July 30, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

5 of 33 sheets Page 17 to 20 of 130 09/16/2025 06:29:53 AM 17 zoning district and you can't divide accessory uses from1 one zoning district to another. A use variance is2 required to run that road through the single family3 residential district in Lots 8 and 9. Therefore this4 application is not complete.5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker.6 MR. PLOCKER: Yes. I think Mr. Afran's7 characterization of the imposing emergency access to be8 used in emergencies only. I think it's a very much of a9 stretch to call that an accessory use. We can agree to10 disagree on the record here, but it is not an accessory11 use and it should not prohibit this board from approving12 the application with the approval of that emergency13 access. Thank you.14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran.15 MR. AFRAN: Our position is obviously16 there's nothing in the law that says an access road that17 is for emergency use somehow gets exempt from the zoning18 rules or from the need to get a use variance. There's19 absolutely no support in the MLUL or anywhere else to20 say that just because you're going to use it for21 emergency use you don't need the proper zoning or use22 variance. And if this becomes a legal issue we'll23 debate this later in this case or in court, but it24 requires a use variance, it's absolutely no exception25 18 just because it's intended for emergency access. In1 fact that renders it even more compelling a problem2 because emergency access means through the single family3 zone you're going to be running fire trucks, ambulances4 and possibly dozens or hundreds of cars leaving the site5 during an emergency. That's directly contrary to the6 notion of single family uses in that zone. So it7 requires a use variance, this is not a complete8 application and it never has been for this very reason.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.10 Good to see you Mr. Mascera.11 MR. MASCERA: Thank you, Doctor. Appreciate12 it.13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran.14 MR. AFRAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I know15 there's another independent witness, Jessica Pearson,16 from the Verona Environmental Commission. So I will17 turn the microphone over to Ms. Pearson.18 Ms. Pearson's asking me to deliver to you a19 copy of what she's going to read. I don't know how you20 want to mark it. Maybe it should be Verona21 Environmental Commission-1. I don't know.22 MR. PLOCKER: Can I see it.23 MS. McGOVERN: What's the proffer,

what she's going to read. I don't know how you20 want to mark it. Maybe it should be Verona21 Environmental Commission-1. I don't know.22 MR. PLOCKER: Can I see it.23 MS. McGOVERN: What's the proffer, what's24 the purpose of it?25 19 MR. AFRAN: It's a statement, it's not my1 witness, but she's reading a statement from the2 Environmental Commission.3 MS. McGOVERN: Isn't it public comment?4 MS. PEARSON: No, I sent it to the Mayor, to5 this board and I did note that last week, last meeting,6 last meeting the Essex County Environmental Commission7 read their's into the record. This was a resolution8 passed by the Verona Environmental Commission and --9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Go ahead.10 MS. PEARSON: You don't want a copy of it?11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Jamilet, you need a copy?12 MS. McGOVERN: So the next --13 MR. AFRAN: Jamilet now has a copy.14 MS. PEARSON: I did e-mail it to you as15 well.16 MS. McGOVERN: So Jamilet, I want to17 confirm, it's O-20?18 MS. PEARSON: Okay.19 MR. FAGAN: Excuse me.20 (Whereupon, a short recess is taken.)21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Go right ahead.22 MS. PEARSON: Okay. Jessica Pearson,23 Verona, New Jersey. I am the chair of the Verona24 Environmental Commission. Been serving on the25 20 commission since 2013, so around about 12 years. And,1 yes, this resolution was drafted by myself.2 This is a resolution entitled, Resolution3 Urging Township of West Orange to Preserve the 120 Acre4 Forest at the Second Watchung Mountain and Ridge.5 MS. McGOVERN: Are you going to be taking6 questions or making any other comments, then I would7 have to swear you in or are you just reading this?8 THE PUBLIC: If --9 MS. McGOVERN: Do you swear or affirm to10 tell the truth only.11 MS. PEARSON: Nothing but the truth.12 I do.13 MS. McGOVERN: Thank you.14 J E S S I C A P E A R S O N, having been15 duly sworn under oath testifies as follows:16 MS. PEARSON: Okay.17 "WHEREAS, the 120-acre property at Block18 179, Lot 32, known as the “West Essex.19 Highlands” is a core forest; a critical environmental20 facet of Essex County, New Jersey providing essential21 habitat and water resources; and22 WHEREAS, residential neighborhoods surrounding and23 adjacent to the core forest are flood prone, experience24 repeated flooding events, and exist in the 0.2% annual25

09/16/2025 06:29:53 AM Page 21 to 24 of 130 6 of 33 sheets 21 chance (500-year) FEMA floodplain; and1 WHEREAS, open space properties and parklands2 downstream from this property contain floodways, and or3 exist in the 1% annual chance (100-year) FEMA4 floodplain, and experience repeated flood events; and5 WHEREAS urban flooding can occur in places that are6 well outside of mapped floodplains and can be caused by7 rain falling on increased amounts of impervious surface8 overwhelming the capacity of drainage systems; and9 WHEREAS, this forest contains tens of thousands of10 trees, providing green infrastructure for stormwater11 management as well as providing for the absorption of12 carbon dioxide, the production of oxygen and relief from13 heat island effect and essential ecological habitat; and14 WHEREAS, the proposed removal of untold numbers of15 trees will exacerbate flooding, degrade the core forest16 and displace hundreds of native species; and17 WHEREAS, the applicant is not adhering to the most18 current stormwater rules and as such are not planning19 onsite stormwater management that would act to better20 protect all surrounding properties; and21 WHEREAS, waters from this forested land feed the22 Canoe Brook tributary and replenish critical aquifers23 that contribute to the NJ American Water, providing24 drinking water for 2.9 million25 22 New Jersey residents, in more than 190 communities.1 NOW THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Verona2 Environmental Commission does hereby urge the Township3 of West Orange to reject the proposed 496-unit4 development on said lands and to preserve the 120 acres5 of forested land in perpetuity.6 BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that a copy of this resolution7 shall be sent to the Township of West Orange Mayor8 McCartney and Council, Verona Township Mayor Tamburro,9 Verona Town Council members, and Township Manager10 O’Sullivan."11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you very much.12 We'll go around the board. Any members of the board13 have any questions?14 Ms. Kapferer.15 MS. KAPFERER: I don't have any questions.16 Thank you.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Wilkes.18 MR. WILKES: No questions, Dr. Bagoff.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Vice chairman.20 VICE CHAIRMAN GUARINO: No questions, Mr.21 Chairman.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Alper.23 MR. ALPER: I have no questions. Thank you,24 Mr. Chairman.25 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Cardoza.1 MR. CARDOZA: No questions, Mr.

MAN GUARINO: No questions, Mr.21 Chairman.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Alper.23 MR. ALPER: I have no questions. Thank you,24 Mr. Chairman.25 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Cardoza.1 MR. CARDOZA: No questions, Mr. Chairman.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. MacNeill.3 MR. MacNEILL: No questions. Thank you.4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Councilwoman Scarpa.5 COUNCILWOMAN SCARPA: No questions.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.7 Mr. Haizel.8 MR. HAIZEL: No questions at this time.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Do any members of the10 public have any questions, please raise your hand and be11 identified?12 Come right up.13 THE PUBLIC: My name is Lisa Saladino and I14 have question for you Jessica. I am not, I am not very15 knowledgeable about the environmental use of the forest16 for drinking water and I am just wondering if you could17 explain that a little more. Like what's an aquifer --18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry. She's not an19 expert in drinking water, she can't answer that.20 THE PUBLIC: No, how it was helping the21 drinking water for the millions of people in the State22 of New Jersey. I just want a little more detail of what23 that forest is doing.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: She's not an expert in25 24 drinking water in the State of New Jersey. She can't1 answer that.2 THE PUBLIC: Even though she referenced it3 in her resolution?4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: She can reference it but5 she's not -- she needs to be an expert.6 THE PUBLIC: Okay. Can she explain aquifer7 forest. I don't know what they are.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Can you explain aquifer?9 MS. PEARSON: An aquifer --10 THE PUBLIC: Aquifer?11 MS. PEARSON: Yeah.12 THE PUBLIC: Okay.13 MS. PEARSON: Is basically a basin where14 water collects after it infiltrates into the ground.15 THE PUBLIC: Okay.16 MS. PEARSON: And it's held there basically17 and it actually gets cleaned as it runs over root18 forests, the wetlands and it gets filtered through that19 and filtered as it runs into the ground and that's where20 it sits. So it's never going to get polluted.21 THE PUBLIC: Okay.22 So nature is how this earth stays alive.23 That's basically what I get from you essentially.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.25

7 of 33 sheets Page 25 to 28 of 130 09/16/2025 06:29:53 AM 25 Any other member of the public. Come up and1 state your name.2 THE PUBLIC: I thought I heard you say3 something about the American Water Company.4 MS. PEARSON: Yes.5 THE PUBLIC: I didn't catch what you said,6 so my question is, you may not know the answer, but do7 they have stake in this or they not speaking up about8 this?9 MS. PEARSON: I don't know what their10 position is at all. I just -- I do know that the11 aquifers from this forest that run into the Canoe Brook12 are utilized by that company.13 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Any other members of the15 public have any questions?16 Seeing none. Thank you very much.17 Mr. Afran.18 MR. AFRAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.19 Our next witness is Bill Green, who's a20 professional engineer from Litwornia Associates. I'm21 just trying to figure out where he'll stand to testify.22 He could go here and I could go to the podium. I don't23 know the best way.24 Bill, you want to go to the podium or do you25 26 prefer here?1 Good evening, Mr. Green.2 Q. MS. McGOVERN: Mr. Green has to be sworn in.3 MR. AFRAN: Oh, yes. I'm sorry.4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Raise your right hand,5 sir.6 MS. McGOVERN: Do you swear or affirm to tell the7 truth the whole truth nothing but the truth.8 THE WITNESS: I will.9 MS. McGOVERN: Do we have your complete10 spelling of your name? Is it G R E E N or G R E E N E?11 THE WITNESS: Like the color.12 MS. McGOVERN: Like the color.13 THE WITNESS: William H. Green, III.14 MS. McGOVERN: Okay. My family goes all the15 way back to the revolutionary war. I have an ancestor16 who served under George Washington. Okay. Then I grew17 up in West Paterson, which they changed the name of.18 W I L L I A M G R E E N, having been duly19 sworn under oath testifies as follows:20 MR. AFRAN: I don't know if Mr. Green can be21 heard unless he's holding -- would you rather use that?22 Mr. Green, I understand you're a licensed23 Q. professional engineer?24 Yes. New Jersey, Pennsylvania and Florida.25 A. 27 And I assume your license is in good standing?1 Q. Yes.2 A. And you, from what I understand, are with3 Q. Litwornia Associates?4 Yes.5 A. And how long have you been a licensed6 Q. professional engineer?7 Since around '85.8 A. '85.9 Q. And have you --10 That's an estimate. I can't remember. It's11 A. written on my card somewhere.12 That's all right.13

ave you been a licensed6 Q. professional engineer?7 Since around '85.8 A. '85.9 Q. And have you --10 That's an estimate. I can't remember. It's11 A. written on my card somewhere.12 That's all right.13 Q. Have you had an opportunity to testify before14 boards or agencies before?15 Yes, Litwornia Associates sits on planning boards16 A. in South Jersey, right now we're in Pemberton Township,17 which is rather large. And in fact we have in the18 neighborhood of four million square feet of warehousing19 and another probably seven, eight hundred single family20 homes being proposed in two separate subdivisions in the21 township. We reviewed all those, all those applications22 and advise the board as to, you know, whether they23 should be approved or not on the basic -- mainly24 traffic.25 28 MR. AFRAN: I would like to propose Mr.1 Litwornia -- I'm sorry. Mr. Green as a expert witness2 in the field of civil engineering.3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Any member of the board4 have any questions?5 Mr. Green, your license in the State of New6 Jersey is still active, sir. Is that correct?7 THE WITNESS: Yes.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Go right,9 ahead sir. We accept you as a licensed engineer in the10 State of New Jersey.11 MR. AFRAN: The way we're set up, Mr. Green12 is looking at me but not at the board. Perhaps if I go13 to the podium perhaps it would be better if he was14 facing the board.15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That's okay. I think16 everybody can hear him.17 MR. AFRAN: Okay, great. Thank you.18 Mr. Green, I understand you have analyzed the19 Q. site plan application here, is that correct?20 Thoroughly, yes.21 A. Okay.22 Q. And with respect to the -- strike that.23 I'm going to ask you questions about different24 aspects of the plan that I know you have reviewed and25

09/16/2025 06:29:53 AM Page 29 to 32 of 130 8 of 33 sheets 29 discussed with my clients.1 With regard to the water supply, have you2 analyzed the site plan application?3 Yes, I have. The RSIS has a section in it that4 A. requires the applicant to deal with water supply for the5 residential development. We did not see any details6 about water supply in the 66 pages engineering documents7 that were supplied to us. And so I took a look at it8 and referencing the RSIS gives of factors on how to9 estimate how much water will be required in that10 division. That residential area.11 MR. AFRAN: Can the board hear, because Mr.12 Green's very soft spoken and the air-conditioning just13 kicked on. I'm afraid no ones going to be able to hear14 him.15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Green, hold the mic16 very close to your mouth, sir.17 THE WITNESS: I guess I got to shout.18 MR. AFRAN: If Mr. Green's wearing this mic19 in a fixed position would that be better or not?20 Mr. Green, please be like a singer on stage, hold21 Q. that mic right next to your mouth.22 THE WITNESS: All right. I'm not a good23 singer.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Whatever you do don't drop25 30 the mic.1 MR. AFRAN: Unless, I hate to say, shut the2 air, but.3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: No, we've got to leave the4 air on.5 MR. AFRAN: It's very hard, I can't even6 hear, to be honest.7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Tell you what, let's turn8 the air off for this testimony.9 Let me reiterate. I looked at the requirements10 A. --11 MR. AFRAN: Hang on a second. We're going12 to shut the air so we can hear.13 THE WITNESS: Don't do that.14 MR. AFRAN: I can't hear.15 Again, the RSIS requires --16 A. MR. AFRAN: Wait one second.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Thank you.18 MR. AFRAN: Thank you.19 Mr. Green, continue please.20 Q. Again, the RSIS, which is a governing document in21 A. the state on how these residential applications are22 supposed to be handled and what they should cover and23 one of those things is domestic water. There was24 nothing in the applicants drawings, other than to say,25 31 look at it in the future. Well, I looked at it in the1 present and discovered that they will need 900 gallons a2 minute in the peak hours in the morning and evening3 when, you know, people are getting up and getting ready4 to go somewhere. And I also calculated the daily usage5 and had to ask a question, where is all this water6 coming from. And there's nothing,

3 when, you know, people are getting up and getting ready4 to go somewhere. And I also calculated the daily usage5 and had to ask a question, where is all this water6 coming from. And there's nothing, nothing in the7 application indicating that. So that's a major issue.8 It has to be addressed in the application for it to be9 complete.10 Is there any source of water supply identified in11 Q. the application?12 No. I did a little inquiring and found out that13 A. this creek on-site is used for make up water to a14 treatment plant that then pumps the water back to some15 of the residents, I guess to the south of the site. I16 guess 300, I don't know what they are, condominiums,17 apartments or whatever they might be, I guess on the18 south side of Oval. Some of you might live there, I19 don't know. But anyhow, all of that water goes back to20 those, to that development and that's tapped out, from21 what I understand.22 What do you base that understanding on?23 Q. Basically Joe who, you know, assigned us this24 A. job, indicated that that was the information that he had25 32 obtained and he can attest to that later on when he1 speaks.2 Okay.3 Q. So assuming that there's no capacity from that4 water source, are there any other sources of water5 supply known by you based on your review of the6 application seen by you?7 Nothing currently available. There's always a8 A. possibility of drilling a well, but they didn't bring9 that up and that's not an easy thing to get done.10 Okay.11 Q. So is there any provision in the site plan --12 Nothing --13 A. -- for a well?14 Q. No.15 A. Or for well water?16 Q. No.17 A. Now, other than the -- you mentioned the brook,18 Q. are you referring to the Canoe Brook?19 I believe that's what it is, yeah.20 A. Okay.21 Q. Not living in the neighborhood, I don't know all22 A. the names of things.23 Okay. That's fine.24 Q. Now, in addition to water supply for domestic25

9 of 33 sheets Page 33 to 36 of 130 09/16/2025 06:29:53 AM 33 use, is water needed for fire suppression purposes?1 Oh, absolutely.2 A. Now, have you considered this site plan3 Q. application in the engineering report with respect to4 fire suppression and water?5 There were no provisions.6 A. When you say, no provisions, no provisions for7 Q. what?8 Well, there should be a sprinkler system, fire9 A. hydrants. There was nothing shown anywhere that I could10 find.11 Is there any source for water for fire12 Q. suppression shown in the plans?13 No.14 A. Now, what role does a water tower play typically15 Q. in fire suppression?16 It provides you with a period of time when a fire17 A. is discovered we're you're assured of having enough line18 to quench the fire. You could have an issue where19 electric goes down because the fire was started by let's20 say lightning and it knocks out the power, now you can't21 get any water pressure without pumps. So now with the22 tower you got, let's say a good hour worth of, or more,23 depending on how big the tower is, I didn't get into,24 you know, exactly how big the tower has to be, but25 34 that's a whole other study that they should have done.1 But the tower gives you assurance that you got water2 pressure from the hydraulic or from the height of the --3 the height of the tower gives you water pressure. Okay.4 Without a pump. Now, you got to pump it up to get it5 into the tower and you maintain a level in the tower.6 So when you need that water it's available. It's also7 available during that peak hour, peak hours everyday8 when everybody's, you know, waking up and using water.9 You mean it's available not from the fire10 Q. suppression tower but from the normal supply?11 Well --12 A. Or you mean from the tower?13 Q. The tower can provide water for all purposes.14 A. So aside from --15 Q. It has to be designed for that. I didn't attempt16 A. to do that. I'm just saying it's not there, something17 has to be done to address all those issues, including18 all the fire protection rules. There's a lot of them.19 Do you have a minimum estimate or conservative20 Q. estimate for how many gallons would formally be required21 in the fire suppression tower?22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Is he an expert in fire23 suppression?24 THE WITNESS: No.25 35 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Are you representing he's1 an expert or has expertise in fire suppression?2 MR.

re suppression tower?22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Is he an expert in fire23 suppression?24 THE WITNESS: No.25 35 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Are you representing he's1 an expert or has expertise in fire suppression?2 MR. AFRAN: Well, he's a civil engineer3 who's --4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm asking the civil5 engineer --6 THE WITNESS: No, I'm not claiming to be an7 expert in fire protection. No.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. So you have no9 expertise in fire suppression?10 THE WITNESS: But I know enough about it to11 tell you that they didn't, they don't have anything to12 address the problem.13 MR. AFRAN: Fire suppression --14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That's what I asked. I15 asked, is he an expert in fire suppression and he said16 he's not.17 MR. AFRAN: Yes, but he's an expert in civil18 engineering.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Right.20 MR. AFRAN: And civil engineering requires,21 under the New Jersey law and case law is very clear,22 including POP Franklin Township, for example, which has23 been cited many times with approval, which is an24 Appellate Division decision from 1983. That all25 36 fundamental elements of a development must be included1 in detail and specification in the site plan.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That's what I asked.3 MR. AFRAN: No, but allow me to continue.4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Go right ahead.5 MR. AFRAN: Therefor, even though he's not a6 so-called fire suppression expert, he's not a sewer7 expert, he's not a water expert either. He's an expert8 in civil engineering and civil engineering in our state9 under the MLUL requires that in a site plan for a10 development the fundamental elements of the plan must be11 presented to the Planning Board.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Agreed.13 MR. AFRAN: And these fundamental areas are14 not there. That's all he's testifying to.15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: No, he's also talking16 about how much water is the fire in a tower --17 MR. AFRAN: I'll withdraw the question.18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.19 MR. AFRAN: I'm scanning my notes just to20 avoid a problem.21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: No problem.22 Now, assuming the Canoe Brook, you referred to23 Q. the brook, but accept my representation that you're24 referring to the Canoe Brook.25