October 30, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

owth. Those plantings4 are occurring where?5 Can we pull that map up please, that shows6 the deer fencing on either side of the proposed7 development and the bright green area.8 THE WITNESS: SP-11, is that what you're9 talking about? Okay. Hold on.10 THE PUBLIC: Yeah, the next one. That one.11 Where on, using your pointer, can you show12 me where you're talking about all of those species are13 to be planted?14 THE WITNESS: Specifically no, because this15 is not a landscape plan. But it would be in the area16 that is white on this plan, because that is the area of17 disturbance.18 THE PUBLIC: So, okay. So you're planting19 the white area?20 THE WITNESS: Correct.21 THE PUBLIC: Not the neon green or the dark22 green fenced areas?23 THE WITNESS: Correct. Those are undisturbed24 areas, correct.25 104 THE PUBLIC: Will there be any plantings put1 in the "undisturbed" of that unfenced area?2 THE WITNESS: No, that area is undisturbed3 by definition. Additionally you would not be allowed to4 put plantings into the wetland area, that would be5 prohibited. We'd have to go in to disturb the wetland.6 So, no, this is the -- the landscape, and I don't have7 it up here, but a landscape plan will delineate8 specifically where things will be planted and it would9 be in the disturbed area.10 THE PUBLIC: Okay.11 So just answer me this, please. What is to12 prevent the deer from consuming 2166 native perennials,13 grasses, 1065 native shrubs that are unfenced and14 available for consumption by all of the deer?15 THE WITNESS: There are a number of things16 that can be --17 THE PUBLIC: I mean, before I finish that18 question. I just want to say, you stated on the record19 multiple times that anything that starts to grow in an20 area where deer are, gets eaten. So what's to prevent21 them from eating all of this stuff?22 THE WITNESS: Well, I have not looked at a23 landscape plan or made a recommendation as to deer24 protection that they could utilize within that site.25

27 of 80 sheets Page 105 to 108 of 203 11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM 105 For individual trees, for example young trees that are1 planted, there is another deer protection method which2 are used on very young trees. And it's essentially a3 plastic sleeve that protects the tree from deer. Now,4 of course they will be planting -- they won't be5 planting trees like this, but you could protect the6 trunk.7 As far as plants such as shrubs, flowers,8 perennial grasses and so forth, they have not proposed9 anything, nor have I asked for anything, because it's10 not my purview of design. There are a number of11 methodologies that can be used to help prevent deer12 browse. One of which is a nontoxic spray that deer find13 to be unpalatable. They are far from perfect, but they14 have been used successfully throughout properties in New15 Jersey. From my own study, which is my own property, I16 have it sprayed monthly and my deer browse is17 nondestructive. I still have deer browse, but it18 doesn't tend to kill what I'm growing. So there are19 those methods that could be done. I'm not saying20 they're going to be done. That's not something that's21 part of my report.22 THE PUBLIC: So with that suggestion of23 protecting the plantings, why wouldn't you propose to24 plant some trees in a protected area? Why would you25 106 completely leave reforestation out of the game plan for1 the area that you're protecting with deer fencing when2 you're making a case right now to plant things without3 deer fencing that are completely available to the deer?4 THE WITNESS: The fundamental difference in5 what you're describing is, as the Chairman asked earlier6 in testimony, are there programs where we could buy7 seedlings for that fenced area, or get free seedlings8 was the term of art used, and there are such programs9 for that and the owner may choose to do that. But it10 will take, if you noticed, within three years I'll have11 growth in there. So I'd rather spend the money on the12 deer fencing of a larger acreage then spend the money --13 THE PUBLIC: Well, have you -- I'm sorry, I14 couldn't understand a word you used. Within three years15 you'll have --16 THE WITNESS: Three years I will have17 undergrowth in that area of deer fencing natively as you18 saw from other sites that I've studied and there would19 really be no need. Now, on the other side of that same20 coin, I'm not going to

ve17 undergrowth in that area of deer fencing natively as you18 saw from other sites that I've studied and there would19 really be no need. Now, on the other side of that same20 coin, I'm not going to suggest to the applicant that you21 take 12-foot or 14-foot trees, first of all to get them22 into the undisturbed area would be difficult because23 it's not something you simply carry. Secondly, nor can24 you excavate with a shovel easily to install them. I25 107 would do, in essence, more damage planting those trees1 in that area than I would gain as benefit.2 THE PUBLIC: In which area, the fenced area?3 THE WITNESS: The fenced area or even the4 undisturbed area. By definition undisturbed means I5 don't take heavy equipment into it. And to plant larger6 trees I must do that. To plant shrubs, etc. I would7 need heavier equipment to do so and I would, I would8 disturb the area which is violative of the agreement.9 Sorry.10 THE PUBLIC: So you mentioned a couple of11 things about the four-inch DPM trees. Generally12 speaking, when we plant trees would you agree with the13 statement generally it's two-and-a-half to three-inch14 DPM trees that are planted say for street trees or a15 backyard tree when a company comes in? And I'm not16 talking deciduous trees, I'm talking shade trees, I'm17 not talking about conifers.18 THE WITNESS: Okay.19 THE PUBLIC: So generally speaking, most20 ordinances require no less than a two-and-a-half to21 three-inch --22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am. Ma'am, we're not23 talking about ordinances. We are -- listen.24 THE PUBLIC: I'm asking his opinion on what25 108 --1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, you mentioned2 ordinances --3 THE PUBLIC: You're completely interrupting4 --5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: -- we're not talking about6 --7 THE PUBLIC: I'm talking a question and it's8 really upsetting to me that you're blocking the general9 flow of Q and A here. It's very upsetting to me because10 I'm asking him. He had a chart with four-inch trees and11 he stated, he made statements about that. I'm asking12 him, when trees are planted, generally, when people13 plant trees what is the DPM of the tree?14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That's something different15 than referring to the ordinance.16 You can go ahead and answer that.17 THE PUBLIC: I wasn't referring to your18 ordinance. Okay. Thank you.19 THE WITNESS: I cannot speak to other towns20 ordinances, per se.21 THE PUBLIC:

e ordinance.16 You can go ahead and answer that.17 THE PUBLIC: I wasn't referring to your18 ordinance. Okay. Thank you.19 THE WITNESS: I cannot speak to other towns20 ordinances, per se.21 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.22 THE WITNESS: Diameter is what you're talking23 about. DPM, I don't know what that measurement is. A24 diameter of a tree -- first of all that's --25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 109 to 112 of 203 28 of 80 sheets 109 THE PUBLIC: DBH, it's the same thing.1 Diameter, breast, height.2 THE WITNESS: Yeah, but you're -- anyway, I3 won't get into a debate of tree terms.4 The diameter of a tree that is planted5 depends on what the landscaper chooses to plant. I have6 not looked at yet, other than speciation, the landscape7 plan for this site, all-though part of my charge would8 be to take a look at the species that are planted and9 help this planning board determine what's finally done10 with the landscape plan. As far as what is generally11 planted, that is totally dependent on what the applicant12 wants to plant. It could be three-inch, two-inch13 diameter trees. It could be four-inch. It could be14 six-inch. I will tell you that in research I have done15 there are some ordinances that require larger trees in16 towns, such as six-inch in a building site.17 Unfortunately as you plant larger trees you tend to have18 higher mortality of those trees. So there's a downside19 to that. You can plant it, but it makes it harder to20 grow. Bigger trees are harder to transplant or harder21 to plant in general. Having said that, I can't answer22 your question as to what will actually be planted by23 size on this site.24 THE PUBLIC: I wasn't asking that.25 110 You were talking about the forest. Can you1 show the chart?2 THE WITNESS: Yup.3 THE PUBLIC: That shows the different sized4 trees that you found on the site.5 THE WITNESS: Okay. Bear with me.6 THE PUBLIC: Maybe I should have led with7 that and I wouldn't have gotten in trouble.8 THE WITNESS: That's what you're looking at?9 Is that what you're looking at.10 THE PUBLIC: Yes. Okay. Go ahead, what's11 your question, sorry.12 THE PUBLIC: Okay. So what's the arrow13 pointing to, please explain?14 THE WITNESS: The arrow is pointing to the15 fact that during the 2019 tree survey we, in the study16 plots, found no trees or saplings I should say, since17 it's not a tree below four-inches, no saplings smaller18 than four-inches in diameter in the study plots.19 THE PUBLIC: How many four-inch trees did20 you find?21 THE WITNESS: Approximately 55, 58 plus or22 minus.23 THE PUBLIC: 58?24 THE WITNESS: It's not exact, it's a25 111 histogram. It's giving you an approximation.1 THE PUBLIC: This is, I'm sorry, this isn't2 the totality of trees on the site?3 THE WITNESS: No, it's in the

?24 THE WITNESS: It's not exact, it's a25 111 histogram. It's giving you an approximation.1 THE PUBLIC: This is, I'm sorry, this isn't2 the totality of trees on the site?3 THE WITNESS: No, it's in the study plots, as4 I explained. This is a statistical --5 THE PUBLIC: I'm sorry, say that again.6 THE WITNESS: It is in study plots, as I have7 explained. This is a statistical study, not an8 absolute. We don't go into a forest and count every9 single tree on 120 acres. You statistically analyze the10 forest using acceptable means of statistical analysis by11 study plots. That's what was done here. This is all12 that is.13 THE PUBLIC: So how long does it take for a14 sapling to become a four-inch tree?15 THE WITNESS: Totally dependant on living16 conditions. Species -- depends on species, depends on17 weather.18 THE PUBLIC: What about oaks, because19 everyone know oaks?20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, how much what?21 THE PUBLIC: Oak trees.22 THE WITNESS: It depends on growing23 conditions, depends on weather, it depends on how much24 water it receives. Is it growing in a rocky25 112 environment, top soil rich environment, is it getting1 plenty of moisture. I can look at a tree ring of a 1002 year old tree and see it grow infinitesimally one year,3 and this may be one of those years, or I can see a very4 large spurt of growth. Hybridized trees I could see5 half-inch a year in diameter for certain hybridized6 species. I can see hybridized species grow three-inches7 a year. But native trees, it depends. There's no8 answer to that question. Nature doesn't work that way.9 THE PUBLIC: I didn't mean to upset you, I'm10 just asking questions because you seem to show a large11 amount of trees that basically are not that big in this12 small area that seems to be chosen randomly without13 reason or rhyme. I'm not really sure why this small14 swath --15 THE WITNESS: You view a statistical survey16 randomly or else you institute bias and to avoid bias17 you pick random plots. In this case the random plots18 were focused on the area of disturbance that we were19 given as projected areas of disturbance and the plots20 were then randomized within that. You don't -- you21 purposely do not do a nonrandom study if you expect22 statically valid results of a tree survey.23 THE PUBLIC: On Page 24, if you go to Page24 24 or slide 24, whatever you want to call it.25

29 of 80 sheets Page 113 to 116 of 203 11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM 113 THE WITNESS: Okay.1 Can you tell me what it's about, please? I2 apologize, they're not numbered.3 THE WITNESS: It's beyond that.4 THE PUBLIC: Wait.5 THE WITNESS: Back?6 THE PUBLIC: Hold on.7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Slide 24 is the tree8 removal calculation.9 THE WITNESS: This one?10 THE PUBLIC: I might jump around a little11 bit, I'm sorry.12 THE WITNESS: Is that what you're looking13 at?14 THE PUBLIC: No. You said something about15 you guaranteeing that 77 percent of the trees will be16 preserved forever.17 THE WITNESS: This is 77 percent of the18 properties.19 THE PUBLIC: No, no, it was a guarantee.20 It's not on that, it's in the middle of the report.21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Hang on.22 THE PUBLIC: Yeah, this one.23 THE WITNESS: This?24 THE PUBLIC: Are you going on the record25 114 sir, on behalf of the applicant, to tell us that that1 will be Green Acres property or something?2 THE WITNESS: First of all, I do not speak3 for the applicant, I speak for the planning board, so I4 cannot speak for the applicant. What I am saying to you5 is there is an ordinance and an agreement, I do not -- I6 am not party to the ordinance. I had nothing to do with7 the ordinance per se. I am saying to you that based on8 my understanding those trees are not going to be Green9 Acre property. This is going to be private property, to10 the best of my understanding. It will remain private11 property with restrictions on development as per12 testimony I heard earlier but I can't speak to that with13 authority, it's out of my purview.14 THE PUBLIC: So, okay. It won't be Green15 Acres unless the applicant comes forth and says that.16 I'm not sure how you can say that trees will be here17 forever because according to you the trees are all18 dying. I don't understand, I mean you're saying that19 the forest is in a unhealthy condition. So which is it,20 I don't really understand this.21 THE WITNESS: Okay. I am not God. I cannot22 preserve trees for any length of time by my personal23 will. If I could I would.24 THE PUBLIC: Okay.25 115 THE WITNESS: But I will say to you that1 this is talking about the fact that the forest will be2 developed. Now, with the fencing, what I can say is3 this forest has, as I answered to one of the board4 members earlier, has a much greater statistical5 probability of growing new trees and therefore

developed. Now, with the fencing, what I can say is3 this forest has, as I answered to one of the board4 members earlier, has a much greater statistical5 probability of growing new trees and therefore becoming6 a healthy forest again. In other words, we're giving it7 the best chance that we can to become a healthy forest8 by keeping out over browsing, which is recognized as one9 of the great risks to our forest in the state of New10 Jersey and the Mid-Atlantic region where we have11 development by others than me, and therefore we will12 preserve forever, perhaps a poor choice of words, but13 that means is that they won't be cut down.14 THE PUBLIC: Okay.15 So when you say trees preserved, can you go16 a couple slides back.17 THE WITNESS: Back. Okay.18 THE PUBLIC: Yeah, please.19 THE WITNESS: Bear with me. That one?20 THE PUBLIC: No. It's more with data on it.21 It might have been forward, I'm sorry.22 THE WITNESS: That's okay. I don't have23 them numbered, that's my fault.24 THE PUBLIC: Stop.25 116 THE WITNESS: That one?1 THE PUBLIC: Yeah.2 THE WITNESS: Okay.3 THE PUBLIC: So when you say tree loss, you4 mean tree removal?5 THE WITNESS: Yes.6 THE PUBLIC: Number 2?7 THE WITNESS: Yes.8 THE PUBLIC: Not just loss, as in trees that9 just keeled over and died. Tree loss as in, we are10 actively removing them. Yes?11 THE WITNESS: This is the potential maximum12 tree removal, correct.13 THE PUBLIC: Okay.14 The 279 trees listed on Sheet 29 of Mr.15 Anderson's plans.16 THE WITNESS: I don't have that plan, but go17 ahead.18 THE PUBLIC: Well, you keep citing 279 trees19 that are going to be planted in your report.20 THE WITNESS: Yes.21 THE PUBLIC: 279 under number 3. So my22 question is, and you write, all native species, does23 that refer and regard the list that is on sheet, what24 did I just say, 29 of Mr. Anderson's engineering plans?25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 117 to 120 of 203 30 of 80 sheets 117 THE WITNESS: That comes from my review of1 the landscape plan that I last observed and, yes, it's2 Mr. Anderson's plan. I don't have that with me is what3 I'm saying, in front of me.4 THE PUBLIC: Will you supply these species5 to the applicant as a suggestive measure, you know,6 however you want to state it?7 THE WITNESS: You mean as native species?8 THE PUBLIC: Well, I'm not recalling if they9 were all native species. That's not what I'm10 questioning.11 THE WITNESS: I don't understand your12 question.13 THE PUBLIC: My question is, was it your14 suggestion as to the species --15 THE WITNESS: No.16 THE PUBLIC: -- that appear on that list?17 THE WITNESS: No, the applicant provided18 those species for me to review.19 THE PUBLIC: Okay. And the list at the end20 of your report, the third page from last.21 THE WITNESS: This?22 THE PUBLIC: Keep going. At the end. That23 is the end?24 THE WITNESS: That end?25 118 THE PUBLIC: Oh, you have a cute little1 thing from Jersey Gardens attached to your report.2 THE WITNESS: Oh, you're talking about my3 written report not my slide presentation. Are you4 referencing the October 16 report? I don't know. I5 don't know where I'm looking.6 THE PUBLIC: A cute little thing from Jersey7 Gardens. It was, which is one of my favorite --8 THE WITNESS: That's my written report9 that's on the website.10 THE PUBLIC: These lists of species.11 THE WITNESS: You're referencing my -- let12 me make sure I understand. You're referencing my13 October 16, 2024 report, which is on the website.14 THE PUBLIC: Isn't that what we're15 discussing right now?16 THE WITNESS: I'm not questioning you, I17 just want to make sure I'm looking at the right18 document.19 THE PUBLIC: Yes, I am.20 THE WITNESS: Go ahead.21 THE PUBLIC: Yeah, you have a list here, it22 says, small tree, shrubs and vines.23 THE WITNESS: Yes. I gave this as a place24 to start for discussion, yes.25 119 THE PUBLIC: So this is not -- this really1 has nothing to do with what may or may not be included2 in the applicants plantings list, this is just your3 suggestion for plant, native plantings, is that correct?4 THE WITNESS: This is a suggestion for a5 point of discussion. If they wish to review and see6 more native plants that they could pick from. It's not7 meant to be an exhaustive list.8 THE PUBLIC: Okay. I mean, because

s is a suggestion for a5 point of discussion. If they wish to review and see6 more native plants that they could pick from. It's not7 meant to be an exhaustive list.8 THE PUBLIC: Okay. I mean, because on this9 list of small trees there are only 2 trees on this whole10 list. I'm just saying, not many trees and it seems that11 trees are at --12 THE WITNESS: Again, this is just meant to13 be a point of discussion, not meant to be the species14 that would be selected for that site per se. It's meant15 to give the applicant more information to pick from.16 THE PUBLIC: Quick question on the area that17 you referenced in pictures and you talked about a little18 bit with the deer fencing that's not here in West19 Orange.20 THE WITNESS: We don't have any on site, but21 go ahead. You're talking about this. Tell me where you22 want me to stop.23 THE PUBLIC: Well, you know, the one where24 you were showing off all the new growth.25 120 THE WITNESS: Well, that could be almost any1 of them. Is this one acceptable?2 THE PUBLIC: New tree growth perhaps.3 THE WITNESS: You mean this one?4 THE PUBLIC: Is that a new -- are those5 three new trees?6 THE WITNESS: Some of these are new trees.7 They didn't grow within three years, they got bigger in8 three years.9 THE PUBLIC: Are we inside the fence or10 outside the fence?11 THE WITNESS: Those are inside the fence.12 THE PUBLIC: And those three new trees13 inside the fence or outside?14 THE WITNESS: Those three trees are inside.15 They are not within three years, as I referenced in my16 testimony. I'm talking about this growth. The17 undergrowth coming in within three years, not a tree of18 that size.19 THE PUBLIC: And then the pictures that we20 just went flying by as well, how do you know or do you21 know for a fact that no seedlings were planted as well22 as utilized the utilization of deer fencing in those23 particular parks?24 THE WITNESS: In these particular --25