June 30, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

n19 engineer you are equally capable.20 MR. MacNEILL: I am comfortable, as the21 board engineer, allowing the applicant to move forward22 in construction and completing soil construction during23 post construction which complies with Chapter 12 NJ BMP24 manual prepared by the NJ DEP.25 147 MR. AFRAN: Does that manual anticipate a1 situation where the board's engineer agrees with the2 objectors engineer that more testing should have been3 done?4 MR. PLOCKER: Objection. The permits have5 been appealed. The objector group has lodged an appeal6 in addition to a couple other organizations. That rests7 within the jurisdiction of Superior Court Appellate8 Division. Let them hear it, let them decide. It's not9 an issue for this board. The way Mr. MacNeill, the10 engineer, characterized it, that is acceptable to the11 applicant as a condition of approval during12 construction. So to waste time on this when clearly it13 is an issue that they have raised by the way of14 Princeton Hydro and over 200 objectors voiced their15 concerns during the approximately 18 month process that16 these permits sat at the DEP. So let it be in the17 jurisdiction where it's supposed to be.18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Before --19 MR. AFRAN: Our position is this board does20 have jurisdiction over this aspect of the plan, so we21 respectfully disagree.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We're going to, as a23 condition, evaluate everything that's presented before24 the board and we'll come up with a reasonable decision25 148 based on everybody's testimony.1 MR. KLEIN: One more question.2 So Mayor, you talked about, you said 10-foot3 -- the Canoe Brook is roughly 10-feet wide but can get4 as wide 150 yards wide when this flooding situation5 occurs. Do you have some sort of mapping that shows6 that? Is there some kind aerial photograph that you can7 document that?8 THE PUBLIC: Yes. Personal experience on9 this golf course so it's we'll marked. Right. So I10 have seen water. I also know because we own the water11 utility building exactly on that property. So I have12 seen surveys, I've seen property owners, I've seen when13 it rains. What I'm describing is 150 yards wide, that's14 basically looking at a regular storm, which I've seen15 multiple times from impacting the building in Essex16 Fells on the western side of the bank of Canoe Brook.17 Right. Water starts there, that's the flooding. Water18 on the other

rm, which I've seen15 multiple times from impacting the building in Essex16 Fells on the western side of the bank of Canoe Brook.17 Right. Water starts there, that's the flooding. Water18 on the other side of this ponding, this is just in that19 one area is basically before there's a golf hole there20 that I think is the first hole of the Essex Fells21 Country Club and basically it goes right up to that22 Green. So that distance, which I both observed, I know23 is the 150 yard marker next to it, so I know that. In24 addition I know through experience, I got a Google Maps25

08/07/2025 02:56:42 PM Page 149 to 152 of 175 38 of 70 sheets 149 sort of measurement of those two points which are1 actually, it's more than 150 yards. 150 yards is2 actually a conservative number. It could be 175 yards3 and, again, the point I'm referencing with that width is4 just kind of in the middle of the golf course but the5 flooding is at various breaths from Oval Road in West6 Orange, Essex Fells, Eagle Rock Avenue. So that entire7 width of the Canoe Brook the floodplain overflows.8 In addition I know from being a builder9 effectively, as the Mayor, the CEO of the water10 department, I know the wetlands in that area. They get11 basically -- I also know the wetlands in West Orange at12 this site, as you guys know. All these wetlands,13 everything, I have been told by experts that we employ14 is basically that is critical to maintaining our15 drinking waters.16 MR. PLOCKER: I'm going to object. He's17 basically saying what his own experts have concluded. I18 believe that would be improper.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. This is --20 MR. KLEIN: And the improvement, what is it,21 the $200,000 culvert improvement, that's going on Eagle22 Rock Avenue, the other end?23 THE PUBLIC: $200,000 figure is an estimate24 that we have done in our budget to basically budgeted25 150 for this. It's called Sewer Uplift Station. It's1 basically just a, it's a Sewer Uplift system. It's a2 pump --3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: This is beyond --4 MR. KLEIN: That's storm or sanitary?5 THE PUBLIC: Sanitary. And in addition the6 other reference, the culvert that I mentioned, that7 storm was the --8 MR. KLEIN: Stormwater on Oval Road or the9 other end?10 THE PUBLIC: Right. Border of East Orange11 and Essex Fells on Oval Road. Basically where the gate12 is. Again, to be precise, there's two culverts --13 MR. KLEIN: Where the Canoe Brook goes under14 Oval Road?15 THE PUBLIC: Where the Canoe Brook goes16 under Oval Road there's an access point to the Country17 Club where we can access our wells. In addition I could18 only presume it was built when the condos were19 developed. Right. So the detention basins there and20 the culvert. Again, part of the reason that's relevant,21 the existing conditions in West Orange, and I want you22 to understand and I'm begging you guys, think of this on23 a practical level. I understand all the legal24 arguments, let the lawyers do that, but your

ting conditions in West Orange, and I want you22 to understand and I'm begging you guys, think of this on23 a practical level. I understand all the legal24 arguments, let the lawyers do that, but your engineers25 151 specifically saying, we'll work it out. If there's more1 flooding than we expect, we'll make more demands. Well,2 look at the West Essex Condominium Association, the3 development. Your existing infrastructure you put in4 there 30 years ago is insufficient. What are you doing5 about it. Nothing.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You're testifying.7 THE PUBLIC: I'm asking a question. I'm8 saying to you guys in response to your question to me,9 I'm not an expert, I'm not pretending to be an expert.10 The facts are right before you. All I'm saying is look11 at them, don't ignore them and investigate to your12 satisfaction. Do not outsource it.13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mayor, thank you.14 Don't go away.15 Ms. Kapferer.16 MS. KAPFERER: Thank you Mayor for your17 testimony. And I am actually okay. I want to ask Mr.18 MacNeill a question.19 If there's soil testing and at that point20 it's determined the high groundwater is higher than what21 we've seen thus far in reports and what the, you know,22 what the stormwater design is based on, how is it23 addressed at that time?24 MR. MacNEILL: So they would immediately be25 152 issued a stop work order and their -- the applicants1 engineer would have to work with our office to come up2 with a plan that is now compliant with the stormwater3 regulations. So essentially they have to now raise the4 basin bottom by 10-feet. That will have impacts5 potentially to upstream on the development. So it will6 be back to the applicants engineer to resolve the7 issues, not the Township. The Township would8 essentially say the goundwater that you have certified9 under your geotechnical report is incorrect based on our10 inspections and our field investigations. If that is11 the, becomes -- if that happens then it would be a stop12 work order and the applicants engineer would have to13 resolve it with revised plans that show the resolution14 at issue.15 MS. KAPFERER: And that's my question then,16 what happens? And then we go back to permitting?17 MR. MacNEILL: So typically handled, and18 every project is different, right. So there's something19 like this to happen but one, it's either handled as a20 field change. They just need to raise the

17 MR. MacNEILL: So typically handled, and18 every project is different, right. So there's something19 like this to happen but one, it's either handled as a20 field change. They just need to raise the basin 2-feet21 to comply with the regulations. That's all handled,22 that's a field change or administrative approval23 potentially. If the situation happens were it's 15-feet24 higher than what they're saying in their geotechnical25

39 of 70 sheets Page 153 to 156 of 175 08/07/2025 02:56:42 PM 153 report and they have to raise their basin 15-feet, which1 then has impacts of building and stream, then that's an2 amended approval that they have to come back to the3 Planning Board for review. So if it's something very4 minor of its now 6-inches higher, than you have to raise5 your basin another 6-inches to comply with the6 regulations and then any upstream impacts you'll have to7 address as well.8 MR. KLEIN: Can I just follow up real quick.9 So what do they build first? When they're10 going to clear the site and clear the 30 acres, they're11 going to build the drainage system first and detention12 basin then the roads?13 MR. MacNEILL: Typically -- yeah. Typically14 --15 MR. KLEIN: Before they even start blasting16 rock?17 MR. MacNEILL: And that's all outlined and18 really defined in pre-construction meeting. So19 typically they're working on their BMPs, their subbase20 for their roadways. They're really focused more on21 rough grading for the pads, right. Doing their building22 pads then doing the roadways and the basin work before23 they're really coming back for anything with the24 building.25 154 MR. KLEIN: So sorry to get into the weeds1 but should they hold off on doing the building pads2 because the buildings might have to change elevation or3 change location?4 MR. MacNEILL: Yeah. I mean, that really5 will be on them to dictate on how they want to schedule6 their construction and taking that risk of if they do7 set a foundation and set a finished floor elevation and8 the basin is 10-feet higher than they would have to9 remove and elevate the building.10 MR. KLEIN: Okay. And what's the best time11 to get the most accurate elevation of the groundwater?12 MR. MacNEILL: So the wet season in the13 State of New Jersey is January through April.14 MR. KLEIN: And when did he do their --15 MR. MacNEILL: They have multiple testing16 done, I believe the report from Langan today they had17 testing done in April of this year. Again, they have18 borings that went 20-feet deep without ground water19 impound.20 And going back to the discrepancy that21 Princeton Hydro put out, so they essentially said22 there's no mottling found in a test pit that is adjacent23 to a wetland area. I do agree that it seems weird,24 right, that there's no mottling there and the seasonal25 155 high is higher than a nearby

here's no mottling found in a test pit that is adjacent23 to a wetland area. I do agree that it seems weird,24 right, that there's no mottling there and the seasonal25 155 high is higher than a nearby wetland area. But on top1 of that the geotechnical engineer who prepared the2 report reviewed his test pit and the soil composition3 and certified the seasonal high water table. It's --4 from a reviewing side you could have, maybe this doesn't5 look right, maybe that doesn't look right, but when a6 geotechnical engineer is signing that this is the7 seasonal high water table, we typically take that8 signature and take his license as him certifying to that9 seasonal high water table. Which is why soil testing,10 it's the hardest part of construction, in my opinion,11 for stormwater management. One geotechnical engineer12 could go out and call a seasonal water high table 1-feet13 higher and another geotechnical can go out and say it's14 4-feet lower. So geotechnical is almost subjective. I15 will say that is why DEP came out with the additional16 requirements during and post construction, because they17 know that initials just an idea of here's a rough18 seasonal high water table, this needs to be refined19 every step of the way to ensure compliance.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.21 Mayor McCartney? No.22 Vice Chair Guarino?23 VICE CHAIRMAN GUARINO: No questions.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Alper?25 156 MR. ALPER: Sure.1 Mayor, how many times has the 17 acre well2 field had flooding, say in the past five years?3 THE PUBLIC: I would say it's over a dozen.4 Not all 150 feet are in the floodplain but, and I would5 say it's definitely skewed towards the last five years6 in particular. Our experience with stormwater I think7 is similar to what West Orange experiences and the other8 towns in northern New Jersey, that's why regulations9 have been tightened. And so we are technically seeing10 heavier rainfall more frequent, significant rainfall11 events and we are seeing that on the ground and so as a12 result we are seeing some cases three times significant13 flooding where what I mentioned the one, it helps the14 board with a perspective of what I'm describing flooding15 of the buildings and floodplains. I do have, we could16 put on the board the video from December 2023 showing17 roughly like 150 yard breath of what I'm describing and18 sort of see Canoe Brook and see the

e buildings and floodplains. I do have, we could16 put on the board the video from December 2023 showing17 roughly like 150 yard breath of what I'm describing and18 sort of see Canoe Brook and see the property I'm talking19 about and how I got that, I'm told by some folks here20 they could give it to you guys.21 MR. FAGAN: You have to e-mail it to me and22 I have to have his permission.23 THE PUBLIC: Okay. We can do this manually24 if it helps the board see visually better than25

08/07/2025 02:56:42 PM Page 157 to 160 of 175 40 of 70 sheets 157 describing it.1 MR. ALPER: Have any of those floods caused2 your water pump to actually stop or slow by flooding so3 far?4 THE PUBLIC: So far, no. But it's a tough5 question because that pump currently is off. The pump6 is off since 2021 because it's contaminated by the7 PFOAs. The aquifer is contaminated basically. So as a8 result we're not allowed to deliver that water, so we9 have been using other wells that we own in the area. So10 as a result I would say the visual I'll show you, I'll11 submit it supplementally, will show you, I'll point out12 where the pump is and where the well is. You know, it's13 only about 50-feet deep but basically you'll see the14 water at the foundation of this well. If it goes above15 a certain level it's in the door of that facility.16 Basically then it's in the well, then we have to shut it17 down. So it would contaminate that particular well.18 We'd have to shut it down and look for guidance from the19 regulator, DEP.20 MR. ALPER: What about the road, part of21 Oval Road that comes close to, if not goes into Essex22 Fells, has that flooded?23 THE PUBLIC: Yes.24 MR. ALPER: How many times has Oval Road25 158 flooded there?1 THE PUBLIC: It's similar, not as frequent2 as just the Canoe Brook flooding because the road itself3 is a little bit higher, but not much. So I would say4 it's over a dozen times in general flooding. Oval Roads5 flooded at least five times. I am not there every6 storm, I am there frequently. When I get a resident7 concern I go out there because I like to see it for8 myself and yeah, I would estimate five or so for the9 road.10 In addition though part of the issue is11 greater than that, if you talk about -- talk about the12 Sewer Uplift Station, that's a little further, it's13 along Oval Road, it's in a culvert along the Country14 Club. There's a concrete channel in there basically15 that's necessary for the property of this sanitary sewer16 facility. Right. That concrete is basically17 compromised. The wall basically needs to reenforce the18 foundation, so that is not five storms worth of19 flooding. That is basically every time it rains there's20 a backup into that channel and basically it's slowly21 over long periods of time eroded the concrete. And so22 that's why it needs to be replaced. That's why we23 budgeted for it this year.24 MR.

's20 a backup into that channel and basically it's slowly21 over long periods of time eroded the concrete. And so22 that's why it needs to be replaced. That's why we23 budgeted for it this year.24 MR. ALPER: And in terms of past flooding,25 159 does it flood to the extent it interferes with the cars,1 the traffic?2 THE PUBLIC: Well, the roads closed between3 Essex Fells and West Orange. There's no flow through4 traffic. So it's emergency access only. The only one5 allowed to use the road, and again, I think came up in6 some questions, been this way for 30 years. This is not7 related to this application but the only people that go8 through that gate are pedestrians, are police and fire,9 mutual aid.10 MR. ALPER: Okay. Thank you.11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Cardoza?12 MR. CARDOZA: Thank you for the informative13 testimony. My colleagues on the board asked all my14 questions.15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Council Person Scarpa?16 COUNCIL PERSON SCARPA: Thank you, Mayor.17 No questions. I have concerns about stormwater and Oval18 Road safety and the ordinance as well as our19 responsibility as public officials, what specific plans20 would you like the developer and West Orange to provide21 to make sure that we are, your town is protected and I22 would like to see the video. I would like it to be put23 up at our next meeting so we can explore the24 knowledgeable concerns.25 160 THE PUBLIC: My immediate request is1 respectfully, I understand this is West Orange. Right.2 So it's up to this board to protect us and the West3 Orange residents and fellow community members. I4 believe you need to do more due diligence than you have5 done to date. I think specifically you demand this6 application provide you answers that have been raised by7 the public and by yourself over the days. Right. So8 for instance to me, despite the reference from the9 Borough engineer, I disagree basically that you10 discharge that obligation legally. The reality is11 nobody from West Orange has looked at the property just12 downhill in Essex Fells, Borough of Essex Fells and the13 water department owns. You can come any time you want.14 We'll arrange access when it rains, I will bring15 umbrellas, you can see it with me. I think that's16 required, as a public official that's required of me and17 I think that's a reasonable expectation for all of you18 and your experts. And by all means, I don't know