April 30, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

5 of 48 sheets Page 17 to 20 of 116 05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM 17 a little bit of time, a few years for those edge1 processes to invade the forest that hasn't been2 disturbed, but after a few years you would only have3 core forest ecological processes still happening with4 integrity in those areas outlined in the magenta and5 that nine acres is not big enough to support any core6 processes.7 And just to clarify this, the slide that8 Q. previously depicted the red area is the area of9 development of the proposed project, is that correct?10 Yes.11 A. Okay. Thank you.12 Q. So, again, here's the core forest today and then13 A. there's the same image with the proposed development in14 red and remaining core forest, which totals nine acres.15 And, again, nine acres is not enough to support16 any population of any forest interior species, forest17 interior species are area sensitive. In order to18 maintain a population those forest interior species need19 a decent size tract of forest, usually about 50 acres or20 more for a population to be sustained, which they have21 now which they, you know, well, completely all the core22 forest species will completely disappear. That's a lot23 of species. And I already mentioned we have not done24 any studies, we don't know of any threatened or25 18 endangered species that are existing in this forest and1 it's not very likely that there are any threatened or2 endangered species protected by regulations because they3 generally need even greater acres of core forest, but4 there are lots of species of special concern that should5 be in here and species of special concern that are6 listed by the State of New Jersey are those species that7 are next in line to become threatened. So if you're8 interested in protecting diversity in your municipality9 than you should be trying to protect your core forest.10 That's all I have.11 If you can go back to the last slide a moment,12 Q. please.13 So for the record, this slide depicts the area of14 disturbance in red and then it has three smaller areas15 in magenta and those are the areas the witness has said16 comprise the remaining core forest. I'm just describing17 it so the written record is clear as to what slide we're18 dealing with.19 Was that all of your presentation at this point?20 That's all I have. If anyone would like to ask21 A. any questions I would welcome that.22 Let me develop a

r as to what slide we're18 dealing with.19 Was that all of your presentation at this point?20 That's all I have. If anyone would like to ask21 A. any questions I would welcome that.22 Let me develop a little bit with you on one23 Q. point.24 Now, looking at those slides is it your testimony25 19 that everything that is remaining outside of the1 magenta, and not including the area in red, that would2 be edge forest, is that correct?3 That's right. Over time after a few years.4 A. Now, what's the process that affects the edge?5 Q. What does the edge forest go through versus the core6 forest?7 Well, the edge forest has additional sun slight,8 A. higher temperatures, greater exposure to wind, greater9 exposure to drought because the canopy is subject to10 wind, trees get blown over in storms. So the soil loses11 its moisture more easily. The, the forest canopy is12 what creates the conditions, the interior forest13 conditions and if you're to far, to close to an edge you14 lose those conditions and once you lose those conditions15 insect populations change. Forest understory plant16 population change, you get lots of weeds, alien species17 invade from people's backyards. You get all those18 predators that I talked about venturing into the forest19 because they feel safe because the large predators that20 pray on Blue Jays and crows and squirrels and those21 types of things, they're gone.22 So you're saying over time there is a species23 Q. interchange in which edge species could dominate because24 there's very little forest left?25 20 That's right. Two different habitats. They're1 A. different as chalk and cheese. And, yeah, you just get2 a total changeover on the flora and fauna between the3 edge forest and the core forest. An edge forest is sort4 of, you know, like a little bit bigger than a hedgerow5 in a farm field. It's not a forest, it's just edge.6 Is there --7 Q. Supports things like raccoons and crows and deer8 A. and woodchucks and all the things that live with people.9 None of the sensitive species.10 And what species typically would live in the core11 Q. forest that would be lost once it converts to edge?12 Well, I gave you three special concern species13 A. that probably are there, you know, if you were to go14 look, and there would be a lot more. All sorts of15 species of forest warblers, long distance migratory16 birds. There would be a lot more

s13 A. that probably are there, you know, if you were to go14 look, and there would be a lot more. All sorts of15 species of forest warblers, long distance migratory16 birds. There would be a lot more of the various17 salamander species, because the soils remain moist, so18 red-backed salamanders and other woodland salamanders.19 There would be a whole series of species that suffer20 once you lose those core forest conditions. But as I21 said before, it's important to recognize that you lose a22 lot of species, they just don't happen to be species on23 the threatened and endangered list because, you know,24 first we haven't searched this forest for threatened and25

05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM Page 21 to 24 of 116 6 of 48 sheets 21 endangered species, so we don't know if there are any1 there, but also it's unlikely there are any threatened2 or endangered species there because usually you have to3 get upwards of 300, 400 acres of forest to start4 accumulating those most sensitive threatened and5 endangered species. But doesn't mean that special6 concern species aren't important. They're next on the7 list and we're losing them. All of their population is8 declining in New Jersey, every one of those special9 concerned species, that's why they're called special10 concern and endangered. We're in danger of losing them11 in the near future.12 What's the primary loss of decline of these13 Q. species?14 Forest fragmentation development and the creation15 A. of edge as opposed to forest interior.16 Now, you familiar with Mr. Defeo's presentation?17 Q. Uh-huh.18 A. Now, Mr. Defeo spoke about the goal of putting19 Q. deer fencing, basically creating two sides of forest20 outside of the area of disturbance. Is that process Mr.21 Defeo speaks about, putting those fences up to encourage22 new understory, going to halt the creation of edge23 forest as you described it?24 No, that will, if those fences are effective and25 A. 22 last for decades and actually prevent deer from1 monitoring every time a tree falls down, that will have2 some impact on the regeneration of forest understory.3 But that has nothing to do with ameliorating the4 fragmentation, the extra sunlight, extra wind, soil5 moisture decline, all those other factors, that has6 nothing to go do with it. So even if we had no deer in7 New Jersey we could still have all our problems of the8 forest fragmentation and loss of core forest.9 So the deer fencing will not address this problem10 Q. at all?11 Not at all. Not one bit.12 A. MR. AFRAN: One moment, please.13 Can you also just explain why the remainder core14 Q. forest in magenta would not be sufficient to maintain15 their ecological processes?16 Well, certain ecological processes would still be17 A. occurring in those magenta areas but the species that18 require forest, core forest, they involve the tiny19 little patches of forest like that. They're20 territories, they're much larger than a handful of acres21 and so they do support the population of core forest22 species. There's just not enough space. They're just23 jammed into

ike that. They're20 territories, they're much larger than a handful of acres21 and so they do support the population of core forest22 species. There's just not enough space. They're just23 jammed into small areas, they don't even have the size24 necessarily of one or two breeding territories.25 23 As an analogy, and you talked about this, I am1 Q. not sure it's a proper biological concept, but is there2 any analogy between edge and core forest and barrier3 beach and interior base and things like that?4 So you're asking me about a barrier beach habitat5 A. versus a --6 I mean, barrier beach absorb --7 Q. -- natural water habitat?8 A. Barrier beach absorb wind, they absorb salt,9 Q. things of that nature and the echo system behind them is10 much different, does the edge in a sense protect the11 core in the same way?12 So the analogy that you're speaking of is13 A. obviously there's the ocean, which is saltwater, and14 it's windy and, you know, it's a harsh environment, so15 as you move inland on a barrier beach you go from a16 grassland to a shrub land, the black cherry and poison17 ivy, and then when you get a couple hundred yards back18 from the beach you start to get juniper trees and holly19 trees and you end up with a forest because the impact of20 the ocean is ameliorated as you move inland and so the21 same thing is true here. The development is an22 incredibly harsh unsuitable environment and it causes23 things to be happening on the edge of the forest and24 those things progressively march inland until you get a25 24 certain distance from the disturbance and that in this1 type of forest is generally considered to be 300 feet.2 Many of our regulations talk about 300 feet in terms of3 protecting forest quality.4 Now, I understand there's some who feel the edge5 Q. is actually much larger, 1,500 feet for example, you're6 using 300 feet. Can you explain why you're choosing7 that number?8 I'm choosing 300 feet because eastern deciduous9 A. forests tend to, you know, that's about three or four10 for the height, that's about the height of three or four11 trees combined. So if a tree on the edge blows down the12 sunlight comes in, the next tree comes down, after a13 decade you have enough gap forming and sunlight and wind14 that you, until you get 300 feet from where all that15 started, that's how you lose your forest processes.16 Now, there are other things

a13 decade you have enough gap forming and sunlight and wind14 that you, until you get 300 feet from where all that15 started, that's how you lose your forest processes.16 Now, there are other things that you would use lose,17 much larger buffer size. For instance, if you had a18 vernal pond here that's breeding rare vernal pond19 obligate species like spring peepers or wood frogs,20 generally, you know, there's a lot of debate over this21 but for example, states that have really good forest22 regulations say that a vernal pond needs a 1,000 foot23 buffer. New Jersey has no regulations. So, you know,24 people who do forestry in New Jersey don't protect25

7 of 48 sheets Page 25 to 28 of 116 05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM 25 vernal ponds for developers.1 But use the 300 foot as sort of a conservative2 Q. measure?3 Well, 300 foot is what it should be for this4 A. forest type. If we were in the Pine Barrens of New5 Jersey, the forest ecology is very different and the6 buffer would be much less. Might only be 100 feet,7 because it's already a sunny, dry forest, it doesn't8 have that, that shady, cool canopy. It's not cool and9 green shade, to quote the John Denver song. So, if you10 have an open savanna where wildfires are and trees are11 far apart then you don't really get edge of grass.12 So that was my last question in terms of the13 Q. canopy. You mentioned earlier the canopy helps protect14 the core?15 Canopy creates --16 A. Could you explain that process?17 Q. Canopy creates the forest environment that the18 A. core forest species evolve in and that canopy has been19 here for thousands of years and now there's so little20 left and that's the point trying to protect those places21 where we still have canopy forest.22 Thank you.23 Q. MR. AFRAN: That covers my questions24 directly for the witness, Mr. Chairman.25 26 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.1 Mayor McCartney, do you have a question of Mr.2 DeVito on his testimony?3 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Thank you, Chairman.4 Good evening. So in the testimony that we have5 heard so far I understand the proposed application is6 120 acres, 25 of that is steep slope and 61 is7 developable and the testimony we heard was that they8 were going to disturb 27.9. By looking at that stark9 red blotch is what you're calling proposed -- the10 proposed development area. That to me looks like a lot11 more than 27.9 acres. So I guess I feel a little --12 THE WITNESS: So the table there shows that13 the existing forest area is 1.3 and the post development14 forest area is 114. That comes out to be 29 acres. So15 the red is 29 acres. That's all done with GIS computer16 measuring. It's accurate. So that red blotch is 2917 acres. The problem is that by developing 29 acres you18 lose core forest conditions on 49 acres because of that19 300 foot. The development takes up 29 acres and then20 the 300 feet around the development takes another 2021 acres out of what we need for core forest conditions.22 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Thank you.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Klein, do you have any24 questions for Mr. DeVito on his

d the development takes another 2021 acres out of what we need for core forest conditions.22 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Thank you.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Klein, do you have any24 questions for Mr. DeVito on his testimony?25 27 MR. KLEIN: Sure.1 So to follow-up on that. So the red area, does2 that include, I believe there's going to be some3 landscaping added?4 THE WITNESS: Landscape is irrelevant. The5 forest -- you want to have core forest. You need6 undisturbed forest 300 feet away from any disturbance.7 Landscaping is completely irrelevant.8 MR. KLEIN: You can't plant back?9 THE WITNESS: You can't plant forest. Once10 you disturb the forest it's gone.11 MR. KLEIN: Not forest edge. You're12 measuring 300 feet from the edge of the red. Should you13 go in a little bit because there's, I don't know, like14 let's say 50 feet of landscaping?15 THE WITNESS: No, because that's not going to16 create any kind of canopy. It's just going to be17 scattered plants and that's just --18 MR. KLEIN: And that's not an edge?19 THE WITNESS: Well that's, no, I'm talking20 about the edge of the actual forest. Landscaping is no21 different -- whatever you do for a landscaping is no22 different than somebody's lawn or somebody's shrubs or23 that's just development. That doesn't count toward any24 forest conditions.25 28 MR. AFRAN: I think there might some1 confusion with the word edge. The word edge refers to a2 forest but not the area of development?3 MR. KLEIN: Correct. But 300 feet in from4 the edge of the mature forest is where the core starts?5 THE WITNESS: That's right.6 MR. KLEIN: If you were to disturb something7 within the core you couldn't, you couldn't -- you can't8 replant within the 300 foot edge to create more edge?9 THE WITNESS: So --10 MR. KLEIN: Enhance the edge.11 THE WITNESS: So one way to enhance it, it12 might be possible to enhance an edge to some kind of13 degree by planting, for example, evergreens that keep14 sunlight out, you know, out of the forest. But that15 doesn't do anything for the crows, the Blue Jays, the16 squirrels, all the predators, all the weeds that are17 going to come from people's yards. So you might be able18 to mitigate that problem of extra sunlight and extra19 wind a little bit but, plus you would have to plant --20 in order to do that and not let those processes begin,21 you would have to plant, you know, Norway spruces that22 are already 40

ht and extra19 wind a little bit but, plus you would have to plant --20 in order to do that and not let those processes begin,21 you would have to plant, you know, Norway spruces that22 are already 40 or 50 feet tall which you can't do. If23 you plant something that's six feet tall it's doing24 nothing.25

05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM Page 29 to 32 of 116 8 of 48 sheets 29 MR. KLEIN: Until they mature.1 THE WITNESS: Until it grows. By that time2 this is already over with.3 MR. KLEIN: Does the building itself create4 any kind of barrier for wind and weather to protect it?5 THE WITNESS: Well I, I would imagine a6 building smack up against the forest would, depending on7 which way the wind blows would occasionally be helpful.8 But, you know, there are so many aspects of this, in9 terms of all the critters that are coming to that10 building because of the fact that people, you know,11 crows, squirrels, raccoons, they come to the building12 because people are there and then they go into the13 forest and eat all the bird eggs and all the other core14 forest species.15 MR. KLEIN: So if -- so just in general, if16 a forest is only 600 feet deep it's not really a forest?17 THE WITNESS: That's right. Absolutely.18 That's exactly right. If you have a forest that's 60019 by 600 by 600, there's no forest there at all. You're20 going to get nothing but common edge species that live21 with people. All the things that live in everybody's22 backyard.23 MR. KLEIN: So if you expanded that zero24 forest into ten acres, is that a forest?25 30 THE WITNESS: So --1 MR. KLEIN: In other words, whatever the2 math is for --3 THE WITNESS: So if you have a forest that's4 600 feet square, there's no core forest. If you add 1005 feet all the way around on every side, now you have a6 little bit of core forest. I couldn't tell you the7 exact amount, but until you get to be 40, 50, 100 acres8 of core forest, it's not big enough for the core forest9 species to live.10 MR. KLEIN: So what's the smallest core11 forest?12 THE WITNESS: I would say if you have 5013 acres of core forest then you have a forest where forest14 interior species can survive. Box turtles, Wood15 Thrushes, smooth green snakes, worm-eating warblers,16 other birds, all sorts of butterflies and salamanders17 that need core forests. You have hundreds of species.18 MR. KLEIN: So that's a 50 acre plot of land19 with a 300 foot buffer?20 THE WITNESS: Of forest around.21 MR. KLEIN: Around.22 THE WITNESS: Right. That's very rare in23 this part of the world and that's what we have here.24 So let's clarify, if I can. What is the existing25 Q. 31 forest in the terms of acreage as it stands now?1 58 acres.2 A. So basically in answer to Mr.