April 30, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM Page 69 to 72 of 116 18 of 48 sheets 69 And how long have you been on the faculty of The1 Q. College of New Jersey?2 16 years.3 A. And are you -- what's your rank?4 Q. Associate professor.5 A. Thank you.6 Q. MR. AFRAN: We offer Professor Butler for7 the purposes described.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Have you been to this9 forest?10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Well, not in it, but to11 it.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Surrounding it?13 THE WITNESS: Yes.14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So your testimony is from15 the periphery of the forest and mostly based on16 hypothesis of what is going on inside the forest?17 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah. I have18 observations of -- so I do know some things about what's19 going on and then I am also, I do have predictions I am20 going to make based on what I have seen, things that I21 had not, what would be seen if somebody were to do an22 extensive study.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: But you haven't done an24 extensive study?25 70 THE WITNESS: No.1 MR. AFRAN: The purpose of his testimony is2 to speak to the effect of human disturbance on an3 existing forest in terms of its relationship to the4 avian life that's typically seen in the forest. So that5 obviously one can't study the destructive effects until6 the documents developed and it's built but the purpose7 is to speak to what happens in the life cycles of these8 animals. In terms of human disturbance it's relevant9 for the need of an ecological study in the settlement10 agreement and the ordinance.11 MR. PLOCKER: Bruce, can you point to where12 there's a need for an ecological study?13 Sorry, Chairman.14 MR. AFRAN: The settlement agreement states15 that there shall be an environmental review conducted by16 William Defeo of this project and does not limit it in17 any way to any particular area of environmental impact.18 And therefore if the forest will disappear, as prior19 witnesses have said and made clear, then the impact on20 wildlife in that forest is obviously relevant to an21 environmental review that the settlement mandates.22 MR. PLOCKER: Okay. I believe that's taking23 a very bias view of the settlement agreement, Mr. Afran.24 MR. AFRAN: Mr. Plocker --25 71 MR. PLOCKER: I'm not done talking.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm2 going to ask, this is a colloquy between two attorneys.3 They're great advocates.4 One at a time gentlemen.5 Mr. Plocker.6 MR. PLOCKER: Just for the record,

CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm2 going to ask, this is a colloquy between two attorneys.3 They're great advocates.4 One at a time gentlemen.5 Mr. Plocker.6 MR. PLOCKER: Just for the record, there is7 nothing that requires an ecological study in the8 settlement agreement or ordinance.9 MR. AFRAN: I have the settlement agreement10 and it expressly requires an environmental review by Mr.11 Defeo. Does not limit it solely to the question of a12 deer fence. It requires an environmental review.13 Period. And those words are unequivocal and they are14 within the scope of what we're and what we're offering15 is within the scope of that.16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm trying to parse the17 language so the Board hears more, the public hears more18 information besides the trees are gone because19 something's built there and there would be less birds.20 MR. AFRAN: I'm not sure it would be that21 trivial a presentation.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: But if there are less23 trees there's probably less birds.24 MR. AFRAN: If you destroy forest you25 72 destroy the capacity of bird species to engage in formal1 life histories.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: As the expert said before,3 we're not talking destruction. Those aren't the words4 we're going to use, so there's going to be less core5 forest, using his words. Okay. So there's less volume6 of something where birds live. I'm not trying to7 overcome what's going on, I'm trying to have the Board8 understand the value of the information and the public9 the value of the information.10 MR. AFRAN: Well, you have two types of11 forest, forest edge and core. As the edge grows the12 types of species change and that was made clear by Mr.13 DeVito -- Dr. DeVito. So clearly when you can convert14 core to edge, which is what the prior witness spoke to,15 you're going to have species change and interchange.16 It's not just at matter of losing numbers, it's a matter17 of the environmental impact from this development that18 will cause this species interchange and changes in the19 nature of what lives here.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: And I think, the public21 will correct me if I am wrong, the public is interested22 in trees and I don't want to make less of the turtle, a23 snake or salamander, but as we look at this the Planning24 Board is looking at the effect of trees and carbon25