April 30, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

25 of 48 sheets Page 97 to 100 of 116 05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM 97 wetlands and whether after the development, obviously1 the wetlands can't be touched, but development in the2 area, would they stay or would they likely leave?3 THE WITNESS: Water thrush's are probably4 there and probably the swamp sparrows. Those are off5 the top of my head. The ones that, that I expect to see6 in that wetlands, water thrush's and swamp sparrows are7 two I can think of. Neither of which are endangered8 either.9 And then migratory birds are known to be10 attracted to water sources when migrating, so you might11 not see a change in the species that are using the site12 for breeding, but you might see an effect on the13 migrants using this site as a stopover site because as14 they're flying in so when the birds choose habitats they15 kind of do it hierarchically. They look for something16 of broad scale, especially if they're migrating a couple17 thousand feet up in the air. As they're looking and18 using visual cues to decide where to land and if they're19 able to make a decision not just running out of fuel.20 But once do they get into a parcel of land to refuel and21 regain water then they move around the habitat and they22 try to find the resources they need. So they're very23 migratory birds and are very good at finding water they24 need to refresh their water source. So that would be25 98 the effect that would be difficult to detect. You have1 to be watching that specific microhabitat during2 migration on the morning the migrating birds landing,3 they migrate at night, and look to see. Yeah, but you4 can -- there's ways to do it. You can also set up nets5 and do surveys by capturing them as they come through.6 MR. ALPER: And across the whole site of the7 development is there anything that can be done to8 ameliorate the change of the bird species?9 THE WITNESS: Like if the development were10 to go in, sure. If you had people pulling out nonnative11 species that are going to invade which is a very large12 lift logistically, that's a bad pun. Very large lift13 that would probably help. Because a lot of these14 species provide food sources for migratory birds. Other15 than that, it's really hard to -- its really hard to16 overcome a loss of space.17 One other note, going back to these graphs18 to kind of point to that. So the relationship here is a19 very strong relationship

it's really hard to -- its really hard to16 overcome a loss of space.17 One other note, going back to these graphs18 to kind of point to that. So the relationship here is a19 very strong relationship across these forest species as20 you get, as you get -- as you create parcels of land21 below certain sizes the numbers of birds just drop-off22 and this is a large study, a large sample done over five23 years at almost 500 sample sites. It's a very robust24 data set, and what it's showing is that there's just a25 99 amount of space that's very strong and slender for what1 happens to the organisms that are there. Other things2 that matter are the habitat quality within the state and3 typical resources, like water, and on a microscale these4 things do matter and that's why there is uncertainty,5 especially in smaller spaces. You see how the certainty6 bars, which are sort of the dashed lines that are7 flanking the centerline, they're much bigger and smaller8 patches. You get smaller patches so the species occurs9 there but many small patches just through the random10 sampling aren't going to handle the creature. Whereas11 if you get a big enough site there's a certainty that12 you're going to find those species there in many or some13 spaces because big sites have everything they need.14 MR. AFRAN: For the record, Professor Butler15 was using the slide with the four graphs. Four species16 next to each other.17 MR. ALPER: Thank you.18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ms. Kapferer, any19 questions for Professor Butler on his testimony?20 MS. KAPFERER: I don't have any questions.21 MR. KLEIN: Mr. Chairman.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Klein.23 MR. KLEIN: Have you ever testified as an24 expert for a development?25 100 THE WITNESS: I have never been asked.1 MR. KLEIN: Have you ever testified before2 as an objector, before tonight?3 THE WITNESS: Where?4 MR. KLEIN: For another site plan5 application.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: And Planning Board or7 Zoning Board?8 MR. KLEIN: Anywhere in New Jersey.9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, they tried to put a10 parking lot right next to my house in Pennsylvania.11 MR. KLEIN: Any other in New Jersey?12 THE WITNESS: No. Not in New Jersey, no.13 MR. KLEIN: So this is the first time you14 are testifying as an expert in this -- for an objector?15 THE WITNESS: Yes.16 MR. KLEIN: Okay. Thanks.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Are these birds presently18 on this site?19 THE WITNESS: The only

t time you14 are testifying as an expert in this -- for an objector?15 THE WITNESS: Yes.16 MR. KLEIN: Okay. Thanks.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Are these birds presently18 on this site?19 THE WITNESS: The only -- I didn't detect20 any of those.21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So it's a hypothesis that22 they're there? You didn't detect them in your two hours23 limited time, limited space, but in two hours you24 observed 20 other species, you did not observe any of25