August 14, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

r, W-E-I-S-, as in Sam, L-E-D-, as in David, 6 E-R. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 8 MR. WEISLEDER: West Orange. 9 I guess my question is, we talked a lot 10 about the settlement agreement and what was agreed 11 upon by the town and by the West Essex Highlands, 12 the two parties involved. I live on Howell Drive, 13 not involved. Just making a statement there, and my 14 question is: Which plans were discussed in that 15 meeting, these plans that we're seeing tonight or 16 were they the concept plans, and what has changed 17 between the two? And there's where we -- I'm sorry 18 but the attorney has gone back that "this is an 19 agreement and we are allowed to do this," and yes, 20 you have sent in an application by law and you are 21 following the law. My question is, to the 22 architect, which plans were discussed, conceptual 23 plans, and which are before the Planning Board? 24 Because what was agreed upon by those three parties 25 was the plans that were looked at there, not looked Page 97 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, good. 2 MR. PLOCKER: First -- I'd just like 3 to comment -- 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker. 5 MR. PLOCKER: -- and maybe Ms. 6 McGovern would like to chime in. First of all, 7 whatever was discussed during the settlement 8 negotiations between the parties in that room were 9 privileged, there was pending and ongoing litigation 10 at that time and that is privileged, and from a 11 legal standpoint, it would not be proper to air that 12 before this Board. 13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: All right. 14 MR. PLOCKER: Second -- I need to 15 finish. 16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Go ahead. 17 MR. PLOCKER: Second, the concept plan 18 attached to the settlement agreement is typical; it 19 is only a concept plan. There are several 20 references in the settlement agreement that talk 21 about how the project is not fully engineered, 22 things can change. What was discussed and what is 23 in the concept plan attached to the settlement are 24 the general locations of the buildings in addition 25 with the ordinance requirements that the town agreed

26 (Pages 98 to 101)26 (Pages 98 to 101) Page 98 1 to adopt, which as part of compliance mechanisms, 2 the town eventually did adopt that ordinance, which 3 is now known as the IH-1 zoning ordinance, but to 4 discuss before this Board what was discussed in the 5 settlement room would be wholly improper, and two -- 6 excuse me, I just need a little water, my throat 7 just -- 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Take your time, take 9 your time. 10 (Pause) 11 MR. PLOCKER: And second, to the 12 extent that the concerned citizen tried to challenge 13 the settlement agreement or tried to amend it or -- 14 MR. WEISLEDER: I'm not trying to 15 challenge it. 16 MR. PLOCKER: -- or object to it, that 17 would not be within the purview or jurisdiction of 18 this Board. 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, good. One 20 second. I know, everybody's going to get a chance, 21 everybody's going to get a chance. 22 Ms. McGovern. 23 Hang in there, we're getting back, I 24 promise. 25 MR. AFRAN: I want to respond to -- Page 100 1 MR. WEISLEDER: If I want to do that, 2 I'll do that in a court of law and go to a judge. 3 Okay? 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran. Thank 5 you. 6 MR. AFRAN: For the record, this is 7 Bruce Afran, counsel for We Care New Jersey. I just 8 want to respond not on the issue of whether the 9 concept plan is the same or differs; that's not my 10 concern at the moment. I just want to respond to 11 Mr. Plocker's comment that in his view, what was 12 discussed in connection with that is privileged. 13 You know, on the one hand, Mr. Plocker made multiple 14 statements, as did Mr. Anderson, that the settlement 15 governs, the settlement governs, this Board has to 16 follow the settlement. So the settlement, in the 17 applicant's view, is a public interest that this 18 Board must follow, yet at the same time, the 19 settlement discussions that led to it are privileged 20 and no one can know what it said. So I just want to 21 state my legal disagreement. If there is a question 22 to a witness that requires such information and the 23 witness has it, in my judgment, there is no 24 privilege, and I just want to assert that position 25 for the objectors. I don't know if we're going to Page 99 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: One minute. Ms. 2 McGovern, you, you (indicating). We're getting 3 there. 4 MS. McGOVERN: I'm not going to the 5 privilege issue, I don't know what you're going to 6 say; what I would like to

BAGOFF: One minute. Ms. 2 McGovern, you, you (indicating). We're getting 3 there. 4 MS. McGOVERN: I'm not going to the 5 privilege issue, I don't know what you're going to 6 say; what I would like to say, a concept plan is a 7 more general plan and these are more specific, and 8 in the settlement agreement, it's been made clear 9 that this is a general, general idea of placement, 10 and then what they did was specifics and there are a 11 design criteria and there's a specific ordinance for 12 this piece of property that they have complied with, 13 those design terms as well as setbacks, heights, the 14 things that this Board is reviewing on site plan. 15 So specifics as some balconies, decks, those are 16 details that, no, were not in a concept plan. It's 17 more fleshed out in this plan that the Board is 18 having. But the positioning of the buildings, as I 19 understand it from the concept plan, were 20 substantially, if not identical, to where these 21 buildings are right now. 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Mr. Afran. 23 MR. WEISLEDER: And for the record, I 24 am not challenging the settlement. 25 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, thank you. Page 101 1 reach such a question, but if we do, I want to state 2 my respectful disagreement with Mr. Plocker's 3 interpretation. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, so noted. 5 You're up. 6 MR. WEISLEDER: Now I know I should 7 have gone to law school. That was well said. Thank 8 you. My next chapter maybe. 9 So with regard to -- it was mentioned 10 in your testimony about barbecues and grills being 11 allowed on the balconies, so I guess my question: 12 Will the other buildings have balconies as well or 13 just Building D? 14 MR. APPEL: I believe my testimony -- 15 I believe my testimony was that the grills would 16 only be on the common roof amenity, not on the 17 balconies. So typically, they're not permitted on 18 balconies, but you can have, in the -- on the common 19 area of the roof, you could have grills up there. 20 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay. And also, it 21 was brought up with several questions the use of a 22 back patio. I guess that was going to be on the 23 ground floor facing the slope, and my biggest 24 concern from the balcony and reading other studies 25 and things like that is the echoing of sound. Has

27 (Pages 102 to 105)27 (Pages 102 to 105) Page 102 1 that been taking into any consideration? Echoing of 2 sound traditionally goes into valleys and can be 3 heard from the top. For instance, when people are 4 playing loud music up there and doing other things 5 that they're not supposed to do, we can hear the 6 music coming down the slope. 7 MR. APPEL: So we have -- we have not 8 done that type of analysis yet. 9 MR. WEISLEDER: That is a big concern, 10 especially since Building D is the only one with the 11 roof balcony and that type of amenity. 12 MR. PLOCKER: I'll just represent for 13 the applicant -- 14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker. 15 MR. PLOCKER: -- we'll comply with all 16 township ordinances, nuisance ordinances, noise 17 ordinances. 18 MR. WEISLEDER: So Building D is the 19 only one that has that amenity balcony for use? 20 MR. APPEL: Are you talking about 21 balcony or -- 22 MR. WEISLEDER: I'm sorry, rooftop. 23 Rooftop. 24 MR. APPEL: Okay. Rooftop, you're 25 correct. Balconies are consistent on all the Page 104 1 are down, the people from Howell can look right up 2 and see back side of things like that and you're 3 proposing green and things like that. We live in a 4 seasonal-climate area. I drive around, I don't see 5 green all around, so I don't know what we're going 6 to be planting and maintaining through winter, fall, 7 spring. It's beautiful pictures, don't 8 misunderstand me, but there's a reality to this, and 9 I don't see that being a reality. But maybe you can 10 expand on that. 11 MR. APPEL: I'm not sure what the 12 question was. 13 MR. WEISLEDER: You showed on the 14 garages green to make it look pretty and said "It 15 will stay green, we're going to use real things to 16 keep it green." 17 MR. APPEL: Right. 18 MR. WEISLEDER: I'm not sure what 19 we're proposing here. 20 MR. APPEL: We are proposing that 21 these would be green, so... 22 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay. Maybe I'm in 23 the wrong climate. 24 And I also said that the closest house, 25 which I was told was mine, is 270 feet from that Page 103 1 buildings. 2 MR. WEISLEDER: On all the buildings. 3 Okay. 4 So the one question that I have is the 5 -- you were asked in regard to, I guess, how much is 6 going into the ground and the 50 percent and all 7 those things. In regard to the, you know, blasting, 8 in making that decision to ask for the variance, 9 wouldn't you agree that that's

how much is 6 going into the ground and the 50 percent and all 7 those things. In regard to the, you know, blasting, 8 in making that decision to ask for the variance, 9 wouldn't you agree that that's more of a cost 10 savings for the builder rather than looking nice? 11 Because you referred that we would have to then 12 build this or build extra walls and all of these 13 other things; it sounds like it's more of a cost 14 savings. It's nice to ask for a variance but then 15 it sounds like a more cost-savings feature for the 16 building. 17 MR. APPEL: My opinion is that, 18 aesthetically, this is far superior than having 19 walls and disruptions in grade and additional 20 disturbance and I think that was -- there was also 21 discussion by Mr. Anderson similar to that. 22 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay. In addition, I 23 would like to ask about, you showed a lot of green 24 and you made a statement that, really, no one's 25 going to see the back side, but when all the leaves Page 105 1 corner, from Building D facing north, correct? 2 MR. APPEL: To the corner that -- call 3 it the northeasterly corner of the building to the 4 actual house, not the property line but the house, 5 is that I scaled off 264 feet 8 inches, you know, 6 and that's off of a site plan so I would say that's 7 an approximate -- 8 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay. 9 MR. APPEL: -- dimension. 10 MR. WEISLEDER: And also, the setbacks 11 that you've created -- and I appreciate that, thank 12 you -- to ease the view for us on Howell, what kind 13 of sight studies were done, sight-line studies were 14 done looking down from Howell and from what points 15 were those done? 16 MR. APPEL: Well, that -- that was 17 exactly the purpose that -- why we were doing those 18 cross-sections, so that we had a better 19 understanding of the relationship of grade and trees 20 and everything else, so that -- that -- that was why 21 we took the time to do those cross-sections. 22 MR. WEISLEDER: Um-hum. 23 MR. APPEL: These were done not for 24 this meeting but done, you know, quite a bit -- 25 quite a bit of time ago.

28 (Pages 106 to 109)28 (Pages 106 to 109) Page 106 1 MR. WEISLEDER: Right. And I do 2 appreciate you being consistent with the lights, but 3 there will be lights from the apartments and other 4 lights people bring and I still think there's going 5 to be a lot of light pollution coming down that 6 hill, especially in the fall and in the winter time 7 when there is no coverage. So I don't know how 8 we're going to be preventing that being so close to 9 a -- a slope and those people in the Howell valley, 10 I'll call it now. 11 MR. APPEL: So one of the things that 12 I also wanted to clarify, that dimension that I gave 13 you was not to the upper floors, that was to the 14 base of the building, and the upper floors, based on 15 what we were just discussing with the wedding-caking 16 of the upper floors, actually cuts back and would 17 actually be additional dimension because the 18 building steps as it goes upward at those end caps. 19 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay. My last 20 question for you is: Obviously, it's a puzzle 21 laying out all these buildings, you know, and we're 22 trying to understand why Building D, the largest 23 building with all this room and space, we could all 24 be challenged, but there's got to be a way to move 25 it -- make it more amenable to the neighbors on Page 108 1 One was for the 50 percent foundation and the second 2 is for the seven-foot? Or no? No. That's not an 3 exception. 4 MR. PLOCKER: No, I addressed it 5 before but I would be happy to address it, ma'am. 6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker. 7 MR. PLOCKER: The only bulk variance 8 that the application seeks is for relief from the 50 9 percent requirement for the exposed foundations. 10 What everyone is calling "the ridgeline," that 11 dotted line on the concept plan and you refer to the 12 seven-foot measurement from the pitch point, unless 13 I misunderstood you. 14 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Yup. 15 MR. PLOCKER: That is not a lot line, 16 that is not a setback line. All that the ordinance 17 requires is that we stay west of that line. 18 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Okay. 19 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you. 20 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Understood. 21 Thank you for the clarification. 22 So one of my questions -- hang on a 23 second so I can go through this. Sorry, I should 24 have been more prepared. 25 Now I understand there's no ordinances Page 107 1 Howell Drive that have the least say. Was there an 2

s -- hang on a 23 second so I can go through this. Sorry, I should 24 have been more prepared. 25 Now I understand there's no ordinances Page 107 1 Howell Drive that have the least say. Was there an 2 opportunity to do that? 3 MR. PLOCKER: This is the plan that's 4 before the Board. 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. 6 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay. I'll finish my 7 questions for now. Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. We're 9 going to take a ten-minute bio break. 10 (Recess taken) 11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Welcome, ladies and 12 gentlemen, everybody on Zoom. Thank you so much. 13 Young lady, you're up. 14 Q. Thank you. I appreciate being young 15 lady. Who do I spell my name out to? Sorry. Who 16 do I spell my name out to? 17 BOARD MEMBER: All of us. 18 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Okay. First 19 name is S-E-J-A-L and then the last name is 20 J-H-A-V-E-R-I-hyphenated G-A-J-A-R-A-W-A-L-A, West 21 Orange. Is that good? 22 All right, so I think my first 23 question, I just want a clarification posed to all 24 the different comments before. There are actually 25 two variance exceptions you're looking for, right? Page 109 1 or laws for this, but since we are in extraordinary 2 times -- 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Can you hear? 4 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: -- will all 5 the buildings be built with potential earthquakes in 6 mind? 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry, ma'am -- 8 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: We have -- 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, can I ask you 10 to speak into the microphone? They can't hear you 11 in the back. 12 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Oh. 13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: They can't hear you 14 in the back. 15 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Oh. Sorry. 16 Can you hear me? 17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The air- 18 conditioning's too loud? 19 (Many members of the public shout out - 20 inaudible) 21 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Can you hear 22 me now? 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Is that better? 24 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Okay, let's 25 try this again.

29 (Pages 110 to 113)29 (Pages 110 to 113) Page 110 1 So I said I understand there may be no 2 ordinances or laws for this, but since we are in 3 extraordinary times, will all the buildings be built 4 with potential earthquakes in mind? The one in 5 April definitely impacted this area and we had two 6 on that one day? 7 MR. APPEL: So the building code has 8 seismic requirements and sections and we will be 9 fully conforming with the building code -- 10 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Okay. 11 MR. APPEL: -- with regard to that. 12 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: And this 13 whole -- I'm learning still. This whole 50 percent 14 foundation piece, that doesn't get -- I'm sorry, I 15 have a son who lives in California so I know under 16 the parking and all that stuff, so I just want to 17 verify. The two-level parking now won't have an 18 impact. 19 MR. APPEL: Nope. It's design -- 20 design issue, not a concern. 21 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Okay. All 22 right. My next question goes to, can you share any 23 local complexes that use the tandem parking? I 24 definitely ventured out to quite a few around this 25 area and I have not seen it, so I think it would be Page 112 1 it's -- there's a daycare in the building -- 2 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: I know what 3 you're talking about. By Primrose. 4 MR. APPEL: That has -- the Primrose 5 school. That has tandem parking. That's probably 6 the closest one that's finished -- 7 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Okay. 8 MR. APPEL: -- that somebody can look 9 at, but it's -- it's quite common. It's no 10 different having a tandem stall than having a car in 11 a garage and a car in the driveway in front and 12 you've got to move the car that's covered, you know, 13 but there's a traffic engineer who's going to be 14 talking possibly this evening or another evening and 15 they can probably provide some insight as well 16 because it's quite -- quite common. 17 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Okay. Thank 18 you for that information. My next question is 19 regarding sanitation. So it was noticed that 20 there's only one compactor and one recycling room on 21 each floor; is that correct? 22 MR. APPEL: Well -- so let me explain 23 a little bit more. The compactors are at the garage 24 level. Some of the buildings only have one 25 compactor and some of them have two compactors. Page 111 1 good for some of us who haven't seen it to 2 understand how it works, what happens

he garage 24 level. Some of the buildings only have one 25 compactor and some of them have two compactors. Page 111 1 good for some of us who haven't seen it to 2 understand how it works, what happens with it, 3 because -- and also, the question would be from a 4 day-to-day building operations team, which may not 5 be used, so I apologize, to avoid the use of visitor 6 parking spaces when they should be tandem parkers. 7 MR. APPEL: So I'll answer the second 8 one first. It's an operational issue, so the 9 developer, when they manage the property, they want 10 to make this all work, and if they have to change -- 11 if people are abusing the parking, they will put in 12 procedures to mitigate and correct that, so I -- you 13 know, it's one of those things is that you have to 14 be a little bit nimble and fluid to address that and 15 you address a problem like that operationally. 16 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Okay. How 17 about any local -- I don't know if the Planning 18 Board has seen any local complexes that do tandem 19 parking. It's a new concept for me, so... 20 MR. APPEL: So I'm going to say almost 21 every one of our projects do have tandem parking, 22 it's very, very common right now, so I'm thinking -- 23 let's talk West Orange, right -- how about right 24 across from South Mountain arena, there's a building 25 I don't know what the name of the building is but Page 113 1 Then there's trash chutes that go from the compactor 2 up and hit a small trash room on each floor. So -- 3 and those -- if there's two compactors, there will 4 be two trash rooms -- 5 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Okay. 6 MR. APPEL: -- and we try to locate 7 those strategically and conveniently, but this is 8 the preferred way to do this. This is far better 9 than carrying trash down in elevators and -- 10 MS. JHAVERI-GAJARAWALA: Perfectly 11 fine with that, I just want to -- but I guess the 12 question is the size of those rooms, right? There's 13 a lot of recycling, you're talking about a lot of 14 residents on that floor to just have one area to 15 bring all their stuff into and then not have impact, 16 because they're supposed to bring all their 17 recycling there. I put three cans of recycling out 18 today and we're two people in our house, so I'm just 19 trying to understand how all of those people on one 20 floor is going to be able to handle one area for 21 recycling. 22 MR. APPEL: So

ng out 18 today and we're two people in our house, so I'm just 19 trying to understand how all of those people on one 20 floor is going to be able to handle one area for 21 recycling. 22 MR. APPEL: So we -- we looked at that 23 there are metrics that are available that talk about 24 how much recycling is generated and we did look at 25 that and we even used the smaller containers as a