January 29, 2025 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

ke less steep20 areas than other areas, is it perhaps there's less21 steeper slope access?22 THE WITNESS: Let me explain the -- how I see23 it. The contour lines would be, or the dash lines that24 run perpendicular to the purple lines, they have numbers25 35 within them. When those get closer to together that's1 the case of steeper. So for example here, these lines2 between this heavy dash line and these heavy dash lines,3 those are contour levels, I think they might be4 one-foot. So you can see the distance from here to here5 is relatively larger than from here to here. So this6 section of slope would be considered relatively steeper7 than this and much steeper than this, and so forth. So8 that's how we're trying to, when we set borings up given9 the inherent difficulties in navigating the site we try10 to -- we certainly want to be close to this area. We11 knew this was closer. And then on this one disturbed --12 limited disturbance slope and approximately to the top13 of the slope. And we wanted to get as much of the14 steeper area as we could. That's generally what drives15 the location of citing our test pits.16 THE PUBLIC: I'm going to say -- what I17 think I'm going -- you're saying that those areas were18 more accessible because they're not as steep as those19 other areas?20 THE WITNESS: That is not what I am saying.21 THE PUBLIC: Okay.22 THE WITNESS: I am saying what we're23 attempting to do is get, where we can, get into areas24 that are relatively steeper and that may not have been25 36 achieved in every location, but we have, there is a1 traumatic difference in the relevance steepness of some2 of these locations.3 THE PUBLIC: And you're not saying that4 those areas, 10 to 12 degrees, you're not saying those5 areas are 10 to 12 degrees?6 THE WITNESS: No, these areas are a little7 bit -- these areas here are a little steeper. Right in8 here for example.9 THE PUBLIC: How steep would you say those10 areas are?11 THE WITNESS: Roughly 17, 20 degrees, maybe.12 The amount overall from up here down to here roughly is13 about a 10 degree slope.14 THE PUBLIC: I'm not a geotechnical engineer15 but that doesn't look like that to me, but.16 I guess my other question is, when it comes17 to blasting --18 THE WITNESS: Yes.19 THE PUBLIC: -- I think you already said20 this, to be certain, you're saying that you most likely21 have to blast in this area to excavate

tion is, when it comes17 to blasting --18 THE WITNESS: Yes.19 THE PUBLIC: -- I think you already said20 this, to be certain, you're saying that you most likely21 have to blast in this area to excavate because of the22 density of the stone?23 THE WITNESS: That's one method, yeah.24 There are several different methods, drilling and25

02/13/2025 11:25:53 AM Page 37 to 40 of 143 10 of 57 sheets 37 breaking would a method. Hoe rams would be another1 method, but blasting tends to be the most productive.2 It's the quickest, it's the least overall impact on the3 community, but it's because of the relatively hardness4 of the rock contractors tend or prefer using blasting.5 THE PUBLIC: Is there any sort of danger6 when it comes to the sequence of blasting as opposed to7 just overall blasting? In other words, if you were to8 blast one area versus another would that lead to the9 potential collapse of an area versus blasting one area10 then another?11 THE WITNESS: Blasting is generally12 sequenced determined by the blaster. And if -- there's13 several things that go into determining what an14 appropriate blast sequence is. But your question is15 very broad, so it's harder to address. But I don't --16 if a properly developed, designed and implemented17 control blasting program is implemented then there's18 very -- there's no risk. Really very small risk of19 getting damage beyond that excavation line.20 THE PUBLIC: I think, to be more specific or21 as specific as I can get, I'm nowhere near an expert on22 this, is that the young lady who spoke earlier about23 collapse, part of the reason for that collapse just24 south of here, just because the blasting was not done in25 38 the right order and that led to the collapse of the1 slopes. So is that a danger if it is not done right? I2 mean, I guess everything is a danger when it's not done3 right, but obviously this was construction that you4 would expect people to have known how to do it and they5 didn't. So is something that needs to be a concern?6 THE WITNESS: It's -- we always recommend7 that this type of blasting be implemented on project8 sites and that is something that the owner implemented9 and put into their contract documents, to make sure that10 this is properly done and implemented.11 THE PUBLIC: Okay. All right. I think12 that's all I have.13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Young lady first.14 THE PUBLIC: Jessica Pearson, P-E-A-R-S-O-N.15 Good evening. Good evening board. I'm going to speak16 loudly because I had a very hard time hearing back there17 and I'm going to tell you that I apologize in advance if18 I repeat a question because I really -- back there is19 very, very difficult to hear, including your testimony.20 So I apologize.21 So I would like

m going to tell you that I apologize in advance if18 I repeat a question because I really -- back there is19 very, very difficult to hear, including your testimony.20 So I apologize.21 So I would like to know, how deep was the22 soil at the top of that ridge where you dug and were23 there dug soil borings at the top of that slope or did24 you go into the rock at the top of that slope, and if25 39 so, you would obviously know the depth of the sand and1 the dirt that I saw on your cross section?2 THE WITNESS: Correct. So the borings --3 THE PUBLIC: Can you speak up, I'm sorry.4 Even though I'm right here.5 THE WITNESS: We can scroll to the boring6 log and look at that together.7 It's in there.8 THE PUBLIC: So you're going to hopefully9 cover the distance from the ridge and the area at the10 top of that ridge where you dug borings or digging or11 drilling, I would like to know the depth of the dirt.12 Thank you.13 MS. MCGOVERN: It's Page 26 in the report.14 THE PUBLIC: Page 26 did you say?15 MS. MCGOVERN: That's what I'm trying to16 find out.17 THE WITNESS: This is it right here.18 MS. MCGOVERN: Page 26.19 THE WITNESS: Okay. So boring LB-1, which is20 shown up on the screen here.21 THE PUBLIC: Can you speak into the mic,22 please.23 THE WITNESS: What we're showing on the24 screen is boring LB-1 at the top of the slope and it's25 40 showing decomposed rock layer.1 THE PUBLIC: I'm sorry. I'm really having2 trouble hearing you. Maybe he needs a new mic or3 something. That mic is just --4 THE WITNESS: I will try to speak more5 closely into the mic.6 So what we're finding is in boring LD-1 rock7 is around, decomposed rock is about 9 feet below ground8 and above that is this generally sandy material with9 varying amounts of gravel and silt that tends to be very10 dense.11 THE PUBLIC: Very dense?12 THE WITNESS: Right.13 THE PUBLIC: You said 9 feet correct? Yeah.14 THE WITNESS: Correct.15 THE PUBLIC: 9 feet of silt and sand and16 some gravel before you hit rock. Did you bore into the17 rock as well and if so how deep?18 THE WITNESS: So at boring B-1 we cored a19 couple runs into it, which is a total depth of 24 feet.20 THE PUBLIC: I'm sorry.21 THE WITNESS: 24 feet total.22 THE PUBLIC: You went 24 feet into the rock?23 THE WITNESS: No, we went from 9 feet to 24.24 So the first 9 feet is soil and then the next 13 feet is25

11 of 57 sheets Page 41 to 44 of 143 02/13/2025 11:25:53 AM 41 rock.1 THE PUBLIC: He went 13 feet into the rock.2 And did you encounter any water table at3 that level?4 THE WITNESS: No, there was only one test pit5 where water was encountered, it was around the top of6 top of the rock. On the top of the decomposed rock.7 THE PUBLIC: I can't understand you.8 THE WITNESS: There was only one location,9 one test pit where water was encountered, otherwise10 water was not encountered.11 THE PUBLIC: And where was that located?12 You said it, I'm sorry, I still can't hear you.13 THE WITNESS: It's not in this boring, it was14 at test pit -- test pit 1 also encountered, as I recall.15 THE PUBLIC: So how many test pits were done16 at the top of the ridge?17 THE WITNESS: I think there was a total three18 or four within the top of the ridge.19 THE PUBLIC: And --20 THE WITNESS: Let me scroll back to the plan.21 THE PUBLIC: To the map.22 THE WITNESS: To the map.23 THE WITNESS: I think that was Page 8.24 THE PUBLIC: How close to the edge of the25 42 ridge were each of those four borings? I know it sounds1 like boring stuff, but I think it's important to know2 and to get on the record. Thank you.3 THE WITNESS: It's in the record.4 THE PUBLIC: I know.5 THE WITNESS: And depends what you describe6 as the top of the ridge, but boring B-1 and test pit 17 and test pit 8 on A line are --8 THE PUBLIC: I'm sorry, could you use a9 pointer and show me. Thank you.10 THE WITNESS: So looking at this line up in11 here.12 THE PUBLIC: Where? Which boring are we13 looking at?14 THE WITNESS: This is LB-1. These two test15 pits are also the top of the slope.16 THE PUBLIC: Are each of those purple, for17 lack of my -- because of my poor eyesight as well,18 circles are each of those test pits?19 THE WITNESS: Or borings. They're a20 combination. So TP are test pits. This is a test pit,21 this is a test pit. This is a test pit. This is a22 boring. This is a boring.23 THE PUBLIC: Okay. So there were four made24 along that parallel. What is that big truncated thing25 43 going up the dead center of the page?1 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you're2 referring to.3 THE PUBLIC: The white easement there.4 THE WITNESS: This here, the utility easement5 through here.6 THE PUBLIC: So that is below ground or is7 that at grade?8 THE WITNESS: I believe that's below ground.9 THE PUBLIC: Does anybody know if that's

WITNESS: This here, the utility easement5 through here.6 THE PUBLIC: So that is below ground or is7 that at grade?8 THE WITNESS: I believe that's below ground.9 THE PUBLIC: Does anybody know if that's at10 grade or below ground?11 THE WITNESS: It's below ground.12 THE PUBLIC: Can anyone tell me? It's on13 the map, so I'm wondering.14 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I did answer. This15 is a below grade utility easement.16 THE PUBLIC: It's below grade. Do you know17 at what depth?18 THE WITNESS: I don't know.19 THE PUBLIC: Okay.20 So you did test pits going that far away21 from the ridge, and I'm looking at the ridge, and if you22 could scroll up a little bit higher to the second23 parallel. No, the other way. Yup. Yes. Okay. It24 looks like there's some extremely steep areas coming off25 44 the ridge and what's the distance at that sort of little1 point where TP-7 is? Test pit 7. That seems to be2 right at the edge or maybe at the edge of the ridge, is3 that correct?4 THE WITNESS: TP-7 is at the edge. It's a5 relatively flat area in here and then it drops off more6 steeply on this side.7 THE PUBLIC: Okay.8 How far from the edge of that ridge,9 according to your drawing, would that corner of the10 building be? Right near test pit 7.11 THE WITNESS: So this distance from here to12 here is about 13 feet.13 THE PUBLIC: 13. And then did you say 17 up14 above at the other parallel? I think I heard the number15 17 floating around.16 THE WITNESS: No, I don't recall 17. I17 didn't say 17.18 THE PUBLIC: So are you guys going to be19 putting any kind of mesh netting up to hopefully20 withhold some of the potential rock that might split off21 of the face of some of the steeper edges of the ridge?22 THE WITNESS: That was not part of our23 conclusion. Our conclusion is that the slope is stable.24 THE PUBLIC: The slope is stable preblast,25

02/13/2025 11:25:53 AM Page 45 to 48 of 143 12 of 57 sheets 45 I'm sure it is. But you're not capable of saying how it1 would react once the vibration goes through the rock,2 you have not testified on that because it would be3 impossible for you to say, because you're not there and4 have you been asked to be the blaster?5 THE WITNESS: No.6 THE PUBLIC: You guys doing any of the ---7 no. Okay. So of course you can't testify on the safety8 of the rock and the ridge post blasting.9 So perhaps the board, much in the same way10 that it was asked a few times, might consider a pre and11 post blast survey the way that the state does for12 certain radius around a blast site, and that would13 include not just the homes that are at the bottom of14 that hill, as many people have concerns, but also the15 ridge itself which I would think should be. Wouldn't16 you consider investigating that ridge and the stability17 of the ridge after a few months of vibration have been18 run through it, after it rains as this gentleman brought19 up and other conditions continue. Would that not be20 sensible Mr. Chair, to condition?21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I think the time now is to22 ask questions and if you want to make statements --23 THE PUBLIC: That's not a statement, that's24 a question to you.25 46 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Excuse me. If you don't1 know the difference between a question and a statement2 we can talk about that. The question -- the question is3 to the expert now.4 THE PUBLIC: You jump in when you want but5 it's okay. I'm respectfully asking the chairman of the6 board a question, if you care not to answer that --7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The time now is to ask8 questions of the expert. Okay.9 THE PUBLIC: Well, the expert is not able to10 answer that question.11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.12 THE PUBLIC: Are you, sir?13 THE WITNESS: I can't.14 MR. PLOCKER: Respectfully, it's a15 construction issue, Chairman Bagoff.16 THE PUBLIC: No, it's not, sir. It could be17 a condition of approval to ensure the safety.18 MR. PLOCKER: As I was saying Chairman19 Bagoff, my --20 THE PUBLIC: Now he's asking me questions.21 MR. PLOCKER: I didn't ask her a question.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Hess, is that23 something normally done through the engineering24 process --25 47 THE PUBLIC: No, it's not, sir.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: -- where situations like2 this occur?3 MR. HESS: It's normally done prior to start4 of

omething normally done through the engineering24 process --25 47 THE PUBLIC: No, it's not, sir.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: -- where situations like2 this occur?3 MR. HESS: It's normally done prior to start4 of construction. There is a blasting plan that's5 prepared and that blasting plan lays out the monitoring6 that's going to occur to protect the properties.7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Is there a subsequent8 survey done after blasting?9 MR. HESS: Not that I've ever seen.10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.11 MR. PLOCKER: And, again, as a condition of12 approval we stated on the record numerous times, we'll13 follow all guidelines, protocols and regulations and14 work with the towns professionals in that regard.15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.16 THE PUBLIC: All right. So you can't, sir,17 answer? You can't answer that question because you18 don't know how the effects of blasting might impact. So19 you can't say whether it's going to be a secured ridge,20 cliff face of a wall, etc., after blasting. You can21 only tell us the condition it's in today or the day that22 you did that report, correct?23 THE WITNESS: I can't tell you what it is24 going to be like after. I was only charged with25 48 evaluating that slope stability.1 THE PUBLIC: Okay.2 You can't answer that question. Thank you.3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.4 THE PUBLIC: Hello. Again, my name is James5 White.6 Mr. Seel, line A and B, what's the distance7 between those two lines?8 THE WITNESS: About 300 and --9 THE PUBLIC: Speak up into the microphone.10 THE WITNESS: About 375 feet.11 THE PUBLIC: 375 feet. Okay.12 And there, besides I think LB-1, there are13 no test pits that I can see or anything like that within14 that 375 foot wide area, is that correct?15 THE WITNESS: That's correct.16 THE PUBLIC: Okay.17 And then going long ways, how many feet are18 we talking about that area from the start of let's say19 TP-1 all the way to the end of line A, what is that20 approximate distance, sir?21 THE WITNESS: Rough numbers, 300, 325.22 THE PUBLIC: Could you zoom the map a23 little, please. Zoom out a little bit. That can't be.24 If it's 375 feet between A and B, how can that line be25

13 of 57 sheets Page 49 to 52 of 143 02/13/2025 11:25:53 AM 49 375 feet long. It looks like it's more about 950 feet1 long, is that correct? That's my guesstimate looking at2 it.3 THE WITNESS: I understood your first4 question to be what's the distance between test pit 1 --5 THE PUBLIC: No, no. My question is, what's6 the distance between line A and line B?7 THE WITNESS: Right. That's 375 feet.8 THE PUBLIC: Okay.9 So how long is line B approximately?10 THE WITNESS: So you're asking the length B11 to B?12 THE PUBLIC: Yes, sir. The length B to B.13 THE WITNESS: Probably 600, 700 feet.14 THE PUBLIC: At least, right?15 THE WITNESS: Roughly that.16 THE PUBLIC: So how many square feet is17 that, sir? Of area that you took no tests in.18 THE WITNESS: I don't know what the areas is.19 I don't see that as relevant.20 THE PUBLIC: You don't see that as relevant.21 THE WITNESS: We have data work that we --22 THE PUBLIC: Okay.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Sir. Sir. One at a time.24 THE PUBLIC: You're right. Duly noted.25 50 Go ahead.1 THE WITNESS: We have data that represents2 the slope at a couple locations and it's consistent and3 uniform throughout.4 THE PUBLIC: Okay.5 So, so, you don't find any relevance in the6 area that is many, several, several thousand square feet7 of space because you feel as if the data, the underlying8 data says that whatever is between those lines should be9 uniform, is that what you're saying?10 THE WITNESS: I'm saying that for the site11 conditions that we have there is a generally, relatively12 flatter slope for the most part and steeper. As it13 approaches the top of the slope the conditions are14 relatively uniform and then our technical program,15 investigation program, is adequate to properly16 characterize the site.17 THE PUBLIC: And I assume that's an18 algorithm based kind of thing, plug in the variable and19 it says --20 THE WITNESS: No, it's an experienced based21 factor.22 THE PUBLIC: So opinion then?23 THE WITNESS: Yes. Very experienced24 professional opinion.25 51 THE PUBLIC: But opinion?1 THE WITNESS: Sure.2 THE PUBLIC: Okay. Good.3 My next question for you, you have described4 this slope several different ways, which is5 understandable because it's a complex slope, it's not6 going to be any uniform amount, but I have heard you say7 that the ridge is 10 degrees and I have heard you say it8 was 17 degrees. Well, my question for you is

because it's a complex slope, it's not6 going to be any uniform amount, but I have heard you say7 that the ridge is 10 degrees and I have heard you say it8 was 17 degrees. Well, my question for you is within9 reason is the sharpest point, if we zoom into the middle10 of the map there, the areas where you were not able to11 get test equipment in which is pretty much dead center12 between line A and line B, what is the slope like in13 there, in the steepest points?14 THE WITNESS: I would have to measure it. I15 don't know off the top of my head.16 THE PUBLIC: Okay. Would you say probably17 more than 20 or 25 degrees?18 THE WITNESS: Again, I don't recall. I19 don't know what it is. We know that from lines A and B20 that as you get closer to the top the slope steepens to21 on the order of 15, 20 percent. I'm sorry, degrees.22 And so I would say that slope is an approximate23 reasonable range in between.24 THE PUBLIC: So you're saying, I may have25 52 heard this, I want to make sure I heard you correctly.1 So you're saying that at no point in there is it greater2 than roughly 17 degrees?3 THE WITNESS: I'm not saying that. I'm4 saying in general that it's, it's, it's steeper as we5 approach the top of the slope and much more shallow as6 you move away from it.7 THE PUBLIC: Okay.8 And were you able to conduct any of your9 testing in the absolute steepest parts of the slope that10 overlook people's homes?11 THE WITNESS: We, we investigated the areas12 that were accessible. I would say looking at our map13 right here we didn't take a test pit or boring where14 it's to steep to get into.15 THE PUBLIC: Right. So your answer is, to16 my question, would be no, is that correct?17 THE WITNESS: That's a fair statement, yes.18 THE PUBLIC: Right. So no, you did not take19 any tests in the steepest parts of the hill, that is20 right?21 THE WITNESS: That's correct.22 THE PUBLIC: Right. Because your equipment23 was not able to get into those areas in order to conduct24 said tests, is that the main reason why not?25