 48:13, 48:17, 48:22, 48:24, 49:6, 49:7, 49:13, 49:17, 90:4 22,000 [2] - 20:12, 20:13 25 [4] - 72:3, 72:4, 72:20, 73:4 25,440 [2] - 38:1, 49:23 27 [2] - 21:9, 21:17 285-5331 [1] - 1:25 29 [1] - 4:17 3 3 [6] - 6:12, 39:18, 57:1, 76:8, 76:23, 85:23 3.9 [1] - 86:12 30 [1] - 85:21 30,000 [1] - 21:6 32 [1] - 4:2 36 [1] - 86:1 396 [2] - 83:9, 83:19 4 4 [33] - 1:24, 13:1, 13:6, 14:8, 14:11, 14:18, 15:5, 21:4, 21:16, 38:7, 39:19, 46:19, 47:3,

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01/08/2025 12:06:06 PM Page 3 to 3 of 13 28 of 38 sheets 50:21, 54:19, 55:2, 72:2, 72:21, 91:7, 91:14, 91:18, 92:23, 95:10, 95:22, 96:1, 96:2 Board [1] - 2:8 board's [1] - 73:23 boards [1] - 68:10 body [2] - 28:24, 83:5 BOLAND [1] - 2:7 bore [3] - 36:9, 36:25, 37:1 botanist [1] - 16:18 bother [2] - 26:20, 63:15 bottom [3] - 31:25, 33:9, 60:3 Bplocker@ huttshim.com [1] - 2:3 BRAEBRUN [1] - 2:10 break [2] - 84:5, 84:21 breakdown [1] - 90:22 breaks [1] - 83:17 briefly [1] - 16:24 bring [2] - 68:14, 95:24 bringing [2] - 25:13, 73:22 broken [1] - 84:14 BRUCE [1] - 2:10 Bruce [1] - 82:25 Bryan [1] - 4:8 BRYAN [1] - 2:3 build [3] - 78:19, 83:9, 83:10 Building [3] - 33:1, 33:4, 34:8 building [4] - 34:10, 44:9, 78:20, 78:23 bunch [1] - 23:15 bur [6] - 10:9, 10:16, 10:17, 10:20 BY [1] - 2:3 C CAD [1] - 96:18 calculated [3] - 12:17, 37:25, 57:2 calculation [9] - 37:13, 38:16, 47:2, 47:7, 48:21, 49:16, 51:13, 52:4, 56:15 calculations [4] - 48:22, 49:20, 49:21, 57:20 car [1] - 50:25 CARDOZA [3] - 1:13, 50:23, 51:1 cardoza [1] - 50:21 Care [1] - 2:11 care [1] - 27:18 careful [1] - 78:22 carry [1] - 83:20 case [6] - 5:9, 48:9, 54:18, 63:10, 66:13, 66:15 casualty [1] - 36:10 categories [3] - 51:19, 51:24, 81:15 category [2] - 12:23, 88:5 center [5] - 31:24, 34:9, 34:10, 45:8, 69:3 certain [11] - 7:21, 12:12, 37:5, 47:14, 54:11, 64:20, 76:13, 79:2, 82:22, 89:16 certainly [3] - 34:6, 35:23, 87:8 certify [1] - 100:4 CERTIFY [1] - 100:8 Chair [1] - 46:14 Chairman [5] - 1:10, 1:10, 62:18, 67:9, 78:2 CHAIRMAN [65] - 4:1, 4:11, 4:18, 4:23, 5:4, 5:17, 5:20, 20:16, 23:25, 24:4, 24:9, 33:14, 33:20, 33:22, 34:12, 34:18, 35:6, 42:12, 43:12, 43:16, 43:22, 44:1, 44:4, 44:6, 44:11, 44:24, 45:2, 45:9, 45:13, 45:19, 45:21, 46:3, 46:6, 46:11, 46:16, 48:1, 48:7, 48:12, 50:20, 51:2, 53:6, 58:25, 62:24, 72:3, 73:2, 73:8, 73:18, 73:21, 73:25, 74:20, 74:24, 76:19, 81:11, 82:10, 83:13, 83:23, 83:25, 84:4, 91:10, 91:22, 92:2, 92:16, 92:20, 96:20, 99:1 chairman [2] - 67:18, 74:17 challenge [1] - 35:2 challenged [3] - 35:1, 73:10, 73:11 challenging [2] - 73:11, 73:13 chance [8] - 5:15, 5:24, 7:6, 22:7, 23:17, 74:2, 88:8, 88:10 change [6] - 28:6, 31:12, 31:14, 31:20, 57:8, 90:10 changes [1] - 57:9 changing [3] - 25:13, 47:8, 98:20 Chapter [4] - 72:3, 72:4, 72:20, 73:4 characteristic [1] - 79:4 characterization [1] - 87:19 charged [1] - 23:7 chart [2] - 10:15, 52:10 check [2] - 67:10, 74:4 checking [1]