October 30, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

the record that the IH-1 zoning ordinance13 which applies to this application, there is a section14 called, Tree Removal and Replacement. Are you familiar15 with that?16 THE WITNESS: I didn't read the ordinance17 lately.18 MR. PLOCKER: Lately. But is it fair to say19 that the calculations that you discussed and the 21220 trees per acre are contained in the ordinance?21 THE WITNESS: Yes, because that's part of22 the way -- was part of what I negotiated for settlement.23 MR. PLOCKER: Okay.24 And does the application, based upon your25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 85 to 88 of 203 22 of 80 sheets 85 review, comply with the Tree Removal and Replacement1 section of the IH-1 zoning ordinance?2 THE WITNESS: In my opinion, based on what I3 have read, it does.4 MR. PLOCKER: Okay.5 And just one more clarification, and this is6 really a representation for the applicant. Did you7 represent, and I will reference the settlement8 agreement, you referenced a certain exhibit I thought9 you said you've shared with other professionals or10 towns, is that correct?11 THE WITNESS: Yes.12 MR. PLOCKER: I just want to confirm, is13 that Exhibit C to the Settlement Agreement entitled,14 Design Terms and Conditions?15 THE WITNESS: Just may I see it for a second.16 MR. PLOCKER: It's part of the --17 MS. MCGOVERN: Do you have your copy,18 because I have my copy.19 MR. PLOCKER: I have a copy here, and for20 the record, it's part of the application materials that21 is part of the website and agenda.22 THE WITNESS: Counsel, do you want me to23 look at this one?24 MS. MCGOVERN: If it's the Exhibit WO-2,25 86 which is part of the --1 MR. PLOCKER: Yes. I don't have it2 numbered.3 MS. MCGOVERN: Okay. Well, yes, go ahead4 and look at it.5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Why don't you read what it6 says on top of the page.7 THE WITNESS: It says, Exhibit C, Design8 Terms and Condition WEHI Challenge Permit.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Perfect. Go for it.10 THE WITNESS: Yes, Exhibit C represents the11 environmental conditions of the tree replacement12 conditions of this.13 MR. PLOCKER: Okay.14 And just for the record, there are many15 terms and conditions in Exhibit C, other than dealing16 with the tree removal and replacement, and I just want17 to state on behalf of the applicant that my client is18 bound and will agree to every one of the terms and19 conditions in here as a condition of approval, aside20 from trees, you know, there are things about21 environmental friendly appliances that must be used in22 development, amongst other things. Recycling. And I23 just wanted to, you know, say for the record that,24 all-though the board is bound by the ordinance, we25 87 certainly are bound by the Settlement Agreement and we1 do agree as a condition of approval to all the items2 listed in Exhibit C.3 MS. MCGOVERN: What's not in that exhibit4 are the specifications from the, what was it, the New5 Jersey --6 THE WITNESS: New Jersey Department

ition of approval to all the items2 listed in Exhibit C.3 MS. MCGOVERN: What's not in that exhibit4 are the specifications from the, what was it, the New5 Jersey --6 THE WITNESS: New Jersey Department of7 Agriculture.8 MS. MCGOVERN: Will you agree to the9 condition that the fence will meet those specifications?10 MR. PLOCKER: Absolutely.11 MS. MCGOVERN: Okay.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: And Mr. DeFeo will provide13 us with those specifications, please.14 THE WITNESS: I believe I have already, but15 I will be happy to resubmit them if you haven't gotten16 them.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Make sure we have them.18 MS. MCGOVERN: I want to make sure. There's19 a reference in the ordinance and Settlement Agreement or20 settlement in the design specifications to the fence but21 not the specifications themselves, so now we have that22 on the record.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran, do you have any24 questions, sir?25 88 MR. AFRAN: Well, I'm actually going to have1 about two hours of questions and that's going to prevent2 the public from going this evening. What we did earlier3 was very easily was to have the public go first, this4 way that dwindles down some of the subject areas.5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That's fine. You're6 happy, I'm happy.7 MR. AFRAN: Probably means going over to the8 next night.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We'll start and see where10 we get to.11 Ladies and gentleman, at this time I'm going12 to ask you to come up, one at a time, get identified,13 and you may ask a question of Mr. DeFeo about his14 testimony. So questions start with where, which, how,15 when, why and what. Please do not testify or bring up16 information that you would like to say, you will be17 given an opportunity to do that at a later point in the18 application process. So we're going to keep this very,19 very simple. If I ask you to, if I raise my hand to ask20 you to stop, we'll stop, we'll talk, I may ask our21 attorney to opine, and we'll go forward. So one at a22 time.23 Ma'am, please come up to the microphone.24 State your name for the record.25

23 of 80 sheets Page 89 to 92 of 203 11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM 89 THE PUBLIC: Hello. My name is Barbara1 White. I live in West Orange. If you put up SP-11, I2 believe it is, I can show you approximately where I3 live. That's the one that shows --4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm going to tell you5 what, we're going to take a ten-minute bio break.6 (Whereupon, a short recess is taken.)7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Good evening, ladies and8 gentleman, council chamber members and on zoom. Welcome9 back.10 Ma'am, you have the floor.11 Ladies and gentleman, I ask you to be quiet.12 THE PUBLIC: Can you hear me?13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes we, can.14 We want quiet. Thank you.15 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.16 My name is Barbara White. I do live in West17 Orange and I asked you to put up, I think it was SP-11,18 to give you an idea what I'm talking about. It's the19 map. That's the one.20 So I happen to live, you see the undeveloped21 properties at the top of the map, across the street of22 that. I have a question. The question was raised23 whether or not there were any other things to be24 considered when looking at the health of the forest and25 90 you cited a few things, one thing that was not cited was1 the damage that was done during Hurricane Irene and2 Hurricane Sandy. There are records that speak to the3 incredible loss of trees in New Jersey, certainly in my4 neighborhood. Before I couldn't see my neighbors house5 and after those storms I can see all of my neighbors6 houses. There were also trees that came down, you have7 no impacts during that time that I can point out to you8 and I believe one scrub trees hitting the forest itself.9 So that hasn't been taken into consideration.10 And then the second thing is actually11 related to something that happened this weekend. My12 question really is around, given what we're looking at13 in front of us, in the event of something like what's14 happening in Livingston, 192 acres were burned and15 multiple fire departments had to respond. Will the deer16 fence itself make it harder in the event that there is17 something like what happening in Livingston, to manage18 it? On Patch it was, part of the concern was a few19 roads there and they were not able to make turns both20 manpower and the apparatus. So, again, for future21 safety of the deer is that something we can look at?22 Thank you.23 THE WITNESS: To make sure I understand your24 question, you're

make turns both20 manpower and the apparatus. So, again, for future21 safety of the deer is that something we can look at?22 Thank you.23 THE WITNESS: To make sure I understand your24 question, you're asking me a question related to if25 91 there is a fire, a forest fire in this area, does the1 deer fencing impede the fire department from putting out2 the fire?3 THE PUBLIC: Absolutely.4 THE WITNESS: Am I understanding that5 correctly?6 THE PUBLIC: That's the question.7 THE WITNESS: I'm not a firefighter, nor a8 forest firefighter, so I can't speak with any expertise9 on that. There would be gates there. I could only say10 by observation if there was a fire today the fire11 department can't get in there anyway. It's all wooded,12 there's no trail in there now. So I really can't answer13 your question because I'm not a firefighter. Did I14 consider fire, is I guess the second part of your15 question, when laying out deer fencing. I did not.16 THE PUBLIC: Okay.17 And then the first part of my question was,18 did you consider, given the impact of those two main19 storms on trees in general and particularly trees in our20 neighborhood?21 THE WITNESS: I'm -- the short answer is,22 no, because I can't do a projection of major storms.23 THE PUBLIC: Excuse me, I'm asking about the24 storms that happened, Irene and Sandy. There are counts25 92 for the number of trees that were taken down or impacted1 by those storms in New Jersey and the informations2 publically available. My question is whether or not it3 was taken into consideration when you were looking at4 the change in the forest over time from a major storm5 that took place in 2011 followed by the one that took6 place in 2012 and one of those, I think it's the first7 one, actually had a tornado effect that went through8 multiple places and we lost a large amount of woods. I9 was there at the time. That's my question. Were those10 taken into consideration?11 THE WITNESS: No.12 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.13 That's it.14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.15 THE PUBLIC: Good evening.16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: State your name for the17 record, please.18 THE PUBLIC: Is this thing on?19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, you have to move a20 little closer.21 THE PUBLIC: I'm good.22 Jessica Pearson, Verona.23 Hi. Good evening.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Good evening.25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 93 to 96 of 203 24 of 80 sheets 93 THE PUBLIC: And good evening, Mr. DeFeo.1 THE WITNESS: Good evening.2 THE PUBLIC: So, just looking around here on3 my notes. All right.4 So we understand that you are, you gave us a5 bunch of your certifications earlier in your testimony,6 but you are not a forester, is that correct?7 THE WITNESS: Correct.8 THE PUBLIC: You are not a arborist, is that9 correct?10 THE WITNESS: Correct.11 THE PUBLIC: You're not a licensed tree12 expert?13 THE WITNESS: That is correct.14 THE PUBLIC: Are you an LTCO?15 THE WITNESS: No.16 THE PUBLIC: You are not.17 Then you -- you actually testified a few18 moments ago that you were on the site when Madam19 Kapferer was asking questions with three arborist's who20 apparently conducted part of your study or part of the21 study of the trees, so are you testifying on their22 behalf this evening, on their findings?23 THE WITNESS: No, I'm testifying on my24 report.25 94 THE PUBLIC: That's a finding on your report1 from their research?2 THE WITNESS: They were hired by me under my3 supervision to do the research in accordance with proper4 statistical methods. I interpreted that report, read5 the report, analyzed the report.6 THE PUBLIC: So you read the report and you7 analyzed their work and then you interpreted it?8 THE WITNESS: It's work. They work for me.9 THE PUBLIC: And you turned that into your10 own report for the township?11 THE WITNESS: Correct.12 THE PUBLIC: So you just agreed with my13 assertion, in a sense.14 THE WITNESS: No, I did not.15 THE PUBLIC: Okay.16 How did it go? Please tell us.17 THE WITNESS: I've been retained in -- I was18 retained in 20 whatever. 2019, 2018, I can't remember.19 Whatever it is, in 2019 I began negotiations, in order20 to do proper negotiations on Schedule C, which21 ultimately resulted, I hired a forester to come in --22 THE PUBLIC: Who was the forester?23 THE WITNESS: Amy S. Greene Environmental24 Services, I believe was the formal name of her company.25 95 She worked for me. Her firm sent me three foresters,1 which was my request.2 THE PUBLIC: You said arborist's.3 THE WITNESS: Foresters and arborist's --4 THE PUBLIC: You said arborist's.5 THE WITNESS: They have both certifications.6 THE PUBLIC: But they're two different7 things.8 THE WITNESS: They are different things.9 There are arborist's who understand the difference

id arborist's.5 THE WITNESS: They have both certifications.6 THE PUBLIC: But they're two different7 things.8 THE WITNESS: They are different things.9 There are arborist's who understand the difference since10 there seems to be some confusion.11 THE PUBLIC: Can we talk about that. Why12 don't you elucidate for everybody here what a forester13 does versus what an arborist does?14 THE WITNESS: Sure.15 THE PUBLIC: So that I don't have to have my16 eyes rolled at me by one of your board members. By one17 of the board members. So could you please do that.18 THE WITNESS: I'd be happy to do that. An19 arborist is a person who has been certified by the state20 of New Jersey to take care of trees. An arborist, for21 lack of a better term, is a tree doctor. They also are22 used and trained to help identify health of trees and23 they are often hired by municipalities, in fact I have24 an arborist on my own personal retainer for my own25 96 property to come inspect my trees and make sure that1 they do not have disease. They often send someone who2 they have trained, who could be a tree expert, which is3 someone who might know about the trees, a certified tree4 expert, it is a state certification. And they would go5 in and take care of the trees. My trees, for example,6 are infected by various fungi, they come and they will7 do an integrated pest management program.8 THE PUBLIC: So --9 THE WITNESS: Let me answer you question.10 So an arborist looks at trees. A forester11 is someone who is trained typically, especially in a12 forestry school, to manage forests. Many foresters work13 for the US Department of Agriculture in our national14 forests. Many foresters work for towns. Many foresters15 work for private tree companies. Foresters look at16 forest management. Typical forest management training,17 forester training to be exact, is designed around18 maximizing output of forests for harvest with maximum19 health for the forest. Old style forester training20 would create monoculture of forest because trees grow21 faster, they go in, they cut accordingly, clear cut,22 selective cut, etc. So a forester is looking to see that23 a forest can have maximum throughput or maximum output24 and can in fact create a healthy forest. In other25

25 of 80 sheets Page 97 to 100 of 203 11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM 97 words, a forester has a bigger role than an arborist. A1 arborist is more concerned to individual trees. This2 does not mean they don't know anything about forests.3 It just means they're trained more to look at specific4 trees. So the fundamental difference between arborist5 and a forester is the scope. That would be the easiest6 way I could explain it.7 THE PUBLIC: I would agree with your8 assessment of who does what and what jobs they are9 basically charged with. So thank you for that.10 So you said in your testimony earlier that11 you had three arborist's on the site?12 THE WITNESS: And foresters. They have13 multiple certifications. They are experts in14 environmental assessment of trees.15 THE PUBLIC: And so you talked kind of, you16 kind of gave us a rough overview of what, how you17 tackled this. Apparently you went in August of this18 year to do a quick reassessment, if you will, of this19 forest and health of the forest. So exactly what did20 that entail?21 THE WITNESS: This year we were asked by the22 board and by residents in town who raised the question23 specifically, have we looked at the forest since the24 initial study that was done in 2019. I have been there25 98 since, but I did bring my foresters back out, this is no1 longer Amy S. Greene, it is now called Davey2 Environmental, Amy has retired and Amy sold her company3 to Davey Environmental. They sent out one of their4 folks and me, we went through, he's an arborist,5 certified tree expert I believe and he's also a6 forester, and we walked the property, and we walked it7 for two reasons. One, I would walk it because I have to8 see it and I oversee this.9 Two, I'm a trained environmental scientist,10 so I look at a forest completely differently from a11 forester. I look at it in a more holistic standpoint12 and we walked together through there. Now, the13 forester, et al., would certainly be faster at things14 like tree identification than I would be at this point,15 all though I can still do it, he was faster. If you do16 it every day you're faster at it and I went through to17 look at the health of this forest from my environmental18 background standpoint. In other words, I see the forest19 through the trees. A forester sees the trees. I look20 at every element, from listening to the birds, from21 looking at the plants,

onmental18 background standpoint. In other words, I see the forest19 through the trees. A forester sees the trees. I look20 at every element, from listening to the birds, from21 looking at the plants, from looking at the ground, to22 looking at the geology. That's the difference in an23 environmental scientist looking at a forest or24 ecologist, which I'm also trained in. We did our25 99 assessment and we stated --1 THE PUBLIC: You walked all 120 acres?2 THE WITNESS: Yes.3 THE PUBLIC: The entire --4 THE WITNESS: 120 acres is not that big a5 property to walk in a day.6 THE PUBLIC: Okay.7 THE WITNESS: We walked the 120 acres. Did8 we look at every square inch, no. We walked the9 perimeter, we walked the property across. We looked, I10 said it hadn't changed in four years, no.11 THE PUBLIC: Is that why you didn't take --12 THE WITNESS: Five years.13 THE PUBLIC: Is that why you didn't take any14 pictures?15 THE WITNESS: You see some of the pictures16 there that I've taken.17 THE PUBLIC: I saw pictures of a different18 site and I saw one picture.19 THE WITNESS: The forest hasn't changed. I20 could take a picture there tomorrow and it would look21 just like my pictures at any time.22 THE PUBLIC: You took no pictures of the 10023 yard visibility?24 THE WITNESS: You just saw that picture.25 100 Here, I'll show you. Hang on.1 THE PUBLIC: Okay. I would like to see2 this.3 THE WITNESS: There.4 THE PUBLIC: Which one, sir?5 THE WITNESS: That's the actual site. I6 could see the trees.7 THE PUBLIC: Really. When was that taken?8 THE WITNESS: This was taken in, this might9 have been taken in 2024. I might have used a new one.10 THE PUBLIC: Really. It looks longer. The11 leaves aren't even down.12 THE WITNESS: Would you let me answer your13 question.14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am. Ma'am. Let him15 finish his statement. You asked a question. Curtesy.16 Let him finish his statement then you can ask him.17 THE PUBLIC: He said 2024, sir, and I18 rebuffed.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Unless you have proof in20 hand, he's the expert -- ma'am, there are rules here.21 THE PUBLIC: I hear you.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Let him finish.23 THE PUBLIC: I heard you, sir. I understand24 the first time.25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 101 to 104 of 203 26 of 80 sheets 101 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Good.1 THE WITNESS: I will answer your question.2 Looking back at this I knew I took pictures in 2024 but3 this is not a 2024 image. But I can tell by the chair,4 because I think the chairs been removed. The -- this is5 a fall picture and if I went there today it would look6 identical. The only difference is the trees all the way7 up here would have green leaves on them, more in line8 with this photo. This is not that site, all though I9 wouldn't expect anyone to necessarily know the10 difference in the two forests.11 THE PUBLIC: So --12 THE WITNESS: The fact is it has not13 changed.14 THE PUBLIC: So there were no, of this15 entire site walk, you chose not to capture any16 photographs of the site? Zero.17 THE WITNESS: I didn't find a need for it.18 Nothing has changed.19 THE PUBLIC: Did you name all the arborist's20 that are working with you?21 THE WITNESS: No.22 THE PUBLIC: Could you.23 THE WITNESS: Off the top of my head, no.24 I'm not certain their names are even stated. I hired25 102 Davey Environmental to walk with me and prior to that,1 Amy S. Greene. They sent staff.2 THE PUBLIC: So --3 THE WITNESS: At that time to be specific.4 THE PUBLIC: So you don't, you didn't record5 who was on the walk with you for that study?6 THE WITNESS: At the time I said, hello. We7 exchanged names. I don't remember their names.8 THE PUBLIC: Was that this past August,9 right?10 THE WITNESS: It was -- there was one11 forester with me this August. I didn't need three to do12 a walk-through survey.13 THE PUBLIC: Okay. And who was the one14 arborist?15 THE WITNESS: I don't have his name on me.16 I have him somewhere. Josh I think his name might be,17 but that's the best I remember.18 THE PUBLIC: Did you say John?19 THE WITNESS: Josh.20 THE PUBLIC: Josh.21 THE WITNESS: I think it's Josh, but don't22 quote me.23 THE PUBLIC: Okay, I won't quote you.24 On Page 2 of your submission you state that25 103 the site will be planted with approximately 2166 native1 perennial, perennial grasses, ground cover as well as2 1065 native shrubs to function as heat generators.3 Basically to provide new plant growth. Those plantings4 are occurring where?5 Can we pull that map up please, that shows6 the deer fencing on either side of the proposed7 development and the bright green area.8 THE WITNESS: SP-11, is