July 16, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 11 MS. McGOVERN: We can't go that far. We can't. First of all -- MR. AFRAN: Simply conveying the request. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Let's see the list first. MR. KLEIN: Can you give us a guess like how long they're going to be? MR. AFRAN: I imagine, if all of those people are here on the 30th with questions from the board and the public, that will be that whole night at least. MR. KLEIN: Plus. MR. AFRAN: Plus probably. I am not suggesting we identify the subject of the meetings, but if you're able to identify when the meeting will be for the next -- MS. McGOVERN: We can't give you other meetings. We have to send out feelers for the board members to see who's got vacations planned in August, holidays in September. MR. AFRAN: I'm conveying the request from my client. He's free to -- MS. McGOVERN: The room gets reserved by other people. MR. PANNULLO: May I please. Please. The practical matter, the same way people are scheduled,

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 12 there are eight plus people we're trying to schedule. I am the one organizing the schedules. A meeting in advance, two meetings in advance. This was a little easier tonight. Now next week is off, the 30th is on. There's no visibly past the next meeting, so one guys out of the country until the 3rd, he'll be back. If we can't get everybody in and finished on the 30th, well, I can anticipate that's plausible, but if that happens, great. If there's another meeting or two dates set for which maybe there's public comment, closing arguments, deliberations. However far out you want to go, doesn't really matter, as long as there's hard dates that if they need to change, because we got everything in we could on the 30th, we didn't finish, people can rearrange ahead of time with visibility. I can't do that without one meeting at a time a week in advance and know, people are out of the country, it's summer. I don't know practically how to do it. So I am just trying to find a way to have visibility. If we are all done we are done. If not, I will know who's around. Some people are coming -- the planners AN hour and a half away, the traffic guys AN hour and a half away, two different directions. In August some people are going to be away. People are away now. It's been hard to slot this all in. I am trying as a practical matter to

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 13 make it possible. So more than one meeting at a time visibility helps that possibility. That's all I ask. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Please send the list. MR. PANNULLO: I can -- we'll send the list. Does that mean the answer won't be known until July 30? CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Send the list and we'll go from there. I will speak to the attorney, Mr. Plocker. MS. MCGOVERN: We will make every effort to do it as far in advance as we can. It's also up to the board members and the board members are all volunteers, they're not being paid to be here. MR. PANNULLO: That's true for us too. MS. MCGOVERN: They have given their time and then some, so we are working with them and working -- and Mr. Afran can tell you, Mr. Plocker, we work well in advance when something gets scheduled we will know that. MR. PANNULLO: I'm trying to do the same thing for everybody. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You send the list, we'll get back with Mr. Afran and give times so we better understand what we need. So that will help us give an answer. MR. PANNULLO: Either way, we need to schedule a date. If we close on the 30th we still need

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 14 to know. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We are sensitive to the issues and we'll work -- MR. PANNULLO: Okay. Thank you Mr. Chairman, I appreciate it. MR. PLOCKER: I do have one request. I look forward to getting the list of all the names and professionals identified. I am mostly interested in the planner and traffic engineer and I would ask if they could bring them on the 30th. MR. AFRAN: That was the plan. Excuse me, I may have to amend what I just said. MR. PANNULLO: You have the fire expert before the traffic guy. MR. AFRAN: Can I take one moment. (Whereupon, a short recess is taken.) CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran, you have the floor. MR. AFRAN: Okay. We are ready to proceed with Mr. Goll. MS. McGOVERN: Can you spell his name. MR. AFRAN: G-O-L-L. Geoffrey is spelled, I want to be careful about this, G-E-O-F-F-R-E-Y. MS. MCGOVERN: E-Y. Okay. MR. AFRAN: Yes.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 15 So objectors are calling Geoffrey Goll and let me allow Mr. Goll to just state his own credentials and I will move him as an expert and I think for convenience he is going to stand here. He is going to present his own report. If I have any supplemental questions I will present those too. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Great. Thank you. Our counsel is going to swear you in. MS. MCGOVERN: Raise your right-hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth. THE WITNESS: I do. MS. McGOVERN: Please state your name for the record. THE WITNESS: Sure. I stated before my name is Geoffrey, it's G-E-O-F-F-R-E-Y. Middle initial M. Last name Goll, G-O-L-L. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You have the floor, sir. THE WITNESS: Sure. Just for my background, I also, I have copies of a report, a short letter report I prepared just to back up my testimony and then also I have a copy of my CV that's here as well for distribution. I think I brought enough, that should be enough for the Planning Board to have a copy of. But for the -- for my background, I'm the --

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 16 I'm currently the president of Princeton Hydro. We're a, an environmental geotechnical engineering firm. I have been, I was actually one of the founding partners back in 1998. We have been in business 27 years. We have 60 people. I graduated from Rutgers University with a bachelor's of science in civil engineering in 1990. I also have a master's degree from University of Wisconsin Madison. Engineer -- master's of engineering management. I -- beginning of my career as far as geotechnical work, I started at GoodKind and O'Dea back in 1990, which is now Dewberry. I worked there for several years. I then worked for Melick-Tully, which is now, I think was recently purchased by GZA. And they were a geotechnical engineering firm and I worked there for several years as well. And then I ended up at a company called Coastal Environmental Services, this is about 1995, '96, where I met my future business partners, who three years later in 1998 we started Princeton Hydro and we've grown to about, like I said, 60 people in that time. We're based right now in Trenton, New Jersey. I'm a licensed professional engineer in the State of New Jersey in good standing as well as ten other jurisdictions, which include also the District of

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 17 Columbia. I've worked on a number of different types of engineering projects and overseen and been responsible and charged, including slopes and building analysis and in Jersey City for example right now I'm the engineer of record for Liberty State Park through the Army Corps of Engineers, one of our clients, and we're working on the geotechnical work there as well as the site development and I've been working on the slope disability there and also a few projects in Jersey City, Atlantic Highlands, which is another area, slightly different geologically, but steep slopes and they actually have their own steep slope ordinance down there. Cement and sands. I worked on those projects as well and so I don't know if that's enough information. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you very much. Board have any questions? So we accept you as a licensed engineer in the State of New Jersey. Go right ahead, sir. MR. AFRAN: Let me just kind of note, I understand you have recently received the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Highlands Coalition, is that correct? THE WITNESS: That's correct.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 18 MR. AFRAN: And that was for -- could you describe what that award was for? THE WITNESS: I was just providing for really on the environmental engineering side of business providing support. We do a lot of ecological restoration system work as well and engineering guidance for non profits and geos in the State of New Jersey. MR. AFRAN: We have the CV which I would propose marking as an objectors exhibit. MS. McGOVERN: Okay. MR. PLOCKER: Can we also have the report marked please and distributed. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Had the report been provided to the Planning Board secretary before this? MR. AFRAN: Did you provide -- THE WITNESS: No, I brought 20 copies of the report and the CV. MS. McGOVERN: Okay. So the next marking I have would be O-16 for the CV. And then O-17 will be the report. What's the date on the report, please? THE WITNESS: It's July 16, 2025. MS. MCGOVERN: Thank you. MR. AFRAN: I will get copies to Jamilet after the hearing tonight.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 19 MS. McGOVERN: No. No, I thought we're getting them now. THE WITNESS: They're here. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: It will be posted on the website tomorrow. THE WITNESS: I will get started. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Go right ahead, sir. A. Thank you very much. So I was tasked, I was contracted by We Care to review the geotechnical slope stability analysis that was recently completed as a supplemental to the January 2025 geotechnical investigation. Just as a little background in terms of what I understand. I've reviewed the application materials, the Langan Geotechnical Engineering report that was recently submitted. I also was in attendance by way of zoom at the last June 30 Planning Board meeting and listened to the testimony of the geotechnical engineer from Langan Engineering as well, so I understand some of the background and some of the testimony there is the basis of my report. Okay. So just as a, when I was listening to the testimony on June 30 there was wasn't a lot of explanation about exactly what occurred and was tested for, but there are four -- basically four cross sections

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 20 that were analyzed for steep slopes on the eastern side of the site, that is in the location of the proposed Building D, which is on the top of the ridge of this project site. The -- so what I'm going to talk to you about tonight is the information provided, the borings, the data. The data that was obtained was relatively credible. However, the analysis, as I will discuss, in my professional opinion was flawed in terms of how they used that data to analyze the site. One of the things I wanted to point out is that the overall, what ended up happening with all these borings that were performed, they used the best data, relatively best data on the project site they found as opposed to looking at all data and using some of the areas of less competent material. The investigation comprised of a number of borings, a total of eight borings on each one -- two on each cross section that was provided in the report. There were also a number of test pits that were excavated down in some cases to refusal to characterize the subsurface of the site. Just to understand what we're talking about, is when you're doing a boring, especially if you try to determine the characteristics of bedrock on the site, what you actually do is what's called -- you first go