August 25, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 61 insurance maps that FEMA has produced. They have their own modeling that they do that. And the DEP has created a model where they raised the elevation 3 feet from that FEMA flood zone and said, where does that stretch out to beyond that. Because that's the type of flooding that there has been an increase in. THE PUBLIC: Thank you. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, sir. Anyone else from the public have any questions on his testimony. Please come up and be identified. THE PUBLIC: Good evening. Megan Coleman, Township of Verona. I want to thank you Professor for your presentation. Very informative. And thank you for giving us an overview, great overview of smart growth conservation priorities. So one that really jumped out to me was number seven, which was Mitigating Flood Risk. And you also mentioned that as the hydrology changes in the area and as it changes for this site it will probably change the hydrology from downstream. So obviously recognizing that you are not a stormwater expert, I was curious if you were to give a smart growth grade to number seven, Mitigating Flood Risk for this property, what would you

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 62 give it? THE WITNESS: Probably I would give it a C minus or a D. THE PUBLIC: Thank you. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Any other member of the public have any questions for Professor Hasse on his testimony? Please come up. You have three minutes. THE PUBLIC: Barbara White, Howell Drive. If you could go back to the slide that you showed us that had the steep slope, that would be where my question is. The slide with the steep slope. And again, you can go in and zoom in on the area that is nearest Howell Drive. THE WITNESS: I am going to go back to the map. I can't really zoom in on the slide but I can zoom in on the map. Am I in the right place? THE PUBLIC: You're in the right place. So part of what we have learned over time is there are two lots on Howell that may be used for an emergency exit. And what I wanted to see myself, doesn't appear, they may well be in the steep slope area that is greater than 15 percent. What I wanted to see is whether or not the area where the two lots are that mentioned was the emergency exit areas and what their

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 63 steepness is. That's in the cul-de-sac. THE WITNESS: Again -- THE PUBLIC: I don't know if you have enough detail to point out that exact two lots. But does it appear from what you showed us that those lots may well be in the steep slope? THE WITNESS: This seems like, and it's hard because these are not -- it seems like the steep slope starts just to the east of where the building footprint is. So that means that, you can see the cul-de-sac right here. This is the, this is the screen shot from the proposal that's online, so I can't really zoom in on here. This is the access point here and I guess the developers attorney can testify -- MR. PLOCKER: I don't testify. THE WITNESS: You don't testify. THE PUBLIC: So my question is, and I don't think you have it here for us to see the overlay, your steep slope map to that, are those lots, is that steep slope or not? And I don't know, again, if that can be shown tonight but that was the question I have. THE WITNESS: I don't have the ability to bring the proposed plan into NJ Map, that is correct. It seems like though it may be to the west of the steep slope area.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 64 THE PUBLIC: Okay. Thank you. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Do any other members of the public have any questions for Mr. Hasse on his testimony? Please come up. You have three minutes. THE PUBLIC: My name is Debbie Druce, D-R-U-C-E. After Hurricane Sandy many, many trees in that area fell down and the land had shifted, the sidewalks, they have turned up, the things for the proposed houses have split apart. My question is, in that land when you talked about the soil and headwaters, what is the characteristic of the shifting of the land and stability of that area, particularly having trees stand up, landscape filters and having foundations there? CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry, I don't think he testified anything about foundations or geology. THE PUBLIC: No, because when we look at the type of soil some soils have -- are shifting. They have a base, can you describe that area where you have headwaters? THE WITNESS: Yeah, that is beyond my expertise, like soil structure and ability of foundations. But it is important for residents to be documenting, taking pictures when those things have

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 65 happened so you have records of it. These maps, these engineering maps, FEMA maps, all of them are models and that's a good representation, but a representation of having real evidence and having a record is important. So it's good to be recounting these things that happen. But I can't speak to the nature of the soils. THE PUBLIC: So how do you take those observations and account for over 20 years how the land shifts and holds things up, how do you do that? THE WITNESS: That's a good question. You have to have somebody that has more expertise and is able to do that. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Any other members of the public have questions to ask on the testimony? Please step up. You have three minutes. THE PUBLIC: Bob Sharenow, S-H-A-R-E-N-O-W. I live in the Highlands. Based on everything that you gave us at the beginning and asking us kind of to do a little report card, if we had a total good report card in school we could get a hundred out of it. And in your opinion based on everything you know and all that you asked us to grade, can you give us a grade on what you think this property would be?

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 66 THE WITNESS: Again, there's two reports, there's the smart growth aspect, does it have a design and a, you know, a location that would be having characteristics of smart growth. THE PUBLIC: Okay. Let's take that part. THE WITNESS: This would be very poor. My students would grade this as D probably. THE PUBLIC: Thank you. Everybody heard that, right? The other part we're talking about, how would your students grade it? THE WITNESS: As a parcel for potential conservation, it's up there. It's up to a B plus. And its size and the fact that it's the remaining open space in the whole county are all factors that are important. THE PUBLIC: So it should stay that way, correct? THE WITNESS: I think there's so little of it left that it would be -- THE PUBLIC: I think everybody in the room agrees with that. Thank you. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Any other member of the public have any questions? Please come me. You have three minutes. THE PUBLIC: Seth Weisleder, 17 Howell

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 67 Drive. I have a question, the map that we are looking at, does that also show what it looked like two years ago and if that slope increased at all, increased in size and the steepness of it? THE WITNESS: To this? THE PUBLIC: You don't have any -- there is no, like if you are watching a satellite weather map and it's moving across, do you have a depiction over the last three or four years? THE WITNESS: For the geology, no. They fly this with Lidar, which is laser, and that's only done occasionally. It's done like a one off. So this data is the most recent data done on this laser based measurement of the elevation of the land surface, but that's probably five years old as it is. So the elevation data does not get updated. The aerial imagery for the state only gets updated every five years. It's extensive and it's involved. Elevation data doesn't change that much and so, you know, maybe there will be an update within the next ten years, I don't know. But it is not a year to year monitoring of the slope. THE PUBLIC: Okay. Thank you. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Anyone else from the public have any

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 68 questions for Professor Hasse on his testimony? Please come up. You have three minutes. THE PUBLIC: Good evening. I know what your testimony is and I appreciate -- Jack McElroy from Verona. I'm actually on the Verona Town Council and I'm the Deputy Mayor of Verona. The affordable housing question came up and one of the members of the board was stating some numbers on affordable housing and it differs from town to town. I am surprised that no one else in the room brought this up when he was testifying to this or asking the question. Numbers are no different in Verona than they are in West Orange. You stated like a ten to 12,000 dollar difference from 73, 74,000, Verona 6l,000. We're both in Region 2 and we are subject to the state -- the same rules and regulations from the State of New Jersey. So I just wanted to clarify that. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: This is, sir, this is to ask a question not testify. THE PUBLIC: I feel there was some inaccuracy. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Deputy Mayor listen to me, please. This is to ask a question of the person who testified, not to make a statement. There will be time in public comment.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 69 THE PUBLIC: My question is, where did you get the numbers then? If you state inaccurate numbers, where did you get the numbers and I'm sorry to bring you involved in this because your testimony was brilliant. VICE CHAIRMAN GUARINO: Well, one of your school members gave me that total. One of your school board members told me how many kids came into that development to the school -- to your school system. Okay. So that's where I got the number from. Don't look at me like I got three heads. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Okay. THE PUBLIC: The testimony from the school board member has nothing to do with this case. And I can state numbers from a record because I have it here, but you're talking numbers far above what was stated. 86,000 is low income and low to moderate income is 86 -- excuse me. Low income is 54,000 and very low income is 32,000, it's the same throughout every town and it should be noted. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you very much, sir. THE PUBLIC: Hi. Deidre Dyson, Slayback and Howell Drive. My question is for the people that are underneath. I am across the street from the cul-de-sac and the people who had floods last summer, we had a

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 70 really horrible rainstorm that caused the asphalt to come up and all this stuff there. My question is, in your opinion are the people that live lower down below where that buildings going to be built, are they going to have to have, whether they have flood insurance now or not -- CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry. THE PUBLIC: Are they in trouble with flood insurance? CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: He didn't testify to flood insurance. He didn't testify to flooding. There are other people, other experts that testified on both sides to that. THE PUBLIC: Okay. I am going to have a seat. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you very much. Any other members of the public who have any questions based on what Mr. Hasse testified to? THE PUBLIC: Good evening. Jessica Pearson, Verona. How are you? Thank you for your testimony. It was really enriching. My question to you regards, I guess, sort of the controversy that was brought up in the very beginning of your testimony when the applicants attorney