April 30, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM Page 109 to 112 of 116 28 of 48 sheets 109 good so they come back. They're not going to be in the1 exact territory they were in, they're going to try to2 get a neighboring territory in the closest patch of3 woods. It would be a disrupted social environment when4 they come back in for sure.5 And assuming they're adaptive to the move to6 Q. another area, does that movement in concentration of7 more individuals in another areas impact the breeding8 capacity?9 That's hard to predict. Basically what you're10 A. doing is increasing breeding density before the event11 and so resources might go up, you also might have12 increased agonistic interactions among territory holders13 because they're bumping into each more than they14 normally would. It's a really interesting question what15 would happen, but I don't think we know the answer. We16 can just think about what it would be like to cram more17 birds into that space. That would only last a little18 while because moving into these smaller, these19 neighboring spaces they'll almost definitively have20 lower reproductive success due to lack of density. They21 don't have as much space as they need, so they might22 nest, might have smaller territories that year but23 overall their reproductive success is likely almost24 definitely less than what it would have been if25 110 distributed by the natural distribution. So after those1 fails they're less likely to return. So they did make2 babies who then don't come back or they have experience3 of failing and so they move on and that's one of the4 common things about nest failure birds is, it is very5 experienced based. If they fail they'll often make a6 change. It starts out not nesting in the exact same7 patch habitat to then moving to a different site.8 Thank you.9 Q. One last question to clarify, the four species on10 the four graphs that are on the screen now, the graph11 that is four together, are those offered as an example12 or is that what happens to species as size goes down or13 is it only these four species you're concerned about?14 No, this is just, this paper studied all the15 A. species, all breeding birds they could detect. I think16 the total number may be 780 species. I just clipped17 their figure from their paper. So they had tables of18 data from all the species they studied and this is just19 a figure that they put together,

the total number may be 780 species. I just clipped17 their figure from their paper. So they had tables of18 data from all the species they studied and this is just19 a figure that they put together, because as you can see20 in the figure it's for common forest interior species.21 So they just wanted to highlight those in their22 presentation.23 So this is an exemplar but it's not meant to be24 Q. exclusive of the effect? In other words, this is an25 111 example of using four species, it is not meant to say1 this effect is limited to these four?2 Definitely not. I think they used these figures3 A. for the same reason that I did. I used it as a4 presentation. You know, these are common species that5 should be in this area in a natural woodland habitat6 that should be here. And so they're common, they're7 specific to that habitat and they presented them in one8 of their papers for the same reason I did.9 Thank you.10 Q. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Any members of the public11 have any questions for Dr. Butler, please raise your12 hand?13 THE PUBLIC: Faith Singelis,14 S-I-N-G-E-L-I-S. I have a question about the effects of15 the building actually on the site because I know that16 there is a building here in New Jersey nearby where17 during migration the lights from the building and the18 glass, it's on a site where thousands of birds die by19 crashing into the building and I wonder, because this20 forest patch now has no light and no glass, would that21 also affect the birds?22 THE WITNESS: So I don't know the heights of23 the buildings, I haven't seen that information and that24 plays into it for sure, and also exterior lighting and25 112 mostly what the birds are crashing into in this type of1 building is going to be windows. So they're going to2 see brick and mortar on parts of the building but the3 reason they cash into the windows at the angle they're4 flying, sometimes the windows look like the sky to them5 or look like the horizon, so they just -- they don't6 know. So it depends a lot on very site specific factors7 also or conditions of the windows relative to the flight8 paths that the birds are using between patches of9 forest, which again, I don't know, but that sets up a10 situation if you have birds trying to move between11 patches, especially this concept that we're going to12 save these trees, so I have these two sets of core13 forests on either side because

s up a10 situation if you have birds trying to move between11 patches, especially this concept that we're going to12 save these trees, so I have these two sets of core13 forests on either side because it's so gray, so if they14 are and they're creating -- and you're putting buildings15 right between, you know, the birds aren't going to use16 them or when they do they could face running into these17 buildings or could also have exposed face to be exposed18 to predators.19 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.20 THE WITNESS: Sure.21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Any other members of the22 public have any questions for Dr. Butler, please come23 forward? Seeing none.24 Thank you very much, Dr. Butler.25