July 30, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

m 2 underground, from groundwater flow, as well as 3 surface flow. 4 MR. AFRAN: Have you made a study of 5 what losses from surface flow will be experienced by 6 the wetlands after construction? 7 MR. ANDERSON: Not by the wetlands per 8 se, but by the site itself. The groundwater 9 recharge to, uh, to this entire site equals or 10 exceeds what is recharged to the ground under 11 current conditions, so there will be ample water 12 recharging these areas after we're done. 13 MR. AFRAN: Have you made a study as 14 to what percent of surface water flow to the 15 wetlands will be lost after construction? 16 MR. ANDERSON: I haven't looked at it 17 in that regard, no. 18 MR. AFRAN: Okay, thank you. That's 19 all I was asking. 20 Your application to DEP was pulled the 21 first time, wasn't it? 22 MR. PLOCKER: I'm going to object to 23 this regard. This is about a pending DEP 24 application -- 25 MR. AFRAN: No, it's not. Page 129 1 MR. PLOCKER: -- and that's outside 2 the purview of this Board. 3 MR. AFRAN: It's not and I'll explain 4 why. It relates directly to questions many of the 5 Board members made with respect to the 2021 6 standards versus the new standards. 7 MS. McGOVERN: So -- I didn't hear the 8 first part of the question. Ask the question again. 9 MR. AFRAN: It relates to the issue 10 Board members raised as to whether the '21 standards 11 apply and whether possibly the later standards 12 apply. 13 MS. McGOVERN: And the testimony was 14 that the '21 standards applied, so -- 15 MR. AFRAN: I know what the testimony 16 was but my question -- 17 MS. McGOVERN: So you're asking what 18 are the standards versus -- 19 MR. AFRAN: No, that's not my 20 question. 21 MS. McGOVERN: What is it? 22 MR. AFRAN: I simply asked "Did you 23 pull your DEP application at any point?" 24 MS. McGOVERN: "Did you pull your DEP 25 application at any point?"

34 (Pages 130 to 133) Page 130 1 MR. AFRAN: And the answer was "yes" 2 and I was going to go further. 3 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Into the mic, 4 Diana, into the mic. 5 MS. McGOVERN: I'm sorry. Was the 6 answer yes, is that what the answer was that you 7 pulled your DEP application? 8 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, the answer was 9 yes. 10 MS. McGOVERN: And so your next 11 question was? 12 MR. AFRAN: When did you re-file? 13 MR. ANDERSON: Just a few weeks ago; I 14 don't have the exact date. 15 MR. AFRAN: So you're no longer under 16 the 2021 rules because you pulled your application 17 and you re-filed it in 2024; isn't that correct? 18 MR. ANDERSON: That's not the case. 19 We have verified -- 20 MS. McGOVERN: This is not the purview 21 of the Planning Board. I understand the point 22 you're making; however, the Planning Board can't 23 rule on something like that. 24 MR. AFRAN: Well, I'm not asking the 25 Board to rule on it, but Board members had many Page 131 1 questions concerning what standards would apply and 2 it was raised by Board members and now I'm trying to 3 identify the fact that there's a significant 4 question different from what was stated earlier. 5 MS. McGOVERN: Whatever the standard 6 is, the legal -- the legal timing -- I understand 7 what you're saying, is whatever time the old law was 8 in effect versus what would be applicable. We're 9 not -- we're not here to decide that at this point. 10 MR. AFRAN: Well, with respect -- with 11 great respect, though, Board members asked 12 specifically -- 13 MS. McGOVERN: I understand. 14 MR. AFRAN: -- about the hundred-year 15 storm and what standards apply for that analysis. 16 Under the new regulations is a requirement of future 17 storm trend analysis. That was not done. 18 MS. McGOVERN: Okay. 19 MR. AFRAN: And so that's the next 20 question I have. 21 MS. McGOVERN: Okay, so -- 22 MR. PLOCKER: Just for the record, Ms. 23 McGovern and Chairman Bagoff -- 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker, go 25 right ahead. Page 132 1 MR. PLOCKER: Okay. Thank you very 2 much, Mr. Chairman. It's clear and it's been 3 stipulated to that there are old stormwater 4 regulations and there are new ones. Mr. -- 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker, could 6 you speak up a little bit? 7 MR. PLOCKER: Mr. -- 8 (Public outburst) 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, okay, okay. 10 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you. It was made 11 clear by Mr. Anderson and everybody here that

ould 6 you speak up a little bit? 7 MR. PLOCKER: Mr. -- 8 (Public outburst) 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, okay, okay. 10 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you. It was made 11 clear by Mr. Anderson and everybody here that there 12 are new stormwater regulations and there are old 13 ones, to -- 14 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: Still can't 15 hear you. 16 MR. PLOCKER: -- refer to it very 17 colloquially. Mr. Anderson testified that despite 18 the re-filing or amendment or whatever we want to 19 call it, a few weeks ago, he believes that the old 20 regulations still apply. As Ms. McGovern said, that 21 is a DEP issue, they're in Trenton and I'm sure they 22 are more than happy to deal with you on that 23 information, but Mr. Anderson's testimony was his 24 testimony. 25 MR. AFRAN: Well, the question is very Page 133 1 simple: If it was pulled and then re-filed under 2 the new rules, as an engineer, isn't it fair that 3 you can answer the question whether or not it's 4 governed under the new rules, not the old one? 5 MR. ANDERSON: We have a letter from 6 the DEP saying the old rules govern. 7 MR. AFRAN: What's the date of that 8 letter? 9 MR. ANDERSON: I don't have the letter 10 in front of me, I can't tell you that. 11 MR. AFRAN: Was that issued before you 12 pulled it or after? 13 MR. ANDERSON: After. 14 MR. AFRAN: Can you supply that 15 letter? 16 MR. ANDERSON: I -- 17 MR. PLOCKER: It would be public 18 record, I don't -- I don't know if we have it here 19 tonight, I don't know, but it's definitely -- 20 MR. AFRAN: I didn't mean tonight. 21 MR. PLOCKER: -- part of a public 22 record. 23 MR. AFRAN: Well, it relates to 24 questions -- 25 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran, at the

35 (Pages 134 to 137) Page 134 1 end of the day, they're going to have to apply to 2 whatever the DEP, whether it's 2021 or '24, whatever 3 the rules are, they're going to have to apply, so 4 the Board, whether it has that information or not at 5 this moment, we will condition the application on 6 applying to the appropriate DEP standards -- 7 MR. AFRAN: I accept that. 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: -- and they will 9 then have to, if it's the new standards, provide new 10 studies to the township. 11 MR. AFRAN: I -- I have gone as far as 12 I need to on the issue, so I respectfully... 13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, let's move on. 14 Mr. Afran, it is a little after 9. If it's okay, 15 I'd like to take a ten minute bio break. 16 MR. AFRAN: And that'll give me time 17 to wrap up after, yes. I'll be able to consult my 18 notes anyway. Thank you. 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Ladies 20 and gentlemen, there's two bathrooms out here. Take 21 your time, sit here, relax. Ten minutes, we'll be 22 back on the record. Thank you very much. 23 (Recess taken) 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We are back live. 25 9:20, back on the record. Thank you ladies and Page 135 1 gentlemen. Mr. Afran, you have the floor. 2 MR. AFRAN: Mr. Chairman, I am pleased 3 to say think I've concluded my cross-examination. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, sir. 5 MR. AFRAN: I thank Mr. Anderson and 6 Mr. Plocker. 7 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Now, 9 ladies and gentlemen, the next part of the meeting 10 is the public may come up and ask questions. We 11 would -- and I will ask this: If somebody comes up 12 and asks a question, everybody else doesn't have to 13 ask the same question. Please listen to the 14 answers. The goal is that the Board hears the 15 questions and then gets the answers from the 16 applicant. Okay? So one at a time, raise your 17 hand, be identified. Sir, right in -- I'm sorry, 18 Mr. Afran? 19 MR. AFRAN: Yeah. I just wanted to 20 note that my clients, Board members, we've discussed 21 this with Ms. McGovern, are not going to be asking 22 direct questions of the witnesses, but if they have 23 anything to say, they'll reserve that for public 24 comment. So if any of my client Board members are 25 listening, please don't come up for questions at Page 136 1 this time. 2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, sir. 3 MR. CARDOZA: Mr. Chairman. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry, Mr. 5 Cardoza has a

members are 25 listening, please don't come up for questions at Page 136 1 this time. 2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, sir. 3 MR. CARDOZA: Mr. Chairman. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry, Mr. 5 Cardoza has a question, one more member of the 6 Board. 7 MR. CARDOZA: I'd just like to make 8 sure we clarify the distinction between public 9 questions and comments and that they'll have the 10 opportunity to comment later. 11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes. Good question. 12 So there's two parts of the application in the 13 public venue. The public can come up and, as an 14 expert testifies under oath, you may ask questions 15 about their testimony directly. You may ask a 16 question that seems to be slightly off of their 17 testimony, it will be up to them and their attorney 18 to decide if they have the expertise and/or 19 knowledge to answer that question. If the answer is 20 no, we'll ask you to move on. Okay? So basically, 21 you're going to ask your question, if, when, why, 22 what, how, where. If you start with testimony, I'm 23 going to ask you to stop, rethink -- this is like 24 jeopardy. So I'm going to ask you to stop and 25 rethink the question and then propose it as a Page 137 1 question because that's the way the process works. 2 We want you to ask questions that we'll provide 3 answers that make sense to you, or if you have other 4 questions, we will get those out also. We're going 5 to give you a three-minute time limit and then 6 people can go again if there's enough time or people 7 don't ask questions. 8 Comments are at the end of the 9 application. You may -- you may say what is on your 10 mind about the project, whatever is on your mind, 11 but the question period which we have now is to ask 12 a question of the person who's just testified and 13 then that person will answer or the attorney will 14 say they don't have the understanding, knowledge or 15 expertise to answer that question, it's not in their 16 testimony, and somebody else may answer that 17 question. Okay? So under those rules, we're going 18 to ask you to come up, we're going to do this in a 19 civil manner. Sir in the middle, will you come up, 20 please? You're up. State your name for the record, 21 please. 22 MR. CASTANO: Chris Castano. 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, sir. 24 MR. CASTANO: Can you hear it all 25 right?

36 (Pages 138 to 141) Page 138 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, sir. 2 MR. PLOCKER: Could he just spell his 3 last name, please? 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Could you spell your 5 last name? 6 MR. CASTANO: I can, since I was a 7 kid. C-A-S-T-A-N-O. 8 So Mr. Anderson, you testified that 9 there would be no impact on any of the neighboring 10 towns in terms of the water runoff; is that -- is 11 that correct? 12 MR. ANDERSON: That is correct. 13 MR. CASTANO: But I believe you also 14 testified that you would be releasing water into the 15 Canoe Brook. 16 MR. ANDERSON: That's correct. 17 MR. CASTANO: And do you know where 18 the Canoe Brook flows? 19 MR. ANDERSON: The point of analysis 20 that we use is at the property line where Canoe 21 Brook leaves, so we have a reduction in the rate of 22 discharge at our point of analysis and, therefore, 23 there's less water in the streams for the hundred- 24 year storm, as I indicated before, 80 percent of the 25 rate that -- of the pre-development rate, so it's Page 139 1 not going to go overtop the banks of the stream 2 because of the excess of flows from this project 3 downstream from our point of analysis. 4 MR. CASTANO: All right, and did I 5 understand that you said that there would be filters 6 put in place for water that's running off from all 7 of the hardscape even if it's porous? You said 8 they're going to be released into Canoe Brook? 9 MR. ANDERSON: For -- yes, for that 10 system itself being a large-scale detention basin, 11 there is filtration systems that are approved by the 12 DEP for 80 percent suspended solid removal that 13 filters the water prior to discharging it through 14 the drainage system down to the basin. 15 MR. CASTANO: And it filters out all 16 contaminants like oils and other kinds of 17 discharges? 18 MR. ANDERSON: 80 percent of all 19 suspended solids is removed from the stormwater. 20 MR. CASTANO: "Suspended solids" 21 meaning, like, leaves and things like that but not 22 necessarily -- 23 MR. ANDERSON: It gets oils and other 24 things too, it meets the DEP standard. 25 MR. CASTANO: And how long -- do you Page 140 1 have in your plans a period of time in which you're 2 going to maintain that filter system? 3 MR. ANDERSON: It has to come with an 4 annual maintenance plan that is filed with the 5 county. This is fairly standard operations for 6 this. So, upon approval, we file a maintenance plan 7 for

em? 3 MR. ANDERSON: It has to come with an 4 annual maintenance plan that is filed with the 5 county. This is fairly standard operations for 6 this. So, upon approval, we file a maintenance plan 7 for every stormwater management device on the 8 property and then it runs with the land and the 9 ownership of the land, they're obligated to maintain 10 it every year. 11 MR. CASTANO: So "they" being the 12 owners of the condo association. 13 MR. ANDERSON: Whoever is the owner at 14 that time, correct. 15 MR. CASTANO: Did you speak with 16 Caldwell, North Caldwell, Essex Fells, Roseland, 17 Livingston, Millburn, Short Hills and Summit, which 18 all get their water from wells that are fed into it 19 by the Canoe Brook and part of that aquifer, before 20 any of this testing? 21 MR. ANDERSON: I did not. 22 MR. CASTANO: Okay. Thank you. 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, sir. 24 Yes, sir, come right up. State your name and spell 25 your last name for the record, please. Page 141 1 MR. COYNE: Sure. Is it on? Kevin 2 Coyne, C-O-Y-N-E. 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, sir. 4 MR. COYNE: Thank you for having me, 5 thank you for the time. 6 Just if I could refer to -- are you 7 ready or... Building D, which I believe is the most 8 eastern-facing building -- 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Fagan, can you 10 put up the map again, please? 11 MR. COYNE: On one side, there's a 12 wall and then on the other side, it's right against 13 the ridgeline. Is it standard practice for an 14 emergency vehicle to get around all parts of a 15 vehicle -- all parts of a building in case one side 16 of a facade is engulfed in flames where you would 17 need to access the other side? 18 MR. ANDERSON: That depends on how the 19 fire chief is going to fight the fire. It will be a 20 sprinklered building, it may not need to be accessed 21 from all four sides, but there is level areas that 22 they can drive around, they certainly can drag a 23 host around to the opposite side of the building. 24 MR. COYNE: Have you done, through 25 your fire truck software that you referenced

37 (Pages 142 to 145) Page 142 1 earlier, have you done that test to see if your fire 2 truck can, in fact, proceed up the incline and go in 3 the back? 4 MR. ANDERSON: It's not going to go up 5 the incline that is to the east of that building. 6 It's just -- it's more of dragging hoses and relying 7 -- thank you. It's more of dragging hoses and 8 relying on -- from this point here, around -- like 9 to this point and going from this parking lot here 10 up and around here, dragging hoses to the back of 11 the building if they need to fight from that side. 12 MR. COYNE: And how many stories is 13 that building? 14 MR. ANDERSON: Four stories over the 15 parking story. 16 MR. COYNE: And is it common practice 17 for a town to have a ladder system that can service 18 the height of those systems in that town in case 19 people need to evacuate from a window? 20 MR. ANDERSON: It is; I believe that 21 the height of the building was thought out prior -- 22 as part of the settlement agreement based on the 23 firefighting equipment that was available -- 24 MR. COYNE: So that ladder should be 25 able to go in the back if need be for evacuation; is Page 143 1 that fair? 2 MR. ANDERSON: Or to the front. I'm 3 not -- this is a question we will meet with the fire 4 chief and ask him how he will fight this fire. 5 MR. COYNE: Thank you. Just turning 6 to one other topic of the water runoff. Can you 7 define what hundred-year water is, maybe in terms of 8 inches per year? 9 MR. ANDERSON: So it's basically a 10 storm that happens on a probability of once every 11 100 years -- 12 MR. COYNE: Um-hum. 13 MR. ANDERSON: -- for each area of the 14 country, that rainfall intensity varies. In this 15 area of the country, it's -- I think for this site, 16 it's probably around eight-and-a-half inches of 17 rainfall over a 24-hour period. 18 MR. COYNE: And how many have we had 19 in the last 10 or 20 years? 20 MR. ANDERSON: I'm not aware of the 21 exact number. 22 MR. COYNE: When you -- you've used 23 the term "average conditions," I believe, in some of 24 your reference to rainfall. When you do your 25 studies in terms of the capacity of your runoff Page 144 1 system, are you using an average, let's say a 50 2 percentile, so not the hundred-year average or -- 3 you said you're using 80 percent of the hundred-year 4 average; is that correct? 5 MR. ANDERSON: No, I think you 6 misunderstood

e, let's say a 50 2 percentile, so not the hundred-year average or -- 3 you said you're using 80 percent of the hundred-year 4 average; is that correct? 5 MR. ANDERSON: No, I think you 6 misunderstood that -- that testimony. So if we have 7 a certain volume of water coming in during the 8 existing conditions leaving the site, say going to 9 the Canoe Brook, as you were asking, that volume 10 times .8 is what I'm permitted to put back in there 11 later -- 12 MR. COYNE: Okay. 13 MR. ANDERSON: -- so it's 80 percent 14 of what the total discharge rate would be at that 15 discharge point. So I have to reduce the flow based 16 on, it's not 80 percent of the water, it's 80 17 percent of the total discharge rate. Also, they 18 make you do -- there's standards also where you 19 could assume that, say, the forest is woods in good 20 condition, and that is not the case here but we have 21 to -- 22 MR. COYNE: Okay. 23 MR. ANDERSON: -- assume that anyway. 24 In terms of -- 25 MR. COYNE: Just for sake of time, I'm Page 145 1 just going to squeeze one more question in just so I 2 have the liberty to finish. 3 MR. ANDERSON: Go right ahead. 4 MR. COYNE: Or you want to finish 5 your testimony? 6 MR. ANDERSON: No, no, you're running 7 out of time so go ahead. 8 MR. COYNE: So just if you could 9 explain to us, the way any system works, I know it's 10 like New York's runoff system like this where there 11 is overflow where overflow gates open and allow for 12 runoff because a system can't handle it. If we get 13 rainfall that is in excess of the capacity of your 14 system, where does that water go? 15 MR. ANDERSON: The water goes through 16 the detention basins and there's overflows in the 17 detention basins that discharge into the discharge 18 pipes that go out to the -- say, for example, we 19 have a discharge pipe at this point here that goes 20 into the culvert, we have one of the discharges here 21 and one of the discharges here. We also have one 22 here and here (indicating). 23 MR. COYNE: And that discharge is 24 untreated, correct? 25 MR. ANDERSON: Well, that discharge is

38 (Pages 146 to 149) Page 146 1 -- the treatment is required for the two-year storm 2 or the water quality storm, not for the 100-year 3 storm, so the water quality storm is 1.25 inches of 4 rainfall, not the eight and a half or more that you 5 would see on a hundred-year storm. So after the 6 first flush is through, the water quality 7 requirement is -- it's gone. You would have a 8 controlled discharge through an outlet structure and 9 a pipe to a stabilized discharge point. 10 MR. COYNE: Okay. Thank you for your 11 time. 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Yes, 13 sir, with your hand raised, stand -- come up. 14 MR. FAGAN: Mr. Chairman, excuse me, 15 do you want me to keep the map up or do you want me 16 to put the timer up? 17 MR. MISARTI: Please keep it up. 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Please keep it up. 19 MR. FAGAN: Okay. I will put the 20 timer on stopwatch. 21 MR. MISARTI: I'm sorry, I didn't mean 22 to answer for him. 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Go ahead. 24 MR. MISARTI: I have questions about 25 this, though. Page 147 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. 2 MR. MISARTI: You have the dark green 3 areas, right? Which are the fenced-in -- 4 MR. ANDERSON: I think they want you 5 to give the name. 6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Sir -- 7 MR. MISARTI: Oh. 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Sir, sir, excuse me. 9 Could we have your name, please, and spell your last 10 name? 11 MR. MISARTI: I'm sorry. 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That's okay. 13 MR. MISARTI: Misarti, M-I-S-A-R-T-I. 14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 15 MR. MISARTI: You're welcome. I live 16 on Mayfair Drive right near it, so my question is -- 17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Talk into the 18 microphone, sir, so we can hear you. 19 MR. MISARTI: Okay. 20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 21 MR. MISARTI: Can I hold it? Hello? 22 Hello? So the dark green inside the deer fence, 23 then the light -- the medium green, I have a 24 question about. And then the light green, the 25 yellowish green, you said is like the trees that are Page 148 1 not -- are going to be cut down. Is that -- is that 2 correct? You said, like, the area of disturbance? 3 MR. ANDERSON: So the area that is 4 dark, as you indicated, is the area where there's 5 going to be deer fencing where you will have 6 undergrowth -- understory regrowth over time. The 7 area that is the medium green is areas that is not 8 clear, that's a natural woodland that you see today 9 without any deer fence protection and you'll 10 probably