October 30, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

an19 asphalt, different than grass, different than --20 THE WITNESS: Grass is not a whole lot21 different than gravel and asphalt quite honestly. But,22 yes, there are such studies, I don't have them. I23 didn't research them for this. I couldn't give you24 those numbers or coefficients, but I'd have to go25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 45 to 48 of 203 12 of 80 sheets 45 research them separately, I didn't look for that in this1 case. That's based on my knowledge and experience and2 observation.3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.4 COUNCIL PRESIDENT RUTHERFORD: That's it for5 me, sir.6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, excuse me for one7 second Mr. Chairman, if I may. There was a third thing8 you asked me to look up and was that, what the Mayor9 asked.10 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Essex County.11 THE WITNESS: Essex County. I just want to12 make sure I get it right.13 COUNCIL PRESIDENT RUTHERFORD: That's if for14 me, Mr. Chair.15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you Council16 President.17 Vice Chair Guarino.18 VICE CHAIRMAN GUARINO: Thank you, Mr.19 Chairman.20 Mr. DeFeo, quick question. The current21 invasion of nonnative North American pests, i.e. spotted22 lantern and Joro spiders coming into the area and the23 effect with the forecast and current moisture and rain24 distrubution, what kind of effect did that have or did25 46 you take into consideration in your forecast for1 reforestation and regeneration?2 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know of anyone3 that's done a particular study on this level drought in4 New Jersey and the impact. Clearly you're not going to5 have seed germination at this time of year as a rule6 anyway, we're going to the end of the growth season.7 Secondly, in this kind of a drought8 obviously seeds cannot germinate, that's basic science9 101.10 As far as the change in climate going11 forward and the invasive species, certain invasive12 species of course are a host. The spotted lantern fly,13 the good news this year, believe it or not, we haven't14 been stomping as many spotted lantern fly's as we have15 over the past few years. There are, we don't quite know16 why, but we are finding that to be good news. We have17 found that some native spiders and native insects are18 eating spotted lantern fly's and some bird species, I19 guess, they're acquiring a taste. We will have a new20 spider coming in soon that also has a taste for them,21 you probably have heard about. A very large spider.22 Harmless, but likes them, which is good.23 As far as the impact of regeneration of the24 forest. It clearly would slow it down and that's just25 47 common sense. It is basic science. The, can I say what1 will happen as we go forward if we have droughts2 evisceration in perpetuity, well it wouldn't

t clearly would slow it down and that's just25 47 common sense. It is basic science. The, can I say what1 will happen as we go forward if we have droughts2 evisceration in perpetuity, well it wouldn't make much3 difference if there was deer fencing or not, because4 nothings going to grow anywhere. We have to,5 truthfully, you have to hope for some rain. That's the6 best we can hope for. Clearly it will slow it down.7 Invasive species, clearly emerald ash borer, wiping out8 our ash trees. Spotted lantern fly doesn't, per se,9 wipe out a particular species. The key is to get rid of10 invasive like Ailanthus, which is a host species. We'd11 like to make sure that doesn't occur. I didn't see much12 Ailanthus in that forest, which is good. But getting13 rid of invasive species helps, because invasive species14 are often hosts for invasive insects and that's15 something that we would like to reduce.16 VICE CHAIRMAN GUARINO: Okay. Thank you,17 Mr. DeFeo.18 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. DeFeo, is there any20 federal or state organization that the applicant can be21 suppled with seedlings to replant in the forest to help22 move things along?23 THE WITNESS: There are programs run by the24 Department of Environmental Protection each year and the25 48 Department of Agriculture give out seedlings. I'm not1 certain a commercial developer or professional developer2 would be eligible for them for free, but there are3 programs federally and on the state level for that. I4 haven't looked into the specifics. They're typically5 designed for homeowners and towns looking to do local6 parkland.7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Can you look into that and8 see whether the developer and/or the town could find9 that out and start replanting as part of this project?10 Mr. Alper.11 MR. ALPER: Thank you.12 Mr. DeFeo, I'm going to apologize, I'm going13 to jump around back to some of your testimony and things14 in your written report and a lot of sort of questions15 that Council President Rutherford had.16 First, the idea of the tree credit for the17 fenced area, is that common in projects like this?18 THE WITNESS: It's a very good question.19 Projects like this are not common. I have not seen, and20 I've spoken to environmental chairs from multiple towns21 and planners from multiple towns and counties that I22 work with or know over the years, and I said, has anyone23 ever had this

ot seen, and20 I've spoken to environmental chairs from multiple towns21 and planners from multiple towns and counties that I22 work with or know over the years, and I said, has anyone23 ever had this type of ordinance, I won't use the word24 settlement agreement again, this type of an ordinance25

13 of 80 sheets Page 49 to 52 of 203 11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM 49 with the environmental safeguards of this type, with1 this type of mandate done before, because when I started2 these negotiations the first step I made was to contact3 colleagues and say, hey, I've been asked to do this4 negotiation, I've never seen literature, have you. No.5 To tell you how much no one has seen it is, I'm going to6 use the word settlement agreement again because I don't7 have the ordinance, but the negotiated pages from the8 environmental settlement element, the one section that9 says, environmental, I have been e-mailing around the10 state to other colleagues who have asked for it. And in11 fact even in my own town we now use it as a handout for12 developers as a guideline. So the short answer is, no.13 MR. ALPER: So it's a unique idea?14 THE WITNESS: I don't want to take credit,15 again, for it's a unique idea, but I give your town16 credit for pushing for the question and saying, make the17 environmental concessions part of this somehow.18 MR. ALPER: Is there anything that DEP would19 deny even if they even if they can deny, the ability to20 put a fence, especially on the wetlands side?21 THE WITNESS: So we're not going into the22 wetlands, so we're fine there. Even if we were in the23 limited, the zone where we have a buffer zone to a24 wetland, we would still technically be fine under the25 50 Wetlands Act. If I put a wooden post into the buffer1 zone, I'm okay. If I put a wooden post in concrete in2 the buffer zone, I'm in trouble. It's a strange little3 --4 MR. ALPER: Even if it's in concrete?5 THE WITNESS: Correct. Nothing permanent is6 the answer to your question.7 MR. ALPER: On the deer, would it be8 reasonable to expect displaced deer could become a9 problem here, not just in the yards, but in terms of10 traffic and cars, collisions, that sort of thing?11 THE WITNESS: You know, I would suggest to12 you that the deer are already a problem for traffic in13 neighboring yards. We're not talking about -- again,14 there's 60 acres for them to roam in and eat on that15 property and continue to eat. I don't have a density of16 deer per acre, but I know if you look at South Mountain17 Reservations density of deer per acre it's way to high.18 They will move, there is no doubt about it. Will they19 be a greater traffic problem than they are today, I20 couldn't answer your

Mountain17 Reservations density of deer per acre it's way to high.18 They will move, there is no doubt about it. Will they19 be a greater traffic problem than they are today, I20 couldn't answer your question.21 MR. ALPER: If it was desired to get a deer22 population survey, how would that take place?23 THE WITNESS: You'd have to hire a wildlife24 surveying company, somebody that specializes in doing25 51 deer counts and they would come in, it's not exactly1 like a tree survey because of course deer move, but we2 would do that kind of a count and come up with a density3 per acre. You could read, I can get it for you, but if4 you look at South Mountain Reservation, they've done a5 deer density survey there. Duke Farms, anyone that has6 deer problems does a deer density survey. Any survey I7 have read for anywhere in Essex County says we have too8 many deer per acre.9 MR. ALPER: Would you recommend one be done10 as part of this project? Is it important to know the11 actual number or actual count on density?12 THE WITNESS: In my opinion, no. I'd be13 happy to research it further. I don't see that this has14 enough impact on the deer population. The deer15 population is impacted by many factors and one of them16 is just general development.17 MR. ALPER: Okay.18 Is it possible there's something other than19 the deer, the underbrush disease, people partying in the20 woods, human evidence that you've seen on the trails?21 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, could you repeat22 that.23 MR. ALPER: Is it possible something other24 then the deer is contributing to the loss of underbrush25 52 that if you were to contain so that in which case maybe1 deer fencing would destroy the underbrush because of2 disease, like with the trees or it's human activity3 traveling?4 THE WITNESS: The human activity that I've5 observed over the last four years, plus or minus, tends6 to be very confined to very specific sites. Sites that7 are boarded by rock and bolder, places where people8 could hide. I don't want to get into anything else but9 the number of beer cans I saw would imply there was10 illegal drinking there. The illegal deer stands. Zip11 lines that were from tree to tree. My favorite was a12 motor cross course that was built between the trees and13 that one I don't understand. But that -- the impact14 would be very localized. The impact of lack of15 undergrowth is throughout the forest

12 motor cross course that was built between the trees and13 that one I don't understand. But that -- the impact14 would be very localized. The impact of lack of15 undergrowth is throughout the forest and humans aren't16 going at that level throughout the whole forest.17 MR. ALPER: Okay.18 How much maintenance does large scale deer19 fencing need?20 THE WITNESS: It really all depends on the21 weather. Galvanized deer fencing is going to last a22 long time. Galvanizing is an old process and it tends23 not to rot out. If something falls on it, i.e. a tree24 falls, that needs maintenance. The posts, I did check25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 53 to 56 of 203 14 of 80 sheets 53 at Duke Farms, their wooden posts have been in the1 ground in some cases over a decade without any rot. So2 I would say limited maintenance short of destruction by3 weather, that I can't make a prediction here.4 MR. ALPER: Is it feasible to have a5 maintenance manual for that, sort of like you have to6 have a maintenance manual for storm water systems?7 THE WITNESS: In the report that I submitted8 to the planning board you will see the New Jersey9 Department of Agriculture requirements for the deer10 fencing and that will reference what needs to be done.11 MR. ALPER: Okay.12 I think you were asked about this. Any idea13 how long it would take the undergrowth in the fenced14 area, as it starts to regenerate, how long would it take15 for it to absorb as much water as the trees and whatever16 underbrush is removed from the destruction?17 THE WITNESS: Well, you're looking really at18 two questions. The short answer is, I couldn't tell you19 the exact absorption rate as I mentioned earlier. There20 are such formulas for such things. But the general21 consensus would be, number one, as of right now in the22 deer fenced area you're not going to lose trees. No23 ones cutting them down. So all this would do is be an24 additive. Where trees are being removed, you heard25 54 significant testimony regarding storm water regulations1 and storm water design, that water is contained2 separately. The areas of the deer fencing will increase3 water absorption on those slopes over time. Using the4 data I've seen at the Duke Farms Foundation and5 elsewhere, within three to four years you're going to6 have significant undergrowth coming in. That's7 significant new plant growth which should increase8 absorption very quickly. As to absolute numbers, I9 can't give you those.10 MR. ALPER: There's a mention in your11 written report about using some GPS maps to point out12 specific trees to possibly preserve, is that something13 we can require as a condition?14 THE WITNESS: Yes, and I apologize, I did15 not actually reference my report per se. I was16 referencing the PowerPoint. In my secondary report I do17 make three recommendations for you that are in response18 to questions that have been raised by this board and by19 residents. The first one being what can we do, all20 though this is a indirect response, what can we do

dations for you that are in response18 to questions that have been raised by this board and by19 residents. The first one being what can we do, all20 though this is a indirect response, what can we do to21 protect trees that are in the disturbed area. Because,22 again, it doesn't per se have to be clear cut23 necessarily. I am recommending, I don't know that you24 can require, I defer to counsel what you can and can't25 55 require, but I do recommend that we can do what's called1 a GIS overlay or GPS overlay where using exact data2 points of latitude and longitude we can identify tree3 locations of species and particular trees that are of4 unique value and therefore see if those trees, for5 example we could set a parameter, every tree over 366 inches, and I'm just picking a number by they way, I'm7 not telling you that is the number. But we could say we8 want to know every tree of greater than 36 inches in the9 area of disturbance and which of those we might be able10 to preserve. I would recommend that that is a good11 thing to do, it is not very expensive, it is very quick12 to do and it would definitely give us more. Does that13 mean all those trees would be saved, absolutely not.14 Doesn't mean that all. If it's in the middle of a15 building it's not going to be there. But it gives us16 another point of reference to look at because those17 mature trees become seed trees going forward.18 MR. ALPER: Can you, just for the publics19 edification and ours, can you mention your other20 suggested conditions?21 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, can you say that22 again.23 MS. MCGOVERN: For the record, your reports24 dated October 16, 2024.25 56 THE WITNESS: Is that what you're asking,1 date of the report?2 MS. MCGOVERN: I just want it as a reference3 point. I wanted it to be on the record what we were4 talking about.5 THE WITNESS: And what was your question?6 MR. ALPER: I was looking for your three7 other conditions you recommended.8 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. Well, in that, and9 I'll restate it just for the record, October 16, 202410 report which was submitted, what we did here is two11 things in this report. One, it updates the 2019 tree12 study with 2024 field observations. We did not repeat13 the tree count, because there was really no need to do14 so. The forest has changed virtually not at all in15 those years. And in that situation what we noted, again16 consistently,

e did not repeat13 the tree count, because there was really no need to do14 so. The forest has changed virtually not at all in15 those years. And in that situation what we noted, again16 consistently, because this was raised by the public, has17 the forest changed. Have you looked at the forest18 again. The finding is that there is still lack of19 understory growth. There are very few shrubs, seedlings20 or wild flowers. As I noted earlier the primary finding21 of shrubbery in that area is what we call Japanese22 barberry, which is a highly invasive plant.23 Unfortunately, just as a side note, still sold at most24 garden centers in New Jersey, which I do not understand,25