January 29, 2025 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

1 of 57 sheets Page 1 to 4 of 143 02/13/2025 11:25:53 AM 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 TOWNSHIP OF WEST ORANGE DEPARTMENT OF PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 29, 2025 6:30 P.M. RE; PB-24-01 WEST ESSEX HIGHLANDS, INC. BOARD MEMBERS: ROBERT BAGOFF, Chairman JERRY GUARINO, Vice Chairman SUSAN McCARTNEY, Mayor WILLIAM WILKES II JOHN R. CARDOZA (Alternate 1) KEN ALPER SUSAN SCARPA, Councilwoman JOHN HESS, Engineer GERARD M. HAIZEL, Planner JAMILET BAQUERIZO VITE, Board Secretary GENIECE GARY-ADAMS, Zoning Official JOSEPH FAGAN, Zoom Moderator WINTESSES: MARK SEEL, Geological & Geothechnical Engineer JOHN McDONOUGH, Planner FISHMAN COURT REPORTING AGENCY 89 HEADQUARTERS PLAZA NORTH 4 SPEEDWELL AVENUE, SUITE 1440 MORRISTOWN, NEW JERSEY 07960 (973) 285-5331 - FAX - (732) 605-9391 2 A P P E A R A N C E S :1 2 3 H U T T , S H I M A N O W I T Z & P L O C K E R , E S Q S . B Y B R Y A N D . P L O C K E R , E S Q .4 B p l o c k e r @ h u t t s h i m . c o m 4 5 9 A M B O Y A V E N U E5 W O O D B R I D G E , N E W J E R S E Y 0 7 0 9 5 A p p e a r i n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e A p p l i c a n t6 7 G A C C I O N E & P O M A C O , E S Q S . B Y D I A N A P . M c G O V E R N , E S Q .8 O N E B O L A N D D R I V E , S U I T E 1 0 2 W E S T O R A N G E , N E W J E R S E Y 0 7 0 5 29 A p p e a r i n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e B o a r d 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 2 I N D E X O F E X H I B I T S 3 4 E X H I B I T D E S C R I P T I O N P A G E 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 C H A I R M A N B A G O F F : W e ' r e n o w u p t o1 a p p l i c a t i o n P B - 2 4 - 0 1 W e s t E s s e x H i g h l a n d s , I n c , B l o c k2 1 7 9 L o t 3 2 Z o n e I H - 1 W a r n e r R o a d . T h e a p p l i c a t i o n3 p r o p o s e s t o d e v e l o p a 4 9 6 u n i t i n c l u s i o n a r y m u l t i f a m i l y4 r e s i d e n t i a l d e v e l o p m e n t o n a v a c a n t 1 2 0 - a c r e p r o p e r t y i n5 t h e n o r t h w e s t c o r n e r o f t h e T o w n s h i p .6 M r . P l o c k e r , f o r t h e a p p l i c a n t .7 M R . P L O C K E R : G o o d e v e n i n g , C h a i r m a n B a g o f f .8 B r i a n P l o c k e r o f t h e f i r m H u t t , S h i m a n o w i t z & P l o c k e r ,9 h e r e o n b e h a l f o f t h e a p p l i c a n t , W e s t E s s e x H i g h l a n d s ,10 L L C

f f .8 B r i a n P l o c k e r o f t h e f i r m H u t t , S h i m a n o w i t z & P l o c k e r ,9 h e r e o n b e h a l f o f t h e a p p l i c a n t , W e s t E s s e x H i g h l a n d s ,10 L L C . O k a y .11 J u s t b e f o r e w e s t a r t t o n i g h t , I u n d e r s t a n d t h a t12 t h e o b j e c t o r s a t t o r n e y , M r . A f r a n , i s i l l , a n d w i l l n o t13 b e h e r e . I k n o w w e h a d s o m e c o m m u n i c a t i o n . I w i l l j u s t14 c o n f i r m f o r t h e b o a r d , h i s g r o u p a n d M r . A f r a n , i f h e ' s15 w a t c h i n g , h o p e y o u f e e l b e t t e r a n d t o t h e e x t e n t w e n e e d16 t o b r i n g a n y w i t n e s s b a c k t o n i g h t f o r c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n ,17 w e w i l l d o s o . W e j u s t d o n ' t k n o w w h e n t h a t m a y b e . W e18 m a y h a v e t o w o r k t h e s c h e d u l e a l i t t l e b i t , b u t w e w i l l19 a g r e e t o d o t h a t20 C H A I R M A N B A G O F F : T h a n k y o u , M r . P l o c k e r .21 M R . P L O C K E R : A l l r i g h t .22 T h e a p p l i c a n t w o u l d l i k e t o c a l l M a r k S e e l .23 M r . S e e l - - y o u h a v e t o s w e a r h i m i n .24 M S . M C G O V E R N : Y e s .25

02/13/2025 11:25:53 AM Page 5 to 8 of 143 2 of 57 sheets 5 Could you put your full name on the record.1 MR. SEEl: Mark Seel.2 MS. MCGOVERN: S-E-E-L, correct?3 MR. SEEL: That is correct.4 MS. MCGOVERN: Do swear or affirm to tell5 the truth and nothing but the truth so help you God.6 MR. SEEL: I do.7 M A R K S E E L, having been duly sworn8 under oath testifies as follows:9 Thank you, Mr. Seel.10 Q. If you would just offer your credentials for the11 board. Tell them in what respect you're testifying12 tonight and give them a little bit about your13 educational background and experience.14 Sure. Thank you. I have over 30 years of15 A. experience in geological and geotechnical engineering16 throughout the United States and overseas. I have a17 bachelor's degree from the Colorado School of Mines --18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Can you talk into the19 microphone, sir.20 I have a bachelor's geological degree from21 A. Colorado School of Mines and a masters degree in22 engineering, environmental/civil engineering from23 Stevens Institute of Technology.24 Over 30 years of experience working throughout25 6 New Jersey as well as the rest of the United States and1 overseas.2 Projects that I worked on, I attended project3 development areas, small scale, large scale residential,4 retail, industrial, commercial, energy power, all areas5 of infrastructure within the building environment and6 specializing in geotechnical engineering. I focus on7 development and supervision of geotechnical8 investigations, geological investigations as well as9 interpretation of data and the development of solutions10 and recommendations for development of grounds which11 would include stabilization of slopes, etc.12 And you're license in New Jersey?13 Q. I am licensed in New Jersey as well as a dozen14 A. other states both in geology and civil engineering.15 And your license is in good standing?16 Q. Correct.17 A. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Thank you.18 Do any members of the board have any questions?19 Seeing none, we will accept Mr. Seel as a licensed20 geotechnical expert in the State of New Jersey.21 MR. PLOCKER: Okay. Thank you very much.22 Mr. Seel, I'm going to turn it over to you. Can23 Q. you just initially explain to the board what you were24 retained to do by the applicant, what you did, and what25 7 your findings were?1 Yes. So I was retained, or our firm was retained2 A. to basically assess

initially explain to the board what you were24 retained to do by the applicant, what you did, and what25 7 your findings were?1 Yes. So I was retained, or our firm was retained2 A. to basically assess whether or not Building D, which is3 at the top of the slope, if it's safe to build at the4 top of that slope. And so what we had done to evaluate5 that condition is we did a subsurface investigation that6 consisted of drilling four soil borings and some rock7 borings as well as some other additional test pits to8 evaluate the ground conditions throughout the slope, at9 the top of the slope where Building D is located as well10 as further down the slope to the east. We ran some11 laboratory tests to determine certain soil rock12 parameters, strike parameters and we ran a slope13 stability analysis using our software program to14 evaluate the ground conditions. What we found in our15 investigation was that the soil profile is generally16 very dense and it's overlying a relatively hard and --17 relatively hard rock and subject conditions at the time18 of the investigation were dry.19 The slope itself is fairly densely vegetated as20 perhaps well understood, which include significant tree21 cover as well. And we found that this, this type of22 soil profile and the generally shallow slope, which is23 on order of between 10 and 17 degrees from horizontal,24 so, again, relatively flat, is inherently stable given25 8 the strength and materials that are involved in our1 analysis. And we found that, that, that they are2 inherently stable, both under existing condition and3 there was no change when we analyzed the condition where4 Building D is put in place at the top of that slope.5 There's the -- our analysis proved or showed us that the6 slope is both inherently stable in existing condition as7 well as the proposed future condition.8 Okay.9 Q. And just for the record Mr. Seel, we did file10 with the board a report from Langan Engineering, there's11 a executive summary letter dated January 14, 202512 followed by a more comprehensive report dated January13 14, 2025. I just wanted to confirm that, that report14 was prepared by you and/or your supervision with Lagan?15 That is correct.16 A. Okay.17 Q. And you rely on that report today and support18 it's contents, data that's contained therein in the19 conclusions?20 That correct.21 A. Okay.22 Q. MR. PLOCKER: I have

That is correct.16 A. Okay.17 Q. And you rely on that report today and support18 it's contents, data that's contained therein in the19 conclusions?20 That correct.21 A. Okay.22 Q. MR. PLOCKER: I have nothing further for Mr.23 Seel.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.25

3 of 57 sheets Page 9 to 12 of 143 02/13/2025 11:25:53 AM 9 So we'll go around the board.1 Mayor McCartney, do you have any questions2 for the professional, Mr. Seel, on his testimony?3 MAYOR MCcARTNEY: Thank you for being here,4 because that was one of my major concerns, I was talking5 to our engineer about that slope. The Township had6 adopted a steep slope ordinance in 2001, so we're7 saddling this applicant with that ordinance and I wanted8 some assurances about the stability of that slope. So I9 guess we'll dig further into this, no pun intended.10 Thank you.11 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, Mayor13 McCartney.14 Vice Chairman Guarino, do you have any15 questions on Mr. Seel's testimony?16 VICE CHAIRMAN GUARINO: Not at this time,17 Mr. Chairman.18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Alper, do you have any19 question on Mr. Seel's testimony?20 MR. ALPER: In the report, one of the21 graphics in the report shows Building D where it is and22 it also shows a drawing of the line that's labeled, I23 think on the report at the top of the slope or24 approximate top of the slope. I notice in some back and25 10 forth questioning and previous testimony from other1 witnesses the concept of the zoning allowing for2 building only on one side of the, I think the ridge line3 is the expression used, if I'm remembering correctly,4 but that's not -- how far is the closest approach of5 Building D to the actual top of the slope to that line6 in the center there?7 THE WITNESS: To the -- so there's two lines8 on the drawing, one is a limit of disturbance line, the9 dash line. There's another line that you're referring10 to, the closest points about 13 feet, if I recall.11 MR. ALPER: So I think it was 7 feet from12 the line of disturbance, to the area of disturbance13 line, but it's 13 feet from the slope?14 THE WITNESS: I'd have to verify, but that's15 what I recall.16 MR. ALPER: Okay. Thank you.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Wilkes, do you have18 any questions of Mr. Seel on his testimony?19 MR. WILKES: No, no questions at this time.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Councilwoman Scarpa, do21 you have any questions on Mr. Seel's testimony?22 COUNCIL PERSON SCARPA: Not at this time.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Hess, do you have any24 questions on Mr. Seel's testimony?25 11 MR. HESS: Just one quick question.1 Is there any seismic risk at the property?2 THE WITNESS: So in terms of

time.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Hess, do you have any24 questions on Mr. Seel's testimony?25 11 MR. HESS: Just one quick question.1 Is there any seismic risk at the property?2 THE WITNESS: So in terms of generally3 speaking in New Jersey seismic risks are low. There is4 a map what's called fault, which is discounted the rock,5 that is, I believe it was maybe a half mile or a quarter6 mile away. Sorry, I will repeat that. There's a map7 what's fault discounting the rock, but that is, there is8 no activity on it that's in the record and it is9 generally consistent with a lot of the other findings10 available for seismic risk shock. Our findings are very11 low seismic risk.12 MR. HESS: Okay. Thank you.13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Haizel, do you have14 any questions on Mr. Seel's testimony?15 MR. HAIZEL: Yes.16 Just to pick up on Mr. Hess. If -- is there17 any risk when you factor in any type of blasting into18 the process?19 THE WITNESS: So any type of blasting I would20 just emphasize caution on. I would say blasting of any21 rock can be done safely. I have been involved and I've22 recommended blasting within a foot of high-rise23 foundation buildings, towers. As long as they're24 controlled blasting techniques that are put in place,25 12 blasting can be done very safely on any -- in any1 setting.2 MR. HAIZEL: But is there anything3 particular about this profile as you mentioned that is,4 makes it a little more at risk with blasting?5 THE WITNESS: No, there is nothing about this6 site that's inherently, in my view, inherently at risk7 of blasting. As long as controlled blasting techniques8 are properly implemented, there's no risk.9 MR. HAIZEL: Thank you.10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Let the record show that11 Mr. Cardoza joined the board.12 Mayor McCartney.13 MAYOR MCcARTNEY: Thank you.14 Mr. Seel, Mr. Haizel's question begs the15 question about is there anything that the applicant has16 to do to shore up the slope if there's any blasting to17 Building D?18 THE WITNESS: No, typically what would happen19 on many developments is that the contractor would design20 construction documents that require such measures be21 implemented and then the contractor would implement22 those. That would be done at the drill site, so there23 will be nothing needed within the slope. Findings of24 the slope stability under seismic analysis show that it25

02/13/2025 11:25:53 AM Page 13 to 16 of 143 4 of 57 sheets 13 still, it's still stable. So as long as blasting is1 controlled, I don't see a risk to the slope.2 MAYOR MCcARTNEY: Thank you.3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Thank you.4 Do any members of the public have any5 questions for Mr. Seel on his testimony? Please come up6 to the microphone, state your name.7 Ladies and Gentlemen, questions start with8 when, why, what, where, which. Please don't testify9 something that you know personally. Ask the expert10 about testimony they have provided. Thank you.11 THE PUBLIC: Thank you. Barbara White and I12 get a smile that I get to ask the first question.13 My question is about blasting. I am sure14 you're aware in this particular instance there would be15 blasting in order to handle stormwater runoff, what do16 you call it, pools, etc., and then over the course of17 time four buildings. So you mentioned that there's18 nothing that you're aware of that would preclude during19 blasting. I'm very interested in two things. One is20 that you have multiple blast sites in a 36 acre space,21 that's number one, and the second is as the work goes22 along is there an opportunity to retest for any23 movements as some major blasting takes place?24 THE WITNESS: Well, on the first part. We25 14 were retained strictly as to the slope issue, so I can't1 really -- I'm not familiar with the other aspects on the2 site. But in general when you talk about blasting, as3 long as the blasting is properly staged and carefully4 implemented I wouldn't see, I don't, I wouldn't expect5 there to be any compounding effect, if that's what your6 question is.7 THE PUBLIC: That's actually the second8 question I asked. I understand it's going to be over a9 long period of time, multiple blastings from multiple10 building foundations, water, etc. So, again, is there a11 possibility of an accumulative effect or you don't know12 that?13 THE WITNESS: I think that's outside of my14 testimony. But as it relates to the building, I would15 suspect that rock is blasted to construct the building16 foundation that it would be done in a sequence manner,17 relatively short-term and the, because the soil profile18 is granular an relatively dense, I don't suspect there19 to be any negative impacts on the stability of the20 slope.21 THE PUBLIC: Okay.22 Mr. Bagoff, I don't know if I can ask this23 question.24 With the,

anular an relatively dense, I don't suspect there19 to be any negative impacts on the stability of the20 slope.21 THE PUBLIC: Okay.22 Mr. Bagoff, I don't know if I can ask this23 question.24 With the, considering all the blasting over25 15 a very long period of time, would it be appropriate for1 the planning board to ask that something that will2 ensure that they're testing as construction goes along,3 could be multiple years, to make sure there's no issue4 with respect to blasting?5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I think it's going to be6 up to the building department. Once they get the7 documents they will work with the engineering firm to8 ensure that everything is within code and within the9 state regulations.10 Would that be reasonable to say?11 MS. MCGOVERN: That's not a condition.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That's not a condition,13 that's normally what happens.14 Mr. Plocker.15 MR. PLOCKER: Yeah, I said that is standard16 procedure of my client throughout this process and any17 period of compliance we will be working with the towns18 professionals in connection with that item as with19 respect to many others as well.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The way things are done on21 a regular basis with the township building department.22 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You're welcome.24 Come on up.25 16 THE PUBLIC: Nancy Meyerowitz, 19 Howell1 Drive. M-E-Y-E-R-O-W-I-T-Z.2 My question is, from looking at the report,3 I looked at most of it, I don't see any reference to4 Howell Drive. You look solely down the other side of5 the slope but, I mean, everybody on Howell Drive is at6 the bottom slope as well, looks like that wasn't7 considered at all?8 THE WITNESS: That's the area to the --9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Seel, speak into the10 microphone, please.11 THE WITNESS: That's to the north?12 THE PUBLIC: Below the cul-de-sac. We all,13 you know, get runoff and water and everything from above14 the cul-de-sac, so we're considered, we believe we're a15 slope, at the bottom of the slope as well.16 MR. PLOCKER: I just want to say to the17 extent that runoff is going to be discussed, I don't18 think Mr. Seel testified about stormwater and drainage,19 things to that nature. Not to say they're not important20 to you and we recognize that they are, but his testimony21 in his report was limited to the stability of the22 location of Building D.23 THE PUBLIC: But Building D is right above24 my

not important20 to you and we recognize that they are, but his testimony21 in his report was limited to the stability of the22 location of Building D.23 THE PUBLIC: But Building D is right above24 my house. So I mean, how do you know there's no impact25