April 30, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

part of the world and that's what we have here.24 So let's clarify, if I can. What is the existing25 Q. 31 forest in the terms of acreage as it stands now?1 58 acres.2 A. So basically in answer to Mr. Klein's question,3 Q. basically we have the smallest core forest now?4 That's right. And, you know, that's why it's so5 A. rare in this part of the world. There's almost no6 patches this big that's left. Now, you do have some7 bigger patches in the wetlands, you know, along the8 Passaic River, East Orange Water Reserve, that kind of9 place, but those are mostly wetland forests, different10 habitat, different species for the most part.11 MR. AFRAN: I didn't mean to interrupt, I'm12 sorry.13 MR. KLEIN: That's fine.14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Wilkes, any questions15 for Mr. DeVito on his testimony?16 MR. WILKES: No additional questions. No.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Alper, do you have any18 questions?19 MR. ALPER: Sure.20 Dr. DeVito, I think you covered some of this,21 does deer fencing protect at all from the edge, does it22 make it a harder for the edge predators or are they23 small enough to slip in?24 THE WITNESS: They climb and, yeah, they25 32 just, you know, they either fly or climb. I mean, a1 raccoon might have a little trouble but the first branch2 that falls up against the fence that doesn't get swept3 away, you know, the next day, the raccoons are going to4 be in there because raccoons are looking at the forest5 going, I got to get in there.6 MR. ALPER: Do you have an opinion on7 whether or not this forest is healthy?8 THE WITNESS: I can only see the forest from9 the edges since I'm in the streets and people's10 backyards and all that sort of thing. The canopies11 intact, that's the most important thing. I mean,12 healthy is a terrible word for a forest, that's a human13 word, people are healthy. A forest is a dynamic system,14 trees live, they die, they fall, they regenerate. Now,15 everywhere in New Jersey there's a bit of a problem with16 deer, right. So, you know, you want to do things that17 might promote native tree regeneration, but most of the18 trees in this forest can live for 350 years. It's only19 120 years old. So you got a long time to fix those20 other problems. You know, hopefully the science and21 restoration ecology is working on being able to fix22 those things long before our time runs out.23 MR. ALPER: Is there anything you

o fix those20 other problems. You know, hopefully the science and21 restoration ecology is working on being able to fix22 those things long before our time runs out.23 MR. ALPER: Is there anything you would24 recommend that could ameliorate any of the problems25

9 of 48 sheets Page 33 to 36 of 116 05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM 33 there?1 THE WITNESS: So I mentioned the one thing2 that would, I wish, I was always trying to get power3 companies to plant Norway spruces or white pines or big4 evergreens on the southern edges of their, of their5 power line cuts because the sun comes in from the south,6 right. Because the sun, since we're in the northern7 hemisphere, so if you plant southern exposure with dense8 plantings of evergreens eventually over time that will9 limit the amount of sunlight coming in which dries10 everything out. That's one of the worst things. The11 problem is that, that takes an immense amount of time,12 you know, because you can't plant big things. So now,13 had somebody, had somebody planted those things, you14 know, 50 years ago around the edge of this whole place15 then you would have more core forest from the point of16 view of sun and wind, but not from predators.17 MR. ALPER: In the spirit of, you said the18 best kind of planting today, is it worthwhile, is it19 that condition that would make sense that would be20 helpful down the road a few years to plant a bunch of21 tall trees eventually on the southern edges?22 THE WITNESS: That's always helpful. If you23 have an edge it's always good to try and prevent the24 sunlight from getting in.25 34 MR. ALPER: Thank you.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ms. Kapferer, do you have2 any questions of Dr. DeVito on his testimony?3 MS. KAPFERER: Yes. Thank you Chairman and4 thank you Dr. DeVito.5 Can you speak to other benefits, maybe other6 benefits of core forests? You've spoken to some7 already, but.8 THE WITNESS: Well, I mean this particular9 forest has maturing trees that are going to live a long10 time and we know from recent studies that the trees here11 in northern New Jersey, the red oaks, the hickories, the12 maples, very sequestered carbon faster than they ever13 have before and there is a lot of frankly garbage out14 there about you have to cut down the trees when they get15 to be 100 years old because, you know, the forest isn't16 healthy. That's because red oaks are incredibly17 valuable and the timber industry is trying to think up18 reasons why you have to cut down 100 year old trees.19 They're going to live another 200 years and they're20 going to sequester incredible amounts of carbon and21 they're going to do it for another good 100 years. And22 that's the

wn 100 year old trees.19 They're going to live another 200 years and they're20 going to sequester incredible amounts of carbon and21 they're going to do it for another good 100 years. And22 that's the most important, right. If you're going to23 fight climate changes we have to fight it now, not by24 planting a bunch of little trees. By the time they grow25 35 up and sequester carbon, usable amounts of carbon,1 battles going to be over. We have to fight climate2 change now by not cutting down mature trees and most of3 the carbon is sequestered in the roots and in the soil.4 And so, you know, when you plant a bunch of little trees5 it takes 50 or 60 years before you even break even,6 never mind actually start gaining carbon. So right now7 what we should be doing in New Jersey is protecting our8 mature forest and there's this thing about a young9 forest initiative, which is a bunch of smoke screens10 made up by the Fish and Wildlife Agency because they11 want more deer and more huntable species and so they're12 saying that we need to be logging our forests in order13 to create healthy forests, which is absolutely garbage.14 MS. KAPFERER: Is there any difference in15 your experience between edge forest and core forest as16 far as drainage and stormwater runoff?17 THE WITNESS: So over time there would be a18 difference because alien plants such as Japanese19 Stiltgrass and garlic mustard and all these species come20 in on the edge. They have their annuals or short lived21 perennials and they have really weak root systems and22 lots of erosion starts to occur when you lose the native23 woody understory and the native woody root mass in favor24 of all these alien species that don't secure the soil25 36 and so in the winter time you get tremendous amounts of1 runoff and the soil gets carried away. So that's a2 problem. That appears to be a huge problem, even in all3 of our wild areas where there's a lot of forest that's4 grown up of agricultural soil. This is not here.5 There's post agricultural forest which is a forest that6 has grown up that were farms until World War 1 or World7 War 2 and they look like forests, but the understory is8 nothing but alien weeds and they don't hold the soil9 because they're short lived annual plants and they have10 no root systems, but that's not here. This forest has,11 even though it's deer browsed, those root systems are12 still

ey don't hold the soil9 because they're short lived annual plants and they have10 no root systems, but that's not here. This forest has,11 even though it's deer browsed, those root systems are12 still intact and the soil is still intact, it's never13 been disturbed and that's really important.14 MS. KAPFERER: Thank you.15 That's it for me.16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I have a question. So17 what would you do?18 THE WITNESS: What would I do?19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: With that piece of land,20 what would you do?21 THE WITNESS: Find the money and save it. I22 know that's hard to do, but that's what I would try to23 do.24 MAYOR McCARTNEY: And it's not for sale.25

05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM Page 37 to 40 of 116 10 of 48 sheets 37 THE WITNESS: Everything's for sale all the1 time.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. MacNeill, do you have3 any questions of Dr. DeVito.4 MR. MacNEILL: No, I do not have any5 questions.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You have any questions,7 Mr. Haizel.8 MR. HAIZEL: Yes, I do. I am hoping I'm not9 asking the same question that's been posed before.10 THE WITNESS: That's fine.11 MR. HAIZEL: Looking at it from the opposite12 side, the other side, is there anything in the industry13 that's best practices so that say what we do now in14 design, green design, to help the, battle the impacts of15 global warming and warming climate change, is there16 anything on the building side in design that puts any17 sort of a dent in the impacts that the development in18 general could have?19 THE WITNESS: Well, that's not my field. I20 mean, obviously there are things that are done, right,21 to try to lessen the carbon footprint of the22 development, but I have no experience with any of that.23 All I am is a forest ecologist.24 MR. HAIZEL: Fair enough. Thank you.25 38 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker, do you have1 any questions?2 MR. PLOCKER: Just a couple.3 Dr. DeVito, thank you very much for your4 testimony.5 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.6 MR. PLOCKER: I just have a couple of7 questions. From a ecological or forestry point of view,8 is there any portion of the West Orange ordinances that9 the application doesn't require?10 THE WITNESS: I'm not aware --11 MR. PLOCKER: That apply to this job.12 THE WITNESS: I am not aware of having to do13 with ordinances that there's anything that protects the14 species that are here, the trees that are here, the soil15 that's here. I do know that the West Orange Master Plan16 encourages the protection of biodiversity and natural17 resources, but I don't believe there's any ordinance18 that specifically, you know, is a pinch point, so to19 speak.20 MR. PLOCKER: And just since you referenced21 the West Orange Master Plan, do you know if this22 particular property is mentioned in the current West23 Orange Master Plan?24 THE WITNESS: I was told that it has been the25 39 target of, you know, aspirations to be preserved. I1 don't know if it's specific to block and lot or anything2 like that.3 MR. PLOCKER: So you have read the West4 Orange Master Plan about this property being zoned for5 this particular

o be preserved. I1 don't know if it's specific to block and lot or anything2 like that.3 MR. PLOCKER: So you have read the West4 Orange Master Plan about this property being zoned for5 this particular development?6 THE WITNESS: No, not zoned. No.7 MR. PLOCKER: Okay. Thank you.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Do any members of the9 public have any questions for Dr. DeVito on his10 testimony, please raise your hand, come up and be11 identified.12 Any members of the public have any13 questions? Please raise your hand and come up. You14 only have three minutes to ask questions. Got right15 ahead.16 THE PUBLIC: Victor Misarti, M-I-S-A-R-T-I.17 So I have a question about the deer fence. So my18 question is about the deer fence. Some other testimony19 was saying that this was unhealthy forest because20 there's only big trees and no small trees or no --21 THE WITNESS: That's not true. That's not22 true that there are no small trees. There are -- there23 is a very, very young age class that's rather sparse but24 there's lots of mid sized trees that are 30, 40, 5025 40 years old that are ready to fill canopy gaps as they1 form.2 THE PUBLIC: Great. So, thank you for3 clearing that up.4 So my question about deer fence is if the5 deer fence is excluding all the deer from eating smaller6 trees or something, like I don't know if you could7 address that. I don't really understand that.8 THE WITNESS: Deer fence -- I put up many9 deer fences, I put one in 30 years ago at Watchung10 Reservation and inside the deer fence there's a lot of11 species that have colonized that area because the deer12 can't get in and deer fences work in terms of allowing13 herbaceous plants and native shrubs like viburnums and I14 spice bush and witch hazel to be able to grow tall.15 Right now those species are there but they're browsed16 and they're tiny because they keep getting browsed and17 the deer fence would allow them to flush up and grow18 bigger, just like if you have fenced something in a19 vegetable garden. But in terms of trees, the deer fence20 would have to last, to make a difference, the deer fence21 would have to last for not just these trees but the sub22 canopy that's already there and the young trees that are23 30 or 40 years old they're not being bothered by the24 deer, they're going to grow up and fill the canopy. So25

11 of 48 sheets Page 41 to 44 of 116 05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM 41 for a deer fence to impact the canopy of this forest1 that fence would have to be up for 150 to 200 years, and2 that's not going to happen, right. There's nobody on3 God's green earth that's going to maintain a fence for4 150 to 200 years.5 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, sir.7 Do any other members of the public have any8 questions for Dr. DeVito? Please raise your hand and9 come up and be identified. Seeing none. Thank you Dr.10 -- I'm sorry, go ahead.11 MR. WILNER: Mr. Afran had to step out so I12 am an associate with him. My name is Steven Sachs13 Wilner. I'm an attorney at law in the State of New14 Jersey, and there's been some discussion regarding15 mitigation of the affects of the development. Is there16 any mitigation that would, unless it created a core17 forest of 50 acres, that would make any difference for18 the core forest?19 THE WITNESS: I want to make sure I20 understand your question. If we use general principles21 for this type upland eastern deciduous oak, hickory22 forest that edge effect go in 300 feet and ruin interior23 forest conditions. Then if this development footprint24 is put where it's proposed you might, like I said, you25 42 might be able to ameliorate some things by planting1 incredibly large white pines or Norway spruce or things2 that are long lived and cascade shade in order to keep3 the sunlight from entering into the forest. But I don't4 think you can do it over a time frame when it would make5 a difference, because you can't plant ones that are big6 enough and other than that you can't do anything. Core7 forest, if you -- if you have a development within 3008 feet of, anything within 300 feet of a development is no9 longer core forest. That's a ecological fact, right.10 That's why we're looking at all the species because11 interior species need core forest and they hardly have12 any of it in this part of New Jersey and so they're13 disappearing.14 MR. WILNER: And even --15 THE WITNESS: And there's nothing you can16 do.17 MR. WILNER: Even those trees however, only18 do a partial mitigation?19 THE WITNESS: Yeah, you're mitigating just20 one thing which is sunlight and therefore the21 temperature and the drying soil conditions, right.22 MR. Wilner: And with 50 acres of core23 forest could you in any way have a 29 acre development24 and have a

g which is sunlight and therefore the21 temperature and the drying soil conditions, right.22 MR. Wilner: And with 50 acres of core23 forest could you in any way have a 29 acre development24 and have a core forest left that is, that functions as a25 43 core forest?1 THE WITNESS: I haven't done the math, if2 all of the development was put on one edge, so that you3 leave a -- because right now the development is gutting4 the interior of the forest, right. So, you know, it's5 total conversion to non forest right in the middle of6 the core forest. If all the development is somehow7 pushed to one edge, then I could, you know, figure out8 how many acres of core forest would be left and I don't9 know if it would approach 20 acres, but, you know, you10 could have a completely different site plan. But I11 don't think you can because you have wetlands on the12 western side and steep slopes I think somewhere on the13 eastern side. So where the development is put,14 obviously all the numbers change, but doesn't look to me15 like you can protect the core forest at this site if you16 develop it.17 MR. WILNER: That's all I have.18 Mr. Afran, now that you're back, do you want19 to --20 Well, I have one follow-up question actually for21 Q. Dr. DeVito. I know there's a member of the public ahead22 of me, but Dr. DeVito, in terms of the edge versus the23 base flora, what's the relationship of invasive plant24 species to the edge? Is there a relationship we should25 44 know about?1 There are a greater number of alien plant species2 A. that colonize the edge than colonize the shade of the3 interior of the forest. Alien species like soil4 disturbance, they like drought, they like heat, they5 like sunlight, they like elevated pH, which is a lower6 acidity. They also like all the things that are caused7 by the creation of an edge and being put up against an8 urban landscape, which many of those species actually9 come from the urban landscape. They're transported by10 landscapers, they carry weeds all over the place, they11 dump weeds all over the place.12 So in terms of the question that was given before13 Q. -- I'm sorry.14 So there's more species, greater density of those15 A. species because of the extra sunlight. Again, they like16 the sunlight, they like the draught, they're better17 competitors in harsh conditions. They're not sensitive.18 Forest species are sensitive, alien

es because of the extra sunlight. Again, they like16 the sunlight, they like the draught, they're better17 competitors in harsh conditions. They're not sensitive.18 Forest species are sensitive, alien and invasive19 species, that's why we call them weeds because they're20 not sensitive, especially near people.21 So in terms of what you're referring to in terms22 Q. of the question earlier about water retention, and23 you're speaking to the fact that the native root mass24 has a greater role in water retention than alien root25