October 30, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

15 of 80 sheets Page 57 to 60 of 203 11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM 57 and we have indicated in this report that our1 measurements showed at least 80 to 100 yards of clear2 viewing. Now, what that means is there is nothing3 blocking my view but large trees for every 80 to 1004 yards, which means if you were standing 100 yards away5 from me I could probably see you. In a healthy forest6 that should not occur. I should not be able to see you7 100 yards away. Again, as I have noted in my8 observation, we saw ten deer in that one survey. The9 forest consists, as we said, of mostly large trees in10 the observation walk through that we did in 2024 because11 we weren't being specific to plots that were12 specifically identified. We did notice a couple one and13 two inch seedlings and saplings I should say. They're14 not seedlings at that point. So we did notice some15 saplings. We also, because, again, the question was16 raised, we did a little more identification of some of17 the tree species, I will not go through the Latin names18 that are in the report, but you can look them up.19 Numerous species of oak, that makes sense, this is an20 oak mixed hardwood forest which is common to this part21 of New Jersey. We noticed multiple maples, hickories.22 We also noted pleasantly and surprisingly some flowering23 dogwoods as an understory tree. They are fairly large,24 which means they survive the deer. Unfortunately also I25 58 would point out to you, sadly that flowering dogwood is1 subject to a disease called anthracnose, which is a2 fungus and unfortunately we're losing a lot of3 flowering, native flowering dogwoods as well. They have4 a shot of surviving, it's not something -- it's native.5 It's a native disease, we think they'll survive.6 We did also notice American beech, which I7 did mention to you as being a tree that I do not expect8 to see there within a decade or two at most, because of9 beech leaf disease.10 Black cherry, good understory tree and11 sassafras, also an understory tree. We did notice a few12 of those. Those are good signs. It's a fairly diverse13 forest, as I said, what we would call an oak mixed14 hardwood forest that's native to New Jersey and this15 part of New Jersey.16 Also in the walk-through, as I said, we did17 notice beech leaf disease. We did see some very large18 trees, we took some very few measurements just to19 reiterate, and we have

5 part of New Jersey.16 Also in the walk-through, as I said, we did17 notice beech leaf disease. We did see some very large18 trees, we took some very few measurements just to19 reiterate, and we have some really good size trees, 2420 to 36 inches in diameter. That's a big tree. That's a21 really good sized tree.22 We also put in there that we give you our23 conclusions. We talk about, again, excessive deer24 browse, I'll just reiterate quickly that deer fencing25 59 would help.1 The other findings that we made, there were2 questions raised on two other issues here. One was3 there was some concern over the observation of the4 ventilation grates I believe they're called, is that the5 correct term for the parking garages. There was some6 concern over those ventilation grates and the7 observation of them. So I did a little bit of research8 and submitted it with this. Some suggestions, there are9 some native, it's going to be tricky, indigenous to the10 east coast, vines, some of which are evergreen, I mean,11 they' don't lose their leaves. Some of which have great12 flowering capacity for humming birds. The most common13 ones live further south, but are moving north. So you14 could say, are they native to New Jersey, it gets into a15 fight, they're going to be. But they're native to the16 United States and they could be planted and going to, I17 believe it was the Chairman who raised it, but they18 could go in and hide the grates and allow for19 butterflies.20 Also there was a question raised on21 pollinator gardens, so I'm suggesting that we get the22 applicant to look at the species, and I put a species23 list in this report that they could look at and pick24 them. Not saying pick this one, but they could put25 60 together certain species to maximize pollinators,1 butterflies, bees, etc., for the area where they might2 want to put those gardens. But that's all part of this3 in trying to be, in answering the October 16 report, to4 the questions raised by this board.5 MR. ALPER: I appreciate it.6 I think that might be all I have. Yes,7 thank you.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: For housekeeping, ladies9 and gentleman on zoom and in the audience, this report10 was provided to the township and is on the township11 website as a link. You can download it or open it12 yourself and at this time I'd like to ask the applicant13 or Mr. Plocker, would you agree to Page 3, having

to the township and is on the township11 website as a link. You can download it or open it12 yourself and at this time I'd like to ask the applicant13 or Mr. Plocker, would you agree to Page 3, having a14 chance to look at that October 16, 2024 report, the15 three recommendations by Mr. DeFeo on those pages?16 Applicant seems to be signifying saying yes.17 MR. PLOCKER: Oh no, I did receive and18 review them, but I think your question is, as a19 condition of approval would the applicant agree to those20 recommendations?21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, that's what I'm22 asking.23 MR. PLOCKER: That's correct, we do.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Good. Thank you so25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 61 to 64 of 203 16 of 80 sheets 61 much.1 MR. ALPER: And I think the one thing2 concerning the GIS overlay and tagging of specimen trees3 or what have you, is that we would hopefully not just4 note where the 36 or 40 inch tree is but we'd say5 there'd be a process by which we could say, wait a6 minute, this one and this one are under the middle of a7 building, that's a problem. We can't do anything about8 it but this ones alongside a road where we can maybe9 adjust it.10 MR. PLOCKER: Sure. And just for the11 record, it's always been the applicants position that12 when in the field happenings, if there is an approval13 and we are in the field, we are committed to work with14 the town, whether that be Mr. DeFeo or anybody else the15 town chooses to discuss these issues to determine what16 the best species and best course of action is when we're17 actually in the field putting stuff in the ground.18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.19 Mr. Wilkes.20 MR. WILKES: Umm, yes. Can you just give me21 another explanation for the deer fence credit? Just22 trying to understand it better. How you got to your23 number.24 THE WITNESS: There -- basically we say25 62 there are 212 trees per acre in that forest, that's our1 estimate of the highest density. Now, as I said earlier2 we use that highest density number from all different3 tree plots to calculate the potential damage or4 potential removal, because that made it look as bad as5 it could look. To be fair, if I was trying to encourage6 someone to spend a lot of money to do deer fencing and7 preserve a forest, I need to give that equivalent credit8 for the acreage protection and say those same makers9 have that same density and that's where you get to that10 number.11 MR. WILKES: Okay.12 And so when we're talking about where the13 deer fencing is, you're saying where the areas are going14 to be protected is kind of acting like a sponge, is that15 what you're saying?16 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Let me go back to this.17 Okay. Sorry again about that. Technology is a18 wonderful thing.19 In this deer fenced area as we're saying,20 within two to three, four years tops, this areas going21 to be heavily regrown with light growth, understory22 growth. Perhaps tree seedlings, shrubbery, flowers,23 etc. Remember, this area here that's being disturbed is24 being relandscaped with all native species of

ly regrown with light growth, understory22 growth. Perhaps tree seedlings, shrubbery, flowers,23 etc. Remember, this area here that's being disturbed is24 being relandscaped with all native species of trees,25 63 shrubs and native grasses and wild flowers. As they1 mature, and by the way, just going back to just2 reiterate, going back to an earlier question I believe3 by Mr. Morgan, you know, yes, we have drought, but these4 areas I suspect to be irrigated, which will give what's5 planted a good chance of survival. As the seeds start6 to grow in here and fill in this place with seedlings7 you will have more absorption of water because you have8 more plants. This is not a mathematical question, it is9 more plants mean more water absorption if it's on a10 steep slope. This area is less sloped, of course.11 That's the basis of the formula. The credit, as I said,12 based on tree per acre -- excuse me. Goes back to the13 cost of this deer fencing. This is not an inexpensive14 agreement for the applicant and as I stated earlier to15 Mr. Alper, I know of no other settlement, sorry,16 ordinance that incorporates anything like this. I am17 not saying they don't exist, I just don't know of any18 and I have asked all over the state.19 MR. WILKES: Okay.20 THE WITNESS: Does that answer your question?21 MR. WILKES: Yes, somewhat. Some what.22 Now, this is really asking the question that really23 doesn't have much of an answer, like you said, it's not24 done by anybody else before, so not much to go on. But25 64 what I am a little concerned about is that, I think Mr.1 Alper asked the question, about what is your2 recommendation, are they going to be able to do enough3 for the other areas. So those areas are really acting4 as a sponge, are we just looking at the rest of the area5 deteriorating without really doing much to help. What6 is the applicant -- what do you recommend the applicant7 do to maybe, I'm thinking about what you asked, as well8 as what are your plans, exactly what you recommended for9 them to do?10 THE WITNESS: Are you talking about this11 light green area on the other side of the deer fencing?12 MR. WILKES: Yes. Yes, on the other side of13 the deer fencing.14 THE WITNESS: That areas going to remain the15 way it is today. You know, perhaps somewhere down the16 road working with the manager, I can't say it is going17 to happen, all sorts of things can be

.14 THE WITNESS: That areas going to remain the15 way it is today. You know, perhaps somewhere down the16 road working with the manager, I can't say it is going17 to happen, all sorts of things can be done. But it will18 grow the way it's growing today. The trees that are in19 here, short of the species that I've already identified,20 such as American beech and ash, those trees are healthy21 in this area and in some cases some of the oaks in this22 area probably have another 100 years of life, you know.23 Most of them, other than ones that are infected, as I24 talked about, could live anywhere from 100 to 150 years.25

17 of 80 sheets Page 65 to 68 of 203 11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM 65 I'm not certain, I'm reasonably certain I won't be here1 in 150 years to see what happens to it, but I can't tell2 you what will happen that far down the road. What I can3 say is deterioration shouldn't, shouldn't, again,4 there's no absolute number to this, shouldn't be any5 worse than it is today. In fact it might get better6 because you have so many new plants going in to reseed,7 it's conceivable, with no promises, that enough new8 plants will grow in a similar fashion to my seeing some9 young saplings in there that enough might start to10 survive because of everything else going on and by sheer11 number I might have a healthier forest. I have a12 chance, let me put it that way.13 MR. WILKES: Okay. We're really going based14 on what you had mentioned in your testimony earlier that15 if you don't do anything it's going to get worse. So16 that's why I want to be able to have something in place17 to protect that.18 THE WITNESS: Well, that's why we have the19 deer fencing here. Because that gives use a base of a20 seed bank.21 MR. WILKES: Okay.22 THE WITNESS: That's a starting point. Now,23 I have heard people say seeds won't get from A to B.24 Well, those barberry didn't get there by themselves.25 66 MR. WILKES: Right.1 THE WITNESS: Seedlings can travel several2 hundred yards in the wind, up to miles in some cases for3 certain seeds. Wildlife moves, deer will move, they4 will carry seeds. If you've ever walked through this5 forest or any forest and gotten burs on your clothes,6 that is a means of seed transmission. It's going to get7 there.8 MR. WILKES: Okay.9 No other questions.10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.11 Mr. Cardoza.12 MR. CARDOZA: Thank you Mr. DeFeo for your13 presentation and your testimony during questioning thus14 far.15 You had a reference in Page 4, you have a16 reference in P-4 as far as three years of tree growth17 and in a later slide at the end of the deck you18 referenced that native species contending with invasive19 species when provided the right specific beneficial20 conditions can contend with those invasive species. So21 the, ultimately saying that the deer fencing would,22 under the best conditions, create or would everything23 going correctly, would create those conditions?24 THE WITNESS: The deer fencing's intended to25 67 maximize the possibility of those conditions.

under the best conditions, create or would everything23 going correctly, would create those conditions?24 THE WITNESS: The deer fencing's intended to25 67 maximize the possibility of those conditions. I can't1 guarantee anything at all. No one can because we're2 dealing with nature.3 MR. CARDOZA: What are some of those ideal4 conditions?5 THE WITNESS: That we start getting normal6 weather, and I don't know what that is any more quite7 honestly to tell you the truth. But if we start getting8 normal rain falls and some normal temperature swings,9 the fact that we have wildlife moving through the area10 will help, because it helps reseed. We have fox, we11 know there are fox in the area. I know there are coyote12 in West Orange. We have multiple species of birds and13 small game. All of those animals act as disbursal14 agents for the forest. With the deer fencing, what that15 does is allow where they have disbursed those seedlings16 have a better chance of growth. And what you will get17 is what we call more normal forest succession, where the18 forest ages, young things grow, old ones die. And as19 they get replaced, so as a large trees, to give you an20 illustration, if we have a storm and a large tree is21 thrown down in that deer fenced area, it's not going to22 be cut up. It will remain undisturbed. That tree that23 comes down acts as a nursery for new tree seedling. As24 the tree rots it creates a growth environment, that's25 68 wonderful for new trees. So that is what you'll start1 to see to occur. Now if I see that and I get new growth2 it's gone, because the deer come and eat it, which I3 can't blame the deer, but that's what they do.4 MR. CARDOZA: Okay. I appreciate that.5 So you can't say for certain, you know, you6 just can't positively say yes, you know, 100 percent,7 you know, it's great the deer fencing alone, but I8 believe during Council President Rutherfords questioning9 you referenced three to five year time span. I'm sorry,10 what was that in reference to?11 THE WITNESS: This shows you, you can see12 here, this is deer fencing. Okay. Where I'm standing13 is on the wrong side of the fencing where there is no14 deer fencing. Within three years this area was15 completely denuded by deer. But it's very similar to16 the forest that we're talking about. It looked17 basically the same. In three years this is the growth,18 after the deer fencing is

is area was15 completely denuded by deer. But it's very similar to16 the forest that we're talking about. It looked17 basically the same. In three years this is the growth,18 after the deer fencing is in place, starting to come up.19 In fact this is even worse than the spot I was at in our20 forest because it was farm field and there was some21 other things as well, but there was no growth here.22 This is how quickly land regenerates itself when it's23 given that opportunity. That's what I was referencing24 in three years.25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 69 to 72 of 203 18 of 80 sheets 69 MR. CARDOZA: Okay. That's appreciated.1 I believe you also had a slide referencing2 the percentage of seedlings that you expect to fall into3 the fenced area. After, I don't know how, was that a4 projection after a certain amount of time?5 THE WITNESS: I'm not certain I had a number6 of seedlings.7 MR. CARDOZA: It was towards the end of the8 deck.9 THE WITNESS: Okay. Let me move to that.10 Again, my apologies for not numbering these. Let's see.11 Probably this slide you're talking here?12 MR. CARDOZA: I believe so.13 THE WITNESS: Yeah, as part of the landscape14 plan that is currently proposed, and mind you, this is15 somewhat fluid in terms of some numbers, these numbers16 may increase, the speciation, the specific species are17 not ironed out in stone yet. But they are looking at18 using, as is pretty common in developments, you see19 flowers put in the ground. You see shrubs put in the20 ground or perennials. Most places use Bermuda grass.21 Your typical lawn, one of the greatest weed infestations22 we've ever created in my opinion. They aren't going to23 be using a lot of them. They are going to be using24 native plants, native ground cover. That's what I said.25 70 They're proposing 2166, I don't know the exact number1 we'll end up with, but it will be at least that. And as2 they grow and spread they will create -- go to seed.3 And as they go to seed they will spread throughout the4 area. That's the goal. That they become nursery stock,5 if you will. You're not digging them up to move them,6 don't get me wrong, but they're going to become nursery7 stock by seed. One of the advantage of native plants8 over nonnative plants is that native plants will seed9 themselves. Many nonnative plants don't seed, because10 they're hybridized and can be sterile. These will seed11 and spread, which is what we want.12 MR. CARDOZA: Okay.13 So with these native plant additions,14 repeating that a little bit of Mr. Wilkes questioning,15 is there a way to project how much we can expect16 seedlings falling in an undisturbed area versus the17 fenced area or, you know, outside of the developed area.18 There's no way to, you know --19 THE WITNESS: It will depend on the20 direction of the wind, the strength of the wind and21 where the animals choose to go.22 MR. CARDOZA: Okay.23 The proposed deer fencing, how far