October 22 2025, Planning Board Regular Meeting - WEHI Transcript

that's23 why we're going to have them continue to do testing24 during construction to verify that.25 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That would be a condition.1 THE WITNESS: Third point talks about2 comparison of infiltration areas. Infiltration areas is3 the part of the basin where the water actually goes into4 the ground versus maybe like a side grass berm where the5 water doesn't necessarily infiltrate as well. We have6 like a sand bottom basin, that whole areas where the7 waters going to go down into the ground. So Princeton8 Hydro's comment is that the mottle area, which is in the9 stormwater mottle, differs from what the plan shows as10 far as the area for the infiltration. And in this case11 they highlighted three basins, one -- I'm sorry, four12 basins. 1, 8, 9 and 11 where the mottle infiltration13 area was less than the plan infiltration area. Indeed14 that's a discrepancy, however because the mottle area is15 less than what the plan shows it actually appears to be16 more conservative in nature. Whether that was17 intentional, possibly not, it might have been an18 oversight, but regardless it's actually a more19 conservative approach. We do recommend as a condition20 that those be updated to match. But we don't think21 that's going to present a problem because it's more22 conservative than less conservative, but we would like23 to see that updated.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.25 20 THE WITNESS: The fourth comment talks about1 the frequency or quantity of soil testing. The DEP has2 a BMP Manual, you may have heard throughout the3 testimony. It's basically a recommendations on how to4 design and construct stormwater basins. They recommend5 a number of tests based on how big your infiltration6 area is. So if you have a small dry well you might have7 a lot less tests than if you have a 20,000 square foot8 basin. It's based on how big that area is. So9 Princeton Hydro put together a table showing that four10 basins have less tests than what would be required by11 this BMP Manual. Some may say that there's more tests12 provided, but their point is that there's four where13 there's less. Now, this BMP Manual is pretty much a14 guidance document prepared by the DEP. DEP is also the15 party who writes the stormwater regulations for the16 state. So while they have this frequency of tests they17 also say that alternative methods may be used to18 determine how many tests an

also the15 party who writes the stormwater regulations for the16 state. So while they have this frequency of tests they17 also say that alternative methods may be used to18 determine how many tests an applicant can dig and that's19 a little gray, but ultimately this applications been20 presented to the DEP, reviewed and approved by the DEP,21 so because the DEP approved it in essence they22 essentially accepted the number of tests that were23 prepared by the applicant.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Your estimation should25

10/28/2025 12:18:39 PM Page 21 to 24 of 40 6 of 17 sheets 21 there be more testing during building?1 THE WITNESS: During the building?2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes. Or does the BMP3 Manual say there should be more testing during building?4 THE WITNESS: I don't think that a certain.5 Like schedule, as far as how many additional tests. I6 think if they do it during construction, like at least7 one per construction, would be sufficient.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.9 THE WITNESS: But we don't take exception to10 the number of tests to this point.11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Thank you.12 THE WITNESS: The next comment is called,13 Groundwater Mounding. Now this -- what I said before,14 it needs to be at least two feet between the seasonal15 high water table and the bottom of the basin, that's a16 minimum two feet. However, mounding means when the17 water infiltrates down into the ground at your18 infiltration areas, at your basins, it's concentrated19 more directly under the basins. So you might have like20 a plume essentially where the water raises up directly21 under the basin, that's called groundwater mounding.22 The issue with that, you don't want that to mound up23 above the basin, you know, where you now have water24 exposed and taking up some of your void space that was25 22 put together for or attributed to storage for the basin.1 So you want to stay below the basin. So there's three2 areas that they said that groundwater mounding presented3 an issue. Now, this is a very similar thing to the last4 one which is that it's based on the BMP Manual5 recommendations and DEP says that there can be alternate6 methods, so because the DEP has seen this, accepted it,7 approved it, we found that's acceptable as far as how8 it's presented.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: During building you would10 expect another test?11 THE WITNESS: Correct.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.13 THE WITNESS: The next point is Impacts To14 Wetlands. This is kind of short in the fact that my15 office, the board, town, doesn't really have16 jurisdiction over wetlands in the State of New Jersey.17 MR. AFRAN: I'm sorry, could you repeat18 that.19 THE WITNESS: Wetlands are entirely reviewed20 by the State of New Jersey and there's a series of LOI's21 and permits that are all associated with that. So that22 is, as far as I know, already been approved by the DEP,23 so there's really not much of a discussion as far as24 Planning

s a series of LOI's21 and permits that are all associated with that. So that22 is, as far as I know, already been approved by the DEP,23 so there's really not much of a discussion as far as24 Planning Board level. It's accepted by the DEP, the DEP25 23 has jurisdiction.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.2 THE WITNESS: Seventh point, second to last3 one has to do with TC calcs. This is Time Of4 Concentration. This is basically a measurement of how5 much time it takes for a drop of water to hit the ground6 and then travel to it's ultimate destination leaving the7 site. There's different ways to calculate this. Over8 the past few years it's changed at least once or twice9 in the past five years, but ultimately this was approved10 by the DEP, it's their calculation, so because they11 approved it we took no exception to how it's calculated12 by the applicant.13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: It's also a good idea to14 have them test it again during the process?15 THE WITNESS: No, it's actually something16 that you can't calculate it in person. You're talking17 about a drop of water hitting the ground and how long18 that takes.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Just engineering?20 THE WITNESS: Once designed and built you21 never really discuss it at all again.22 And then the last comment has to do with23 sanitary sewer pipe traveling through a porous pavement24 area, and that should be revised and we definitely agree25 24 that that should be fixed on the plans approved, where1 there'd be no sanitary sewer pipes traveling through any2 type of stormwater infiltration area.3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.4 THE WITNESS: Other than that we do have a5 series of comments from our June 13, 2025 review letter,6 this is review letter number 3. It's not just7 stormwater, we had some landscaping and lighting8 comments that need to be addressed later on. We do have9 a series, I think 12 comments.10 MS. McGOVERN: What was the date of that11 review letter, I'm sorry?12 THE WITNESS: June 13, 2025.13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Go right ahead.14 THE WITNESS: Well, these are much more15 minor in nature, but I want to say we did have comments16 on that.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Have they been provided to18 the board?19 THE WITNESS: Yes.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. So we have that21 already.22 MS. McGOVERN: Did you want to highlight23 anything from that report?24 THE WITNESS: The main one that we had here25

7 of 17 sheets Page 25 to 28 of 40 10/28/2025 12:18:39 PM 25 was just that additional testing would be required1 during construction. The rest of it is typos. There2 may be some things jive between the stormwater board and3 the plans and things like that. Fixing detail. Nothing4 that's going to affect the design by any means.5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, Mr. Rizzo.6 Do any members have clarifications?7 Mayor McCartney.8 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Thank you.9 Back on number 1, thank you Mr. Rizzo. On10 the testing of soil during construction. There's the11 construction season, will that effect the accurate water12 table?13 THE WITNESS: It does. So generally the "wet14 season" is January to April. The DEP generally says15 after you do your testing that, those four months that16 that water tables probably a more accurate seasonal high17 water table. Outside of that the DEP recommends that18 you could observe mottling if it's available. So even19 if the testing is done in the future outside of those20 four wet months, it's still okay looking for mottling at21 that point.22 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Okay.23 I remember, I would have to go back through24 my notes, number 4 talking about frequency of the soil25 26 testing. I recall talking about the basins either being1 larger or deeper, right? Was that -- would that be a2 recommendation that would be made or when or how is that3 recommendation made?4 THE WITNESS: Are you asking if they are to5 change or are you recommending they do change?6 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Who's going to determine7 when -- determine if they should be larger or deeper?8 THE WITNESS: So I think at this point we --9 I don't -- we don't really think they need to be changed10 in size. However, additional testing that gets done11 shows that there is less than a two foot separation12 between the seasonal high water table, for some reason13 it shows bad infiltration, right. Or something that14 wouldn't make the design work, we would certainly expect15 that the basins be updated at that time and when they're16 updated additional calculations would certainly be17 supplemented to show that the new size, whether it's18 greater footprint, deeper, whatever it is, it's still19 compliant at that point in time.20 MAYOR McCARTNEY: And that would be21 determined during the construction period?22 THE WITNESS: If it needs to be updated at23 that point. I don't want to suggest it

compliant at that point in time.20 MAYOR McCARTNEY: And that would be21 determined during the construction period?22 THE WITNESS: If it needs to be updated at23 that point. I don't want to suggest it definitely does,24 but if it comes up at that point we would expect the25 27 design to be updated as well to reflect that.1 MAYOR McCARTNEY: The other clarification2 would be on number 5, talking about groundwater mounding3 and that mounding would happen under the basin. How4 would you control that and how would you know?5 THE WITNESS: During construction if you6 have like a sand bottom basin for instance, and you put7 the sand in last, so if you see the water bubbling up8 that would be a good time to, you know, change something9 with the basin to make sure it's going to work. Other10 than that, I mean, I guess it's really based on11 observation, if you see the water coming up.12 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Rising?13 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. The basins are going14 to be one of the first things to get done on-site.15 They're not finalized by any means but carving them out16 and making sure the water has a place to go during17 construction would be done at the preliminary stages of18 construction. This project would obviously have a long19 time line, it's not a quick construction project. So20 over that course of time inspectors would be, you know,21 evaluating the basin to make sure it's not holding22 water. That's the most obvious thing with a basin, is23 it holding water or not. And if it is, I think24 everybody wants to pause and figure out why and what25 28 could be.1 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Thank you very much.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Klein.3 MR. KLEIN: No questions.4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Vice Chair Guarino.5 VICE CHAIRMAN GUARINO: No questions at this6 time.7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Alper.8 MR. ALPER: Briefly. You were saying the9 basins are inspected when they're being built, who does10 those inspections? Is it the contractor or is it like a11 town official, the planning inspector?12 THE WITNESS: I expect the town would have an13 inspector.14 MR. ALPER: Is that something conditioned or15 sort of an automatic part of the construction process?16 THE WITNESS: I believe the town has17 inspectors.18 MR. ALPER: You were saying if we put sand19 in the waters bubbling up. From the towns side --20 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't expect the applicant21 or the contractor to be the one inspecting their

ctors.18 MR. ALPER: You were saying if we put sand19 in the waters bubbling up. From the towns side --20 THE WITNESS: I wouldn't expect the applicant21 or the contractor to be the one inspecting their own22 project. It would be someone representing the Township.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.24 Does it require whether CME or the township25

10/28/2025 12:18:39 PM Page 29 to 32 of 40 8 of 17 sheets 29 engineer would be inspected by someone.1 MR. ALPER: Other thing I want to clarify2 for the public, you know, when we talk about conditions3 and we talk about construction, there's no assumption4 there's going to be an approval. That's the process5 with any application, that we start discussing things6 that would be smart conditions to have as we reach those7 points of discussion. So eventually when the board8 makes a decision, should it be approved, all those9 conditions are already written down.10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Right. We are going to11 review, for the public, we are going to review at the12 time the board finally gets to discuss this, all the13 conditions. So todays conditions and the previous and14 things going forward, we will go over each one and each15 board member will have the opportunity to discuss it and16 then we'll have our experts pros and cons.17 MR. ALPER: We have had conditions come up18 while in the meeting, so I just want to make sure19 everyone understands.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.21 Mr. Cardoza.22 MR. CARDOZA: No questions.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Counsel Person Scarpa.24 COUNCILWOMAN SCARPA: Yeah, I have a similar25 30 question about the accountability and who would be1 inspecting. So am I understanding that it's either one2 of our Township employees that we actually hold everyone3 accountable for, including --4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Well, each subject, the5 building department would takeover what they're supposed6 to do. Our township engineer or CME will do it but7 somebody, whoever's required to do inspections would do8 the inspection. And that would be documented in the9 final application conditions and we have our planner and10 our engineer to guide us.11 COUNCILWOMAN SCARPA: I have one other12 concern. You talked about this being an area that's a13 gray area. That's kind of a concern of mine, which is14 that a lot of the, you said DEP approved it. You know,15 and that's why we're okay. Just what are those gray16 areas and what are the problems or fixes?17 THE WITNESS: I truthfully don't remember18 what topic was --19 COUNCILWOMAN SCARPA: It was on the basins.20 You said, if there less than what the manual suggests,21 alternative methods would be --22 MR. KLEIN: Number 4.23 COUNCILWOMAN SCARPA: It was number 4.24 Alternative methods would be used, but that's a gray25 31 area,

e less than what the manual suggests,21 alternative methods would be --22 MR. KLEIN: Number 4.23 COUNCILWOMAN SCARPA: It was number 4.24 Alternative methods would be used, but that's a gray25 31 area, that scares me when there's a gray area.1 THE WITNESS: The, I guess I will talk to2 number 4. But generally with stormwater it's a lot of3 -- it's gray essentially. I mean, we're doing design4 calculations based on production and quantity of peak5 flow and you never observe that with an eye in the6 field, right. Once it's built it's real dependant on7 the design. Number 4, that's the number of tests, I8 guess in the context of gray being for this. But this9 is number of tests.10 COUNCILWOMAN SCARPA: You said alternative11 methods are used, that's a gray area.12 THE WITNESS: You're right.13 COUNCILWOMAN SCARPA: What are alternative14 methods? Who determines what they are.15 THE WITNESS: The DEP puts together their BMP16 Manual, that's recommendations to the whole state how to17 build and design stormwater basins. So they talk about18 that you can have alternative stormwater measures,19 removal rates, calculation methods may be utilized,20 subject to any limitations specified in this chapter,21 provided the design engineer demonstrates to the review22 agency in accordance with 7:8, that the proposed measure23 and it's design will contribute to achievement of the24 design and performance standards established by this25 32 chapter. So they don't lay out the framework of what an1 alternative method is. You essentially submit your2 plans, they review it, they're the ones that put3 together the stormwater regulations, the BMP Manual and4 then they review this application. When I said gray, I5 meant that it's not outlined as far as an alternative6 method to do a number of tests, it's based on how, I7 guess, their review of it and if it's appropriate.8 COUNCILWOMAN SCARPA: Okay. Thanks.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: All done?10 COUNCILWOMAN SCARPA: Thank you.11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.12 Mr. Wilkes.13 MR. WILKES: No questions.14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Thank you.15 Okay, so that is it, as far as this evening.16 Thank you.17 So what's going to happen, our next meeting18 the objector will provide their last expert to give,19 however long it takes for him or her to give their20 testimony. And after that we'll have public comment.21 Public comment will be in person. After, the board

will provide their last expert to give,19 however long it takes for him or her to give their20 testimony. And after that we'll have public comment.21 Public comment will be in person. After, the board will22 discuss, we have another -- another one of our experts23 testify. We have two more testifying for the board and24 then we will have public comment. We'll start public25