October 30, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

n in the sunlight with not a lot of canopy21 cover.22 THE WITNESS: That's correct. That23 particular image, that's correct.24 THE PUBLIC: So my question is, is it really25 139 an apples to apples fair comparison about what will1 happen when we're talking about a heavily canopied2 forest versus an open air --3 THE WITNESS: Here's a heavily canopied4 forest. Here's a heavily canopied forest. So these are5 all deer fenced and show you that within -- that's about6 nine years to give context.7 THE PUBLIC: So deer fence there might -- my8 question is --9 THE WITNESS: Look here, this is a heavily10 canopied forest.11 THE PUBLIC: And those trees are new or the12 undergrowth is new?13 THE WITNESS: All of this, this is not.14 This is nine years, you have vines in here, you have15 young seedlings. This would have been here already,16 this would be typical of, by the way, the property, this17 is not that property obviously.18 THE PUBLIC: I see it slopes down.19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, this is a different20 thing, but you can see that within nine years I have21 young trees growing in there. Now, what will drive22 that, which goes to your question and it's a good23 question by the way. You did well in Botany 101.24 THE PUBLIC: I liked that class.25 140 THE WITNESS: The area here, I will get much1 more rapid undergrowth because I have more sun. That's2 your point, if I get you correctly. However, it doesn't3 matter whether I have a mature forest or not because I4 still get sunlight and trees are rather amazing in how5 they can come up with the right amount of light, so to6 speak. Those that survive will grow in that tall7 canopied forest. It's not that dark in there. Even8 though it's a mature canopy, it's fairly bright, which9 means there's enough light for these trees to grow.10 That's a very good observation on your point and you can11 see that even in this one. This is just a field that's12 now been deer fenced. But you can see here and I show13 you this only because, yes, is it an open field, you're14 correct.15 THE PUBLIC: Does that matter to your three16 to five-year estimate? In other words --17 THE WITNESS: Yes.18 THE PUBLIC: -- with a canopied forest --19 THE WITNESS: You won't see this in three20 years, that's not what I'm trying to tell you. What I'm21 trying to say is in three years or so, this is one year22 -- sorry, let me go forward. I'm going to blow

ITNESS: You won't see this in three20 years, that's not what I'm trying to tell you. What I'm21 trying to say is in three years or so, this is one year22 -- sorry, let me go forward. I'm going to blow this23 machine up again, that's my problem. This is one year24 of deer fencing in an open field. Before that there25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 141 to 144 of 203 36 of 80 sheets 141 was, this thing had been heavily browsed. That's nine1 years of a completely mature forest like this one that2 we're talking -- nine years like this forest that we3 have here of growth. So it's undergrowth and young4 trees coming back into play because to go to your exact5 point, within the deer fencing I can grow young trees.6 I'll get seedlings, I'll get saplings in nine years.7 Different species but I'll get them.8 THE PUBLIC: I do have one last question, I9 promise you. This is a really dumb question.10 THE WITNESS: There's no such thing.11 THE PUBLIC: Really like Botany 000.12 THE WITNESS: Okay.13 THE PUBLIC: Or Deer 000.14 If the forest is so unhealthy, and they're15 eating everything and everything is eaten, why is there16 still so many deer back there?17 THE WITNESS: You have two questions there18 that are very good. First, let me make it very clear.19 When I called the forest unhealthy, this is not to say,20 with the exception of some of these species that I21 stated earlier, which are currently infected like beech22 and ash. What I am saying is it, on a long-term basis,23 from an environmental standpoint, I have a forest that24 cannot regenerate itself and therefore as more trees die25 142 the forest will become sparse over time and I want to be1 clear again, when I talk the life of trees, I could be2 going out 200 years in some cases but not all trees live3 that long. The question was asked earlier on, on that4 same premise, the health of the forest, what if we get a5 hurricane. That forest is going to open up very quickly6 if we have a very bad storm potentially, depending on7 how the storm hits, what trees get thrown down. The8 point in that is that what happens with the deer now,9 why are they in there, I'm not saying they don't eat10 anything, because the trees are dropping seeds. The11 plants are dropping seeds, the animals are bringing12 seeds, they grow. The deer go there to eat them. The13 other thing the deer will do there is nest -- not nest14 but they will rest and sleep because they're15 undisturbed.16 THE PUBLIC: And wouldn't that continue in17 perpetuity though?18 THE WITNESS: For the unfenced areas that's19 very possible that will. In that unfenced area that is20 possible. But as I also stated, it's also possible that21 with the regrowth in the deer fenced areas and

TNESS: For the unfenced areas that's19 very possible that will. In that unfenced area that is20 possible. But as I also stated, it's also possible that21 with the regrowth in the deer fenced areas and the22 abundance of new seed and new plants that could come23 through, there is a chance, I can't tell you it's24 guaranteed of course, but there is a chance that that25 143 abundance of transfer of seed from the fenced areas to1 the unfenced areas might produce enough growth that we2 can reach some basis, some balance and new growth will3 be there. Will I tell you that will occur, I can't4 promise you that. But it is possible that will occur.5 It is possible and studies have shown that the invasive6 species when you have enough native species competing7 lose. Which I would, if you would've asked me that 408 years ago I would have not agreed with that, but studies9 have been done to show that that works and I'm grateful10 for that research. But that is what I'm suggesting. I11 cannot guarantee that in that unfenced area the deer12 won't continue to do damage in perpetuity. I have no13 way of projecting what they will do.14 THE PUBLIC: Not even necessarily that.15 What I meant in perpetuity is, you said they do drop16 seeds and then it grows and the deer do eat them.17 THE WITNESS: And maybe they stay there for18 that reason.19 THE PUBLIC: And seeds will drop again, the20 deer will eat them and everybody will live happily,21 right?22 THE WITNESS: It would be wonderful if it23 worked that way. I vote for it.24 THE PUBLIC: Kind of a form of stasis,25 144 right?1 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. In a perfectly2 healthy -- you're absolutely right. You did very well3 in botany. In a perfectly healthy forest that's4 essentially what happens.5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm going to certify you6 in Botany 101.7 THE PUBLIC: I want to be board certified.8 I'll be the next expert hopefully.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you very much.10 Appreciate your time.11 Come up to the mic. State you name for the12 record, please.13 THE PUBLIC: Question about the pictures.14 Rachel Klein, Howell Drive.15 Couple questions specifically about the area16 to the east of the ridge line.17 THE WITNESS: Here?18 THE PUBLIC: Yeah.19 THE WITNESS: I have one question, you're20 not overseeing the actual, the putting up this deer21 fencing, right?22 THE WITNESS: That will depend on when that23 gets done and whether I'm

UBLIC: Yeah.19 THE WITNESS: I have one question, you're20 not overseeing the actual, the putting up this deer21 fencing, right?22 THE WITNESS: That will depend on when that23 gets done and whether I'm still under retainer, but the24 plan is to have someone oversee the deer fencing going25

37 of 80 sheets Page 145 to 148 of 203 11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM 145 up, yes.1 THE PUBLIC: How many gates do they plan on2 putting in there?3 THE WITNESS: How many?4 THE PUBLIC: Gates.5 THE WITNESS: That hasn't been finalized yet,6 but generally I would expect one or maybe two and they7 would be up here. That would be the plan if they want8 people in this area. I haven't discussed this with9 them. This is pretty steep.10 THE PUBLIC: I know. The gates, you see11 there's a sewer line that goes through.12 THE WITNESS: Yeah, the sewer line is right13 here.14 THE PUBLIC: Yeah. So the sewer line is15 under investigation right now by the county and the16 state, so you can't block it. Like it's got to be17 accessible.18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, as far as I understand,19 that's true, but I can't testify to that. But I20 understand there's a sewer line and they have to deal21 with that.22 THE PUBLIC: Is that orange line a sewer23 line also?24 THE WITNESS: No, no, sorry. That's my25 146 line. That is trying to show you, I did this in a1 earlier map. This is the limit of the ridge here, so2 it's just trying to show that this is the, and believe3 me this is not to scale, bear with me on this, I'm not4 an architect.5 THE PUBLIC: I can tell, it's a little --6 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it's a little squiggly,7 my hands not that firm. This is showing that basically8 any water that falls on this side of the line is going9 to go this way and any water that falls on that side of10 the line is going to go that way.11 THE PUBLIC: Okay.12 THE WITNESS: Think of it as a continental13 divide.14 THE PUBLIC: I wrote my questions down and15 two hours past, so I need a minute.16 So you said you walked the property but17 you're not that familiar with the east. There's vernal18 water in the east.19 THE WITNESS: In here?20 THE PUBLIC: Yeah.21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. There's some, yes.22 THE PUBLIC: And you're not going to be23 putting any of the fencing into it, right? Because it24 goes pretty much down to Mayfair Drive, which the fence25 147 looks like it goes to.1 THE WITNESS: You know, again, this is a2 conceptual layout with them.3 THE PUBLIC: So it may not be that big?4 THE WITNESS: It may be. Vernal ponds, I5 have to look at the regulations. I would have to defer6 to the planner for that because I'm not going to quote7 on that. But typically if they, again, the posts don't8 have to be perfect in

ponds, I5 have to look at the regulations. I would have to defer6 to the planner for that because I'm not going to quote7 on that. But typically if they, again, the posts don't8 have to be perfect in alignment. So you might be on9 either side of that and they'll have to work on that.10 THE PUBLIC: Yeah.11 THE WITNESS: The goal is not to disturb12 this.13 THE PUBLIC: But it's a pretty nice space.14 Also there's things like milkweed on the15 northern side, a lot of it, that's protected too. And16 you're fence, I know it's your, just a rendering, but it17 also kind of goes right through that. So you're going18 to have to come more south to avoid --19 THE WITNESS: I mean, if it has to go into20 the milkweed area, truthfully botanically I'm not21 worried about few a milkweed plants are disturbed by a22 post. We can collect the seeds and redisperse them.23 The good news is growing back in there they'll have a24 better chance of surviving.25 148 THE PUBLIC: Out of curiosity, if three to1 five years it doesn't regenerate, like you're hoping it2 will, is there any plan for what we're going to do when3 you, you know, look back on this and say, oh, the deer4 fence didn't work?5 THE WITNESS: I can't, again, guarantee6 anything in terms of growth in an area obviously, but I7 would say to you, I have yet to read any studies of deer8 fencing that say it doesn't work and you don't get9 regrowth. So this would become a first.10 THE PUBLIC: Sorry, I lost my question.11 Sorry, if I think of it I'll come back. Sorry. If I12 find my question I'll come back. Sorry.13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.14 Come right up. State your name for the15 record, sir.16 THE PUBLIC: Patrick Laterza, L-A-T-E-R-Z-A.17 I live in Verona.18 So I know we've gone over this a lot, but19 I'm going to go back to it. The math of the 212 tree20 credit. So -- per acre credit. So how are you coming21 to the credit of 212 trees in the deer fenced area? Are22 we saying you're going to expect twice as many trees to23 grow in that area?24 THE WITNESS: No. The tree credit is based25

11/06/2024 03:21:43 PM Page 149 to 152 of 203 38 of 80 sheets 149 on the original tree survey, which statistically showed1 density of tree growth per acre in the area in a ring.2 What I did was take the highest density of tree growth3 per acre, especially when first looking at it -- sorry.4 Looking at the disturbed area to show the maximum5 potential loss of trees. However, as a matter of equity6 I had to use then that same calculation, which is what I7 did when calculating the credit per acre of area fenced8 and the reason that I did that, as I stated, is to9 enhance and encourage more acreage being deer fenced to10 encourage greater forest growth. Because there is a11 cost factor to each acre of that deer fencing going in.12 And that, I don't have an exact cost because there is no13 exact estimate in front of us from a fence company, so14 we don't know the cost, but I know it to be expensive.15 So the idea was, hey, I want to encourage you to do more16 deer fencing to allow for forest growth. I am pleased,17 especially in the steep slope area for a lot of reasons.18 One, more plants, as I stated, absorb more water,19 therefore I use the 212 for that as well.20 THE PUBLIC: Okay.21 So I'll come back to part of that. But22 wouldn't that then be the assumption that all the other23 trees are going to die?24 THE WITNESS: No.25 150 THE PUBLIC: Well, if you're giving credit1 for the exact number of trees that are there already,2 right? You're saying, I understand it's statistical, I3 get that. So you're saying that you're just giving4 credit for the exact trees that are there?5 THE WITNESS: I'm giving credit for the trees6 that currently exist, yes.7 THE PUBLIC: Yeah. So then the other8 assumption is every other trees going to die. So9 instead of saying they're getting credit for --10 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I don't understand11 what you mean by that assumptions?12 THE PUBLIC: If your only getting credit for13 trees that exist in the deer fence that means all the14 other trees are going to die.15 THE WITNESS: No. This is a --16 THE PUBLIC: If you're giving them credit17 for that, you're giving extra credit for trees that are18 there.19 THE WITNESS: Okay. I think I see the20 question and I think I see the cross here and I'll try21 to answer best I can.22 THE PUBLIC: Please.23 THE WITNESS: Using the credit for trees in24 the fenced area is to say I'm giving you the

e the20 question and I think I see the cross here and I'll try21 to answer best I can.22 THE PUBLIC: Please.23 THE WITNESS: Using the credit for trees in24 the fenced area is to say I'm giving you the equivalent25 151 as if you planted. In this area, that is in the white1 or disturbed area, we're saying, again, using 212 trees2 per acre, that there's a good likelihood that all these3 trees that currently exist in there are going to come4 out. We don't know they all will yet, but I'm going to5 say they are for purposes of saying the highest number6 of trees that can be removed. That does not mean that7 these trees in this ugly green that I selected are going8 to die, it simply means I'm not giving them credit for9 it which in theory I could have in the negotiation but I10 don't, I only give them credit for the area here. I'm11 not saying these trees are going to die. These trees12 have as good a likelihood of living as any other tree in13 town. But there's -- so I'm not presuming they're going14 to die. I hope they don't die.15 THE PUBLIC: But you are because you're16 giving them credit against trees being cut down. So17 you're giving them double credit in areas that the deer18 fence is. So you're saying -- so mathematically you're19 basically saying there's twice as many trees in that20 area there than anywhere else?21 THE WITNESS: No, I'm saying there is the22 same density of trees -- in the calculation what the23 conclusion is, is that the same density of trees exist24 here as exists here. Ergo giving credit for every25 152 density of tree here for every acre of 212 trees if you1 deer fence it to offset the 212 trees per acre that I'm2 saying you're going to cut down to build this building3 or these buildings.4 THE PUBLIC: But giving credit for trees5 that already exist does not offset trees being cut down?6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Sir, I'm going to stop7 this.8 THE PUBLIC: How does -- I will ask it as a9 question.10 How do trees -- how does giving credit11 offset trees being cut down?12 THE WITNESS: Good question. The answer is13 that we know I'm not getting regeneration in this14 forest. So to maximize regeneration of the forest,15 which will, from my hypothesis and we hope to be as I've16 observed in other areas, if the deer allow it we will17 see tree growth spreading into these other undisturbed18 areas as this area becomes more densely populated. It19 is a

nd we hope to be as I've16 observed in other areas, if the deer allow it we will17 see tree growth spreading into these other undisturbed18 areas as this area becomes more densely populated. It19 is a negotiating tool to encourage the installation of20 high cost fencing by giving that credit. Otherwise all21 I would say is, all right, maybe I would put more trees22 in here which does nothing to help the forest overall.23 THE PUBLIC: So then how long would it take24 for the growth to, in the, the undergrowth to offset the25