August 14, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

30 (Pages 114 to 117)30 (Pages 114 to 117) Page 114 1 comparison and a metric for calculation and it 2 worked fine, and if we use larger containers, then 3 that would even work even better. So there's -- 4 when you consider I didn't even include that there's 5 storage inside the units, which there is, I 6 considered only the trash room on each floor and the 7 main trash room at the -- at the basement -- at the 8 garage level. 9 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Okay. I will 10 still have my concerns about that because I just 11 feel like one room -- 12 MR. APPEL: But we did -- 13 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: -- there's so 14 many. 15 MR. APPEL: -- that. 16 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Okay. I 17 guess to add, just to complete out sanitation, 18 looking at, you know, forward, because we're looking 19 at buildings being built forward, has composting 20 ever been thought of in these units as well? I 21 mean, we're doing -- a lot more people are doing 22 composting and a couple of years from now, we'll do 23 even more. 24 MR. APPEL: That's a good question. I 25 can opine on whether there -- that can be Page 116 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you very much. 2 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: It was more 3 on the affordable housing side. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 5 Come right up, sir, and state your name 6 and spell your last name for the record, please. 7 MR. LATERZA: Patrick Laterza, 8 L-A-T-E-R-Z-A, I live in Verona. I've got a few 9 questions because we're going over two days of 10 testimony here. 11 I just want to -- I know it's been -- 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Sir, can you speak a 13 little louder? I'm sorry. 14 MR. LATERZA: Can I take this off, is 15 it all right? 16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yeah, sure. 17 MR. LATERZA: I know it's been alluded 18 to but I just want to confirm, are all of the 19 affordable housing units on the smaller side of the 20 building? Of the buildings? 21 MR. APPEL: They're on the shorter 22 side of the corridors, yes. 23 MR. LATERZA: Okay, so they're 24 segregated to the shorter side of the building, 25 every one of them. Page 115 1 incorporated right now, but it is, you know, we will 2 -- we will look into that. 3 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Okay. And I 4 guess my other question was to follow up on the 5 power grid. So I don't know if that's a question 6 for you or not. 7 MR. APPEL: I -- I -- I don't know 8 what I could answer; that could be way out of -- 9 MS.

other question was to follow up on the 5 power grid. So I don't know if that's a question 6 for you or not. 7 MR. APPEL: I -- I -- I don't know 8 what I could answer; that could be way out of -- 9 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Okay. Should 10 I hold that for someone else or... 11 MS. McGOVERN: What was the question? 12 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: So the 13 question is, we've, you know, I mean, we are seeing 14 so many more power outages coming out. I'd like to 15 understand where the power line's going to be 16 sitting for this, what power grids are they going 17 into? Because we have two in our neighborhood and, 18 trust me, they get impacted and that, you know, and 19 ours is a newer neighborhood, to begin with, so... 20 MR. APPEL: The only thing I could 21 mention is that the proposed distribution is 22 underground for the power. 23 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Okay. I have 24 some other stuff but I'll hold them for public 25 comment. Page 117 1 MR. APPEL: Along with market units as 2 well. 3 MR. LATERZA: Okay. I know you gave 4 us a range in your testimony last time of the sizes 5 of units. Have -- have you calculated the average 6 size of the units? Since you have some of the 7 market units that are on the smaller side and most 8 are on the larger side, that would skew those 9 numbers. 10 MR. APPEL: I have not done various 11 calculations, the only thing I could tell you is 12 that when you look at -- there are market one- 13 bedroom units that are in the similar location and 14 with the exception of the utility closet, they are 15 the identical dimension as the market. 16 MR. LATERZA: Sure, but there's more 17 one-bedroom units that are market rate on the larger 18 side. 19 MR. APPEL: There are -- there are 20 other larger units, but there are smaller and very 21 similar size -- 22 MR. LATERZA: But there are fewer, so 23 your average size will be skewed larger by the 24 market units because there's more market units on 25 the larger side of the building.

31 (Pages 118 to 121)31 (Pages 118 to 121) Page 118 1 MR. APPEL: I -- I can't give you 2 those calculations. 3 MR. LATERZA: Okay. But you're an 4 architect, you know math. Right? 5 MR. APPEL: Excuse me? 6 MR. LATERZA: You're an architect, you 7 know math. 8 MR. APPEL: Yes. 9 MR. LATERZA: So sounds about right, 10 right? 11 MR. APPEL: I'm not even -- until you 12 provide an average or a weighted average with the 13 number of units and stuff like that, I couldn't even 14 tell you, you know, how much it's... (indiscernible) 15 MR. LATERZA: Okay. Could I ask the 16 Board if that would be an important number they 17 would want to know about the affordable housing, how 18 much smaller they're going to be on an average than 19 the larger ones, than the market rate? 20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: There's a minimum 21 that the law sets for units, so they're going to 22 have to comply with the law. 23 MR. LATERZA: Sure, but you're making 24 an assumption, you guys are making a decision based 25 off of the importance of these affordable housing Page 120 1 there's been multiple references when we're talking 2 about fire safety about those areas of refuge, but 3 they haven't been planned out at all. 4 MR. APPEL: Well, it's -- this is a -- 5 this is a concept level of drawings right now; all 6 of that is looked at very carefully code-wise when 7 the construction documents are put together. 8 MR. LATERZA: I think there was 9 concern about fire, but areas of refuge, if you're 10 saying conceptually they're going to be there, 11 you're saying they could hold anywhere from one 12 person, just in case, to a family of four? 13 MR. APPEL: It is going to meet or 14 exceed the code. 15 MR. LATERZA: Okay. 16 MR. APPEL: In every respect. 17 MR. LATERZA: I know this wasn't your 18 testimony but it was brought up during the last -- 19 during this portion so I'm going to bring it up. 20 Mr. Hoffman testified that you could get a credit if 21 you didn't use your parking spot, but people weren't 22 paying for parking spots. I was just curious how 23 that's different. So if you chose -- and I know, 24 once again, this wasn't your thing, but if you chose 25 not to use your parking spot and instead parked on Page 119 1 units and how important they're going to be, how 2 they're going to be utilized, so I think that would 3 be an important factor for you guys, but I don't 4 want to be making commentary.

on Page 119 1 units and how important they're going to be, how 2 they're going to be utilized, so I think that would 3 be an important factor for you guys, but I don't 4 want to be making commentary. I'm sorry, I just 5 wanted to ask that question. 6 Has anything been done -- since you're 7 cutting down so many trees, has anything been done 8 to mitigate heat island effect for the buildings? 9 MR. APPEL: There are a number of 10 green provisions in the ordinance and we are going 11 to meet the ordinance. I can't give you 12 calculations or additional information about 13 providing numbers or other metrics of that. 14 MR. LATERZA: Okay. Approximately, 15 how many people could fit in the fire areas of 16 refuge? 17 MR. APPEL: The fire areas of refuge 18 have not yet been designed, we're just going to 19 comply with the code. I don't have an answer with 20 the exact number and whether we're going to be using 21 a -- whether we're going to put an area of refuge 22 that would be separating the building into two 23 pieces or if it will be contiguous and connected to 24 one of the stair towers. 25 MR. LATERZA: Okay, so it -- because Page 121 1 the street because you could get a credit for it, 2 how is that any different than paying for parking 3 spots? 4 MR. APPEL: Well, there's no -- you're 5 talking about a surface spot or a street spot 6 because I don't know that there is street parking, 7 there is surface parking that -- 8 MR. LATERZA: Yes, surface parking or 9 utilizing any other parts of the street that aren't 10 necessarily parking areas and they're walking to 11 their house. 12 MR. APPEL: Operationally, I don't -- 13 I don't know how that would work in a different... 14 (indiscernible) 15 MR. LATERZA: And you were just saying 16 about how building management would handle misuse of 17 visitor parking spots. Has anyone had any sort of 18 plan on how that misuse would be managed? I know, 19 once again, this is not going to be your space but 20 you mentioned it, so... 21 MR. APPEL: This is operational. I 22 design buildings but I -- you know, it's a good 23 question but these are operational, you know, issues 24 and they want to make it right. They don't want it 25 to function poorly.

32 (Pages 122 to 125)32 (Pages 122 to 125) Page 122 1 MR. LATERZA: Okay. Those are my 2 questions. Thank you, guys. 3 MR. APPEL: Thank you. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 5 Please step up, sir, state your name 6 and spell your last name for the record, please. 7 MR. ERSHOW: My name is Donald Ershow, 8 E-R-S-H-O-W. 9 Mr. Appel, you had testified the last 10 time that you have done many projects like this and 11 so I have a question. Regarding -- with a project 12 like this, your anticipation of sort of the 13 occupancy, and it's related to -- well, first of 14 all, could you restate again how many one-bedroom, 15 two-bedroom and three-bedroom units there are? 16 MR. APPEL: The -- you want me to give 17 you a recap of -- of -- 18 MR. ERSHOW: Just the total number. I 19 don't care whether they're affordable or market 20 rate. 21 MR. APPEL: Let me... I'm sorry, the 22 copy that I have is too small to read. 23 (Pause) 24 MR. APPEL: Okay, so you're looking 25 for totals? Page 124 1 as well, so -- 2 MR. ERSHOW: But in general, it's not 3 being designed with the anticipation for any 4 children. 5 MR. APPEL: Well, there -- there is 6 currently not a dedicated tot lot right now on the 7 property; however, the clubhouse was considered to 8 have space at the lower level that would accommodate 9 children and likely would have a babysitting room as 10 well, so -- 11 MR. ERSHOW: Okay, so -- 12 MR. APPEL: -- there were 13 considerations on the architectural side, but I 14 don't believe that there was a dedicated tot lot -- 15 MR. ERSHOW: Okay. 16 MR. APPEL: -- on the property. 17 MR. ERSHOW: In your experience, and 18 you've done many of these, with -- irrespective of 19 where Building A, B and C and D is and all of that, 20 a project of this size, with this number of rooms, 21 any sense of how many children there might be? 22 MR. APPEL: Could not -- could not 23 give you an answer on that. 24 MR. ERSHOW: So no -- whether we -- 25 whether there might be, with 500 units, 50 children Page 123 1 MR. ERSHOW: Yeah, just the total 2 number. 3 MR. APPEL: The total number of 4 one-bedrooms is 68, total number of one-bedroom plus 5 dens is 101. This is -- I'm reading from the 6 market. Three-bedroom plus den is 16, three-bedroom 7 is 66. Two-bedroom plus den, 120, two-bedroom, 25, 8 and then the affordable one, two and three, 9 respectively, are 12, 64 and 24. 10 MR. ERSHOW: What? 11

hree-bedroom plus den is 16, three-bedroom 7 is 66. Two-bedroom plus den, 120, two-bedroom, 25, 8 and then the affordable one, two and three, 9 respectively, are 12, 64 and 24. 10 MR. ERSHOW: What? 11 MR. APPEL: 12, 64 and 24, for a total 12 -- 13 MR. ERSHOW: 24? 14 MR. APPEL: For a total of a hundred. 15 MR. ERSHOW: So when you were talking 16 about the amenities and everything, I heard you talk 17 about a dog park. I don't recall you mentioning any 18 other types of parks in anything. Was I mistaken; 19 are there any other parks or playgrounds or anything 20 like that? 21 MR. APPEL: There are outside 22 amenities contiguous with the clubhouse, there's 23 walking trails. The anticipation is that there are 24 sidewalks around the -- the community as well. The 25 idea is that the site would be walkable and bikable Page 125 1 or 200 children, that order of magnitude? 2 MR. APPEL: I've answered that, I 3 don't want to speculate on something that I don't 4 have separate knowledge of. 5 MR. ERSHOW: Okay. I mean, I -- and I 6 understand that and I appreciate it; the only reason 7 I ask it is because there's not even a provision in 8 the plan anywhere for any children outside of the 9 buildings and it should be considered somewhere. I 10 moved out of town 20 years ago and with some people 11 in this room, in addition to on the dais, a thousand 12 of us built schools that had people in trailers that 13 we had to account for and so everybody needs to 14 think about it. So we all have to think about it. 15 That's why I raised the topic. 16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 17 MR. APPEL: Okay. Thank you. 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Come right up and 19 state your name and spell your last name for the 20 record, please. 21 MS. GOLDSTEIN: I guess I'm the last 22 one, right? So Susan Goldstein and it's 23 G-O-L-D-S-T-E-I-N. 24 I primarily want to talk about -- and 25 thank you, Planning Board, for spending so much time

33 (Pages 126 to 129)33 (Pages 126 to 129) Page 126 1 on all of this. It's very upsetting to most of us. 2 I was wondering if you could pull up Building D on 3 the slides there. You have a couple pictures of it? 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Could you speak up? 5 Ma'am, could you speak up a little bit, please? 6 MS. GOLDSTEIN: I'll try again. I was 7 wondering if you could put back Building D up there. 8 MR. APPEL: You're looking at -- you 9 want to look at D-4? 10 MS. GOLDSTEIN: The one that has the 11 orange sort of, Building D, and it also has the 12 slope with the trees on it. You had it up a while 13 ago. 14 (Site plan is put up on the screen.) 15 MS. GOLDSTEIN: You guys must be tired 16 of craning your necks. 17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So -- oh, do you 18 know something? You want the -- 19 MS. GOLDSTEIN: The one that showed 20 Howell. Yeah. 21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The other 22 PowerPoint. 23 MS. GOLDSTEIN: I'm going to start to 24 ask my question while you're pulling that up. 25 So there's been a lot of discussion Page 128 1 around?" Bayowski is right at one end with about 2 six homes there, and Howell's on the other end, and 3 you've got The Grand on the right, and it doesn't 4 make sense to me on top of it; I'm asking, with it 5 being on the top of a slope, ridge, we've had two 6 landfill slides here in West Orange. I just -- I 7 would like to know the footage from the end of that 8 building, I don't know if that's north, south, east 9 or west towards Bayowski, and how much of the forest 10 footage would be left? We face the forest, so how 11 much would be left? 12 MR. APPEL: You're asking -- this is 13 really a site question. 14 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Is it site? Okay. 15 But we don't have someone coming back to talk to us 16 about site planning, do we? I'm asking. I don't 17 know. Because a lot of these questions that 18 everyone's been asking has to do with site planning, 19 because they keep saying "Oh, this isn't my 20 territory, it's site planning," but it's really hard 21 as a resident who's facing that forest and knowing 22 that that forest is going to get torn down. How 23 much of my footage of forest is going to be left for 24 us to look at with our house that faces that? 25 MR. APPEL: So you're talking about Page 127 1 about Howell, which is on one side, and then The 2 Grand is over here, my topic is Building D, but 3 there's been no discussion of the Highlands of

at? 25 MR. APPEL: So you're talking about Page 127 1 about Howell, which is on one side, and then The 2 Grand is over here, my topic is Building D, but 3 there's been no discussion of the Highlands of West 4 Essex where I believe Building D -- I hate to point 5 but if you had a pointer -- right there. That 6 should be -- what I'd like you to discuss is the 7 footage from that part to Bayowski Road in the 8 Highlands of West Essex. 9 MR. APPEL: You're talking about 10 somewhere down here (indicating). 11 MS. GOLDSTEIN: I'm not sure; I can't 12 tell from your maps. 13 MR. APPEL: Is that over here 14 (indicating)? 15 MS. GOLDSTEIN: So I can't see where 16 the cul-de-sac is. 17 MR. APPEL: I don't know that -- that 18 distance, you know, directly. It's -- it would need 19 to be scaled off the site plan. 20 MS. GOLDSTEIN: So that's pretty 21 important because, as the young man over here said 22 -- because I'm the young lady, right -- the young 23 man over there said "Why would you build Building D 24 closest -- as the largest building, closest to all 25 the residences -- all the residential buildings Page 129 1 the forest being torn down over here (indicating)? 2 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Well, you can't build 3 Building D without tearing down your -- that 6,000 4 trees, which nobody's going to sit there and count. 5 I just don't understand where Building D ends and 6 the cul-de-sac for Bayowski, what that footage is. 7 What's that frontal footage? How much green are we 8 going to be left with? 9 MR. PLOCKER: I just want to clarify, 10 and thank you for your question and concern, but I 11 just want to understand the member of the public's 12 question. You're talking about the area -- and 13 correct me if I'm wrong but -- 14 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Yeah. 15 MR. PLOCKER: -- this is laid out 16 north, south, east, west, so the top of the image is 17 the north, the bottom -- 18 MS. GOLDSTEIN: So that's where Howell 19 is, at the top. Yes? 20 MR. PLOCKER: Yes. 21 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Okay. 22 MR. PLOCKER: So Bayowski would be the 23 -- 24 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Correct. 25 MR. PLOCKER: -- where Mr. Appel

34 (Pages 130 to 133)34 (Pages 130 to 133) Page 130 1 pointed. 2 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Correct. We're at the 3 end, we face the forest, and we would have emergency 4 exits possibly besides Kuzik, so I just don't 5 understand how much forest you're going to leave us. 6 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: No, that's 7 Bakley. That's Bakley. 8 BOARD MEMBER: (Inaudible) 9 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Well, no, it's 10 not -- it's right next to -- a little left from 11 Bakley. 12 BOARD MEMBER: That's a house. 13 MS. GOLDSTEIN: That's my house right 14 there, that's me. So how much -- you know, it's 15 really hard to read these maps and figure out "Okay, 16 how much green are you going to leave me that I'm 17 facing?" 18 And that leads back to that young man's 19 question as to why you would build not only Building 20 D on a steep slope -- I teach science, you've got, 21 you know, fracking -- frail rock under there, slate 22 probably, shale probably, clay, so why would you put 23 the biggest building with the most residences near 24 all these buildings? 25 MR. PLOCKER: So just to confirm that Page 132 1 remaining, and I believe the setback from the 2 southern part of Building D to the property line is 3 over 500 feet. 4 MS. GOLDSTEIN: 500 feet, okay. 5 MR. PLOCKER: And -- 6 MS. GOLDSTEIN: I'm not being smart; 7 how many feet or yards is a football field? Who 8 knows? 9 (Members of the public shout out - 10 indiscernible) 11 MS. GOLDSTEIN: How many? 12 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: 300 feet. 13 MS. GOLDSTEIN: 300 feet, so a little 14 more than a football field. Okay, thank you. 15 MR. AFRAN: (Inaudible) 16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran, yes. 17 Could you say it in the microphone so we have it on 18 the record, sir? 19 MR. AFRAN: (Indiscernible) 20 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 21 I didn't mean to start testifying, I just wanted to 22 make a clear record to make sure to make sure the 23 area that we were talking about. 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Absolutely. 25 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you. Page 131 1 the area is the southern -- 2 MS. GOLDSTEIN: South. 3 MR. PLOCKER: -- and you have Building 4 D -- 5 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Yeah. 6 MR. PLOCKER: -- and going down to 7 Bayowski? 8 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Yes. 9 MR. PLOCKER: The site plan does not 10 propose to open Bayowski even for emergency access. 11 MS. GOLDSTEIN: That, I know changed, 12 it went to Kuzik instead, but for a while, I was 13 thinking that there would be a road there,

oes not 10 propose to open Bayowski even for emergency access. 11 MS. GOLDSTEIN: That, I know changed, 12 it went to Kuzik instead, but for a while, I was 13 thinking that there would be a road there, because 14 right at the end of our cul-de-sac, there's a road 15 -- I mean a path that goes into the woods. But -- 16 MR. PLOCKER: Yeah, there is no access 17 at all being proposed from Bayowski. 18 MS. GOLDSTEIN: Okay. 19 MR. PLOCKER: That was actually one of 20 the salient points that was requested by the... 21 (indiscernible) 22 MS. GOLDSTEIN: So how much green will 23 be left in that forest that we face? 24 MR. PLOCKER: We can certainly bring 25 our site engineer back, but almost all of it's Page 133 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Welcome. State your 2 name and spell your last name for the record. 3 MR. DOODNAUTH: Jeremy Doodnauth, 4 D-O-O-D-N-A-U-T-H. Quick question. Did you refer 5 to the building as being a green building? 6 MR. APPEL: Not green building but 7 having green -- there was a number of green 8 provisions in the ordinance. 9 MR. DOODNAUTH: So I think you said 10 that some of the criteria were optional versus 11 mandatory. 12 MR. APPEL: Well, they -- they listed 13 a bunch of requirements, but you didn't have to 14 choose all of them. So in other words, you needed 15 to have a certain, you know, certain of these to 16 perform and we will be building to meet or exceed 17 all of the green provisions. 18 MR. DOODNAUTH: Meet or exceed, okay. 19 MR. APPEL: Yes. 20 MR. DOODNAUTH: So is it safe to say 21 that you would be going for some type of LEED 22 certification? 23 MR. APPEL: That is not part of the 24 ordinance -- 25 MR. DOODNAUTH: No.