January 29, 2025 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

5 of 57 sheets Page 17 to 20 of 143 02/13/2025 11:25:53 AM 17 from building Building D on the homes on Howell Drive?1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: He didn't speak about2 water runoff.3 THE PUBLIC: I'm not talking about water.4 I'm talking about Building D and stability of the slope5 below Building D, because slope has two sides.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: What aspect -- I'm sorry.7 What aspect? He's a geotechnical expert so is there8 something he's testified to?9 THE PUBLIC: Well, did you look at -- you10 said you did soil samples for the slope down on that11 side, did you do any on Howell Drive and the impact of12 Building D on Howell Drive?13 THE WITNESS: That - there's no analysis in14 our report for that. We took borings at accessible15 locations along a few different places behind Building D16 and we found all that material to be generally very17 consistent. So I'm expecting that the same would apply18 elsewhere. But, no, nothing in specific was analyzed19 between Building D and the location that you're20 referencing.21 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Step up to the mic and23 give us your name for the record, please.24 THE PUBLIC: Hi. My name is Victor Misarti,25 18 M-I-S-A-R-T-I. My properties right at the bottom of1 that hill and I'm familiar with quite a bit of rock.2 There's a little bit of soil and then a lot of rock. So3 my question is about the rock and the blasting and the4 geotechnical, I'm not sure, you tell me, maybe it's5 construction related, but how are, I mean, can this rock6 up on top be blasted? I mean, we've got underground7 utilities, these large detention basins for the8 buildings. I mean, is this capable of being blasted?9 All this to remove all that rock.10 THE WITNESS: Blasting as a method of11 excavation is, is one of the preferred methods of12 excavating this type of material. The material can be13 very, very hard, it's not easy to excavate. Blasting is14 a relatively more rapid form of excavation and it's15 appropriate to use for this rock material that are at16 the site.17 THE PUBLIC: And then it all has to be18 carted away or removed or something from the site?19 THE WITNESS: Yes, be either reused somewhere20 else on-site or removed. I don't know what the plan is.21 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.22 My second question is, will the blasting23 cause any harm to the neighboring houses, neighboring24 properties right over there? Does it affect

I don't know what the plan is.21 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.22 My second question is, will the blasting23 cause any harm to the neighboring houses, neighboring24 properties right over there? Does it affect their25 19 foundations for instance.1 THE WITNESS: So what I testified to earlier2 was the use of controlled blasting techniques, this is3 limiting the amount of charge per delay as shots are4 produced. The amount of burden or amount of material5 that gets blasted, things of that nature. So as long as6 these are properly implemented, those types of methods7 that we expect, and there's also a monitoring program8 implemented along with any blasting program that9 ensures, that provides understanding what the impasse10 would be and then ensures the safety of the program.11 THE PUBLIC: I'm sorry, you said monitoring?12 THE WITNESS: Monitoring, correct.13 THE PUBLIC: Okay.14 So it's not going to be disruptive?15 THE WITNESS: Well, what we would expect,16 what I would recommend for any blasting, there's always17 a monitor associated with it. So vibration monitors18 will be set up to understand what energy is getting19 behind the line of excavation.20 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.22 State your name, sir.23 THE PUBLIC: James White.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, sir.25 20 THE PUBLIC: I live at 1399 Pleasant Valley1 Way.2 Hello Mr. Seel. How are you today?3 THE WITNESS: Very good.4 How are?5 THE PUBLIC: Very well.6 Mr. Seel, are you aware that there was7 historic flooding approximately two years ago that8 caused severe amount of damage to town?9 THE WITNESS: I am not familiar with it, no.10 THE PUBLIC: Okay. Reason why I ask this, I11 am curious if, in your analysis you had mentioned that12 the fault line and the stability was tested for all13 expected weather patterns. Well, we have had some14 pretty severe aberrations in weather, not just here in15 New Jersey, not just here in West Orange, but throughout16 the country. Storms dropping multiple inches per hour,17 that kind of event would you analysis be able to18 guarantee the stability of that slope if such a storm19 were to arrive?20 THE WITNESS: Well, as part of our analysis21 we did look at raising of the water table. So in our22 findings, in our borings and test pits showed no water23 table present. And despite that, and despite there was24 lack of evidence that there even was a seasonal

aising of the water table. So in our22 findings, in our borings and test pits showed no water23 table present. And despite that, and despite there was24 lack of evidence that there even was a seasonal water25

02/13/2025 11:25:53 AM Page 21 to 24 of 143 6 of 57 sheets 21 table, we did modify the water table as part of our1 analysis. We brought it up close to the ground surface.2 So in other words, full saturation of the ground and it3 was still stable.4 THE PUBLIC: Okay.5 And looking at the full saturation of the6 ground would that also account for completely atypical7 such as four or five times amount of rain that normally8 falls on it at the same time, would it also account for9 that, the weight of water on top of it?10 THE WITNESS: Well, we don't look at the11 intensity of the storms, this is for the slope. We're12 looking at water within the core spaces and the slope13 profiles are about as strong as it gets.14 THE PUBLIC: Okay.15 Well, the part of West Orange that collapsed16 had stood for my entire lifetime and my mother's entire17 lifetime, so we can't really use what were typically18 happening in those kinds of situations, but I'll move19 on.20 The next question I have is, you said21 several samples were taken around the area but not in22 the area of Howell Drive, is that correct?23 THE WITNESS: Correct. Nothing between the24 building and Howell Drive. It was taken between25 22 Building D and along the slope.1 THE PUBLIC: And you said in your testimony2 that you expect them to be the same and consistent with3 the samples that you took from the other side, is that4 correct?5 THE WITNESS: Yeah. We expect that the6 conditions are generally very stable. We also analyzed7 a relatively weaker soil profile that the data showed8 us.9 THE PUBLIC: But what do you expect or what10 do you base that expectation on, other than gumption?11 THE WITNESS: It's professional experience12 and our observations of the site conditions.13 THE PUBLIC: So your professional experience14 allows you to know what's going on 30 feet under the15 ground, 40 feet from the blast sample? Just to throw of16 random numbers.17 THE WITNESS: No, I wouldn't say that.18 THE PUBLIC: Okay.19 How many samples did you take, sir?20 THE WITNESS: So we did four borings and21 eight test pits.22 THE PUBLIC: Four borings, eight test pits?23 THE WITNESS: Yes.24 THE PUBLIC: Okay.25 23 And based on four borings and eight test1 pits you feel as if you have a complete understanding2 and faith in the stability of an area that's something3 like 36 acres, is that correct or how many acres, I'm4 sorry?5 MR. PLOCKER: I

eight test1 pits you feel as if you have a complete understanding2 and faith in the stability of an area that's something3 like 36 acres, is that correct or how many acres, I'm4 sorry?5 MR. PLOCKER: I just want to make it clear6 that his report was limited to the stability of the7 location of Building D.8 THE PUBLIC: Building D.9 MR. PLOCKER: For a clear record, sir.10 THE PUBLIC: Sure.11 What's the acreage of that area? He knows.12 THE WITNESS: I don't know the exact13 acreage.14 THE PUBLIC: But you feel that the four15 borings and eight test pits were sufficient to16 understand the area given that if this --17 THE WITNESS: In my professional opinion.18 MR. PLOCKER: Only one person can talk at a19 time.20 THE PUBLIC: Sure. So you feel confident to21 that point that nothing can happen that would cause any22 of this to cause an avalanche or anything like that or23 cause anything to sheer off and endanger the lives of24 the citizens of our town? Based on that you feel25 24 extremely confident, 100 percent.1 THE WITNESS: I would say considering all the2 investigations that we did and the fact that the slope3 was very gentle, I would say a 17 degree slope at most,4 which is three on one and the balance of it is much5 lighter than that, that there is, that the risk that you6 just described doesn't exist.7 THE PUBLIC: Okay. Based on that area?8 THE WITNESS: Correct.9 THE PUBLIC: Okay. All right.10 That's it for now.11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.12 Come on up. State your name, please.13 THE PUBLIC: Rachel Klein. Howell Drive as14 well.15 I have a couple general questions and then a16 specific. I guess the first one would be, could you17 provide some, I can see where you took the borings from18 my house because it's marked in a bright pink and you19 can obviously see that. But I think some people, your20 crews actually took it, would it be possible to provide21 the public with a map of the site looking down?22 THE WITNESS: There is -- within our report,23 there is a figure that shows the locations.24 MS. MCGOVERN: Do you want to put it up.25

7 of 57 sheets Page 25 to 28 of 143 02/13/2025 11:25:53 AM 25 MR. PLOCKER: We're going to get the page.1 THE PUBLIC: Anyway, I can literally see it2 out my kitchen window, but.3 MS. MCGOVERN: What page is this? Do we4 have a page number.5 MR. PLOCKER: Well, there's an executive6 summary at the end Diana, Ms. McGovern, and then there's7 a report proper, but total is a 73 page PDF and it's8 Page 8 of the 73 page PDF.9 MS. MCGOVERN: Thank you.10 MR. PLOCKER: This is of the Langan report11 of January this year.12 THE PUBLIC: And I just saw the size of the13 machine and I'm guessing the size of the machine can14 actually go on the slope because all the sites look15 pretty flat, it never, none of these actual tests were16 into any of the actual sloping parts and it's a huge17 machine and I know from where I can see they're pretty18 high up most of these sites that samples were taken. Do19 you know any different?20 THE WITNESS: Well, the borings and test21 pits were taken as they're shown on here and some of22 them are on fairly, they are steeper. The area itself23 is generally flat.24 THE PUBLIC: Just where Building D is going25 26 to go?1 THE WITNESS: I'm saying where along the2 steep agenda the profile has these two horizontal lines,3 you a series of test pits and bores. I'm saying that,4 that profile is generally relatively flat and I think5 that means different things to different people. Some6 people might --7 THE PUBLIC: Many people think flat is8 like there's no hill.9 THE WITNESS: Well, I would say relatively10 flat in terms of slope. So what it means, 10 degrees is11 relatively flat in terms stability. If the soil12 material is very dense it has a very high degree of13 strength relative to the slope. So if it has 34 degrees14 of friction and your slope is only 10 degrees it's15 material is inherently much more stable than the driving16 forces would otherwise allow to, to sheer it.17 THE PUBLIC: The other general question was,18 whose decision was it to do the stability study? Was it19 -- you're hired by the developer, but who's running it,20 is the planning board, do you know, or was it the21 developers? Curiosity.22 THE WITNESS: That I don't know. The23 request came from the owner.24 MR. PLOCKER: I will make that25 27 representation based on the comments and questions that1 we received at earlier hearings and the concern by the2 public which we

The23 request came from the owner.24 MR. PLOCKER: I will make that25 27 representation based on the comments and questions that1 we received at earlier hearings and the concern by the2 public which we respected, we decided to go out and3 retain Langan and Langan performed the study on behalf4 of us. We then filed with the board and Mr. Seel is5 here tonight.6 THE PUBLIC: So you then decided as well,7 but the developer --8 MR. PLOCKER: Based upon the comments, there9 were a lot of comments made about the location of10 Building D and why that was chosen and the specific11 location it was in. Based upon those comments we had12 Langan prepare the report regarding the stability of the13 proposed location Building D as set forth on the site14 plan.15 THE WITNESS: I think you're asking who16 prepared the boring locations. That was us. It was an17 independent review of the ask and we developed this18 program.19 THE PUBLIC: So before you came to the site20 were you familiar with the history of the land, the21 site, things that have been developed around the ridge22 line before, like the Highlands, the houses on Howell23 Drive, the ground?24 THE WITNESS: I can't say that we -- I25 28 personally was familiar with all the development around1 the site.2 THE PUBLIC: The planning board said that3 they do these kinds of tests and studies before any4 developments get done for safety and stability. When5 The Grand was built and they did the top of The Grand6 there was a landslide and it knocked a couple houses on7 --8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry. You're9 testifying. You can ask questions about what he said.10 Please don't testify. The public will come after we are11 done.12 THE PUBLIC: So were you aware of the13 landslide in a very close location to this? It wasn't14 owned by the same owner, it was the same ridge line and15 hill, continuous forest.16 THE WITNESS: No, I was not.17 THE PUBLIC: And the very top of the same18 slope just further south.19 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't familiar with it.20 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.22 THE PUBLIC: Can I ask another question.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: State your name again,24 sir.25

02/13/2025 11:25:53 AM Page 29 to 32 of 143 8 of 57 sheets 29 THE PUBLIC: Okay. Victor Misarti,1 M-I-S-A-R-T-I.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.3 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.4 After I've seen the map I have a question.5 These, the purple circles, those are borings or test6 pits?7 THE WITNESS: Yes, the purple symbols are8 borings or test pits. It's hard to see from this, but9 some of them are labeled LB would be the boring and TP10 would be the test pit.11 THE PUBLIC: Okay. Because I'm just12 wondering for instance, the boring machines, I guess13 they're on trucks, but how, I mean, that's a very steep14 slope, how do they drive -- I can't imagine a truck15 driving down that slope to do the borings?16 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, what is the17 question.18 THE PUBLIC: Okay. The question is, how do19 you drive a truck down to those locations?20 THE WITNESS: Well, what we typically will21 do in areas where there is difficult terrain, we have a22 all-terrain vehicle, could be tracked or rubber tire23 that is capable of getting up and down steeper slopes.24 THE PUBLIC: Okay.25 30 So like a tracked machine?1 THE WITNESS: Correct. It could be a2 tracked machine, it could be an ATV. I don't recall3 what was used here.4 THE PUBLIC: Either?5 THE WITNESS: Yeah, it could be either or.6 Tracked or rubber tire that has all-terrain capability.7 THE PUBLIC: That's very steep. Okay. All8 right. Thank you.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.10 Any other members of the public who would11 like to question Mr. Seel on his testimony?12 Please come up and state your name.13 THE PUBLIC: Good evening. My name is Orin14 Knights.15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Go right ahead, sir.16 THE PUBLIC: I have a question for you and17 for the planning board.18 With regards to your blasting, was there a19 study, I know we're talking about Building D which is20 the focus right now. And where Building D is, there's a21 slope that goes down to, for instance, Rosemont Terrace22 and the other streets next to it. Now, for instance23 Rosemont Terrace over the years has had tremendous24 flooding. People's homes, basements have been flooded25 31 when we have heavy rains. Was there a study done by1 your company regarding the other streets or just in that2 area?3 MR. PLOCKER: Again, I don't think Mr. Seel4 testified as to stormwater runoff.5 MS. MCGOVERN: That's not what he's asking.6 He's asking was another study done in another area?7 MR.

ust in that2 area?3 MR. PLOCKER: Again, I don't think Mr. Seel4 testified as to stormwater runoff.5 MS. MCGOVERN: That's not what he's asking.6 He's asking was another study done in another area?7 MR. PLOCKER: Oh, I'm sorry.8 MS. MCGOVERN: You're asking was there9 another study done in another area?10 THE PUBLIC: For instance, right under11 Building D, the slope and there's trees down there.12 MS. MCGOVERN: You hear the question?13 THE PUBLIC: So for instance Rosemont14 Terrace there's a street right at the bottom.15 THE WITNESS: I believe, I believe your16 question is, did Langan do a study about stormwater17 runoff from the site down to Rosemont.18 THE PUBLIC: Right. Not only stormwater19 runoff but the impact that the blasting is going to have20 on the homes at the bottom of that area. Because we're21 talking about, we're talking about bedrock that might be22 unstable in that area. Now, has there been a study23 regarding one, the foundation, the bedrock in that area24 because we're Building D is, is kind of close to the25 32 slope, am I right? Not much space, so.1 THE WITNESS: Correct.2 THE PUBLIC: So did you guys study that area3 and did you study the impact that it's going to have on4 the residents at the bottom of the homes, the5 foundations even?6 This is also, I have a question for the7 planning board as well. So have you studied that, has8 there been a plan, a study and who authorizes it and has9 there been.10 MS. MCGOVERN: You got to do one at a time.11 You keep asking and then keep adding to the question,12 so.13 THE PUBLIC: He's not answering my question,14 so that's why I'm adding.15 THE WITNESS: I'm just waiting for you to16 pause.17 THE PUBLIC: I'm paused right now.18 THE WITNESS: Okay. So first of all it was19 not my testimony that the rock is unstable. It's20 inherently stable, so I don't know, I can't speak to the21 inherently stability of the rock. No, we did not22 perform an assessment, we were not asked to. We were23 looking at blasting, our scope was strictly to look at24 the stability of the slope back to Building D.25

9 of 57 sheets Page 33 to 36 of 143 02/13/2025 11:25:53 AM 33 THE PUBLIC: So has there been -- have you,1 have you spoken to the residents at the bottom of that2 area? Has there been a study regarding the impact of3 your project or its just been a study in that particular4 area? That's what I'm asking.5 THE WITNESS: The ask of Langan was to look6 at the stability of that slope with respect to Building7 D. That's what we performed. That's what we performed.8 THE PUBLIC: Well, I have a question for the9 planning board. For instance, if there's impact on the10 residents at the bottom homes, because as we know if you11 have an earthquake it has residual effects, after12 shocks. So if one of our homes are damaged, the13 foundation is this -- is there going to be some kind of14 escrow set up that's going to compensate residents for15 any kind of damage that the blasting might cause? This16 is for the city.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I believe our policy is18 that the building department would be notified and the19 zoning official comes out to take a look at the area and20 they will contact the engineer for the applicant and21 they will evaluate it from there and I believe that's22 the standard policy of how the town works. So there's a23 protection. I believe that has protection. But we will24 make sure of that, we will contact the building25 34 department and get you a better answer.1 THE PUBLIC: All right. Thank you.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ms. McGovern will contact3 the building department and have a better answer and4 post the answer on our website. Thank you.5 Yes, sir.6 THE PUBLIC: Patrick Laterza, L-A-T-E-R-Z-A.7 So a couple quick questions.8 One, why were those specific locations9 chosen for the borings along those lines?10 THE WITNESS: Partly because of access. Our11 people or project manager determined the locations that12 were appropriate. One of them is here, that knob,13 that's going to be excavated, which is on the, the line.14 We wanted to get as close to that as we could. There15 were some steeper slopes in there and similarly on the A16 line it's an area where there are steeper slopes that17 were accessible.18 THE PUBLIC: Okay.19 So it's not -- those look like less steep20 areas than other areas, is it perhaps there's less21 steeper slope access?22 THE WITNESS: Let me explain the -- how I see23 it. The contour lines would be, or the dash lines that24 run