October 22 2025, Planning Board Regular Meeting - WEHI Transcript

1 of 17 sheets Page 1 to 4 of 40 10/28/2025 12:18:39 PM 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 TOWNSHIP OF WEST ORANGE DEPARTMENT OF PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT WEDNESDAY, OCTOBER 22, 2025 6:30 P.M. RE; PB-24-01 WEST ESSEX HIGHLANDS, INC. BOARD MEMBERS: ROBERT BAGOFF, Chairman JERRY GUARINO, Vice Chairman SUSAN McCARTNEY, Mayor KEN ALPER JOHN CARDOZA LEE D. KLEIN WILLIAM B. WILKES SUSAN SCARPA, Council Woman JORDAN RIZZO, Engineer MALVIKA APTE, Planner JAMILET BAQUERIZO VITE, Board Secretary GENIECE GARY-ADAMS, Zoning Official WITNESSES: JORDAN RIZZO FISHMAN COURT REPORTING AGENCY 89 HEADQUARTERS PLAZA NORTH 4 SPEEDWELL AVENUE, SUITE 1440 MORRISTOWN, NEW JERSEY 07960 (973) 285-5331 - FAX - (732) 605-9391 2 A P P E A R A N C E S :1 2 H U T T , S H I M A N O W I T Z & P L O C K E R , E S Q S . B Y B R Y A N D . P L O C K E R , E S Q .3 B p l o c k e r @ h u t t s h i m . c o m 4 5 9 A M B O Y A V E N U E4 W O O D B R I D G E , N E W J E R S E Y 0 7 0 9 5 A p p e a r i n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e A p p l i c a n t5 6 G A C C I O N E & P O M A C O , E S Q S . B Y D I A N A P . M c G O V E R N , E S Q .7 O N E B O L A N D D R I V E , S U I T E 1 0 2 W E S T O R A N G E , N E W J E R S E Y 0 7 0 5 28 A p p e a r i n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e B o a r d 9 10 B R U C E I . A F R A N , E S Q . 1 0 B R A E B R U N D R I V E11 P R I N C E T O N , N E W J E R S E Y 0 8 5 4 0 A p p e a r i n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e O b j e c t o r , W e C a r e N J12 C o r p . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 I N D E X O F E X H I B I T S2 E X H I B I T D E S C R I P T I O N3 C M E R E P O R T - A U G U S T 1 5 , 2 0 2 54 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 C H A I R M A N B A G O F F : P B - 2 4 - 0 1 W e s t E s s e x1 H i g h l a n d s , I n c , B l o c k 1 7 9 L o t 3 2 Z o n e I H - 1 W a r n e r R o a d .2 T h e a p p l i c a n t i s p r o p o s i n g t o d e v e l o p a 4 9 6 u n i t3 i n c l u s i o n a r y m u l t i f a m i l y r e s i d e n t i a l d e v e l o p m e n t o n a4 v a c a n t 1 2 0 - a c r e p r o p e r t y i n t h e n o r t h w e s t c o r n e r o f t h e5 T o w n s h i p .6 M r . P l o c k e r , f o r t h e a p p l i c a n t .7 M R . P L O C K E R : G o o d e v e n i n g , M r . C h a i r m a n .8 B r y a n P l o c k e r , f r o m t h e f i r m o f H u t t , S h i m a n o w i t z &9 P l o c k e r

r t h e a p p l i c a n t .7 M R . P L O C K E R : G o o d e v e n i n g , M r . C h a i r m a n .8 B r y a n P l o c k e r , f r o m t h e f i r m o f H u t t , S h i m a n o w i t z &9 P l o c k e r o n b e h a l f o f t h e a p p l i c a n t , W e s t E s s e x10 H i g h l a n d s , I n c .11 C H A I R M A N B A G O F F : T h a n k y o u .12 M r . A f r a n , f o r t h e o b j e c t o r .13 M R . A F R A N : G o o d e v e n i n g , M r . C h a i r m a n .14 B r u c e A f r a n f o r t h e o b j e c t o r , W e C a r e N e w J e r s e y .15 C H A I R M A N B A G O F F : D o y o u h a v e p e o p l e t o16 t e s t i f y t h i s e v e n i n g ?17 M R . A F R A N : N o , w e s e n t a l e t t e r i n18 y e s t e r d a y t o M r . P l o c k e r a n d M s . M c G o v e r n i n d i c a t i n g19 t h a t o u r w i t n e s s , M r . H u d a c s k o , w e w o u l d n o t b e c a l l i n g .20 H e a c t u a l l y e x p e r i e n c e d a l e g i n j u r y t h a t w o u l d c a u s e21 g r e a t d i s c o m f o r t , h e h a d a t w o a n d a h a l f h o u r d r i v e a n d22 I d e c i d e d i t w a s r e a l l y n o t w o r t h i t o r f a i r t o a s k h i m23 t o d o t h a t a n d v i r t u a l l y a l l o f t h i s t e s t i m o n y w o u l d24 d e a l w i t h l e g a l c o n c e p t s u n d e r t h e M L U L , w h i c h I w i l l d o25

10/28/2025 12:18:39 PM Page 5 to 8 of 40 2 of 17 sheets 5 in summation when we get to that point. So we are not1 going to be calling Mr. Hudacsko, as indicated in my2 letter yesterday. Our remaining witnesses would be very3 limited, and we don't know if they're happening, we4 might have Mr. Goll testify, but that depends on CME's5 ultimate report on the structural issues and Mr. Walsh6 has a very brief, probably 15-minute, supplement to his7 original testimony and his report dated September 2,8 2025, a supplemental report. He's not here today, he9 can be here on the 29th. Other than that and10 potentially Mr. Goll, we have no further witnesses.11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: There's not going to be12 any rebuttal on CME. CME is our board expert. There is13 no rebuttal on that. This is the board expert. That's14 it.15 MR. AFRAN: With he respect, the board16 expert functions as staff to the board.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Correct.18 MR. AFRAN: The public all have a right to19 comment on any staff --20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm not arguing about --21 MR. AFRAN: -- let me finish. On any staff22 report.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm not arguing about24 commenting. We will have public comment. We're not25 6 going to have any back and forth additional testimony.1 MR. AFRAN: I would submit that would be2 significant error by the board. There's case law that3 makes it very clear --4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: All right. You may5 provide that after this is done. You may provide that6 to our attorney and we'll review that.7 MR. AFRAN: We could do that.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: There's case law that once9 our report, after we've heard all the testimony, that10 we're going to have rebuttal from somebody else against11 our board -- our board experts.12 MR. AFRAN: It's not a matter of calling it13 rebuttal, it's a matter of responding to another expert14 who has not yet been heard. I have no idea what CME15 will say. If CME comes in with a report, or whatever16 they come in with, they're an expert that has not been17 heard. The board expert is normally supposed to give an18 engineering report at the outset of an application, even19 before it comes to the public hearing. Normally an20 objector can offer expert evidence to respond to those.21 There's no difference just because it comes in later.22 It should have come in earlier anyway. Whether it comes23 in later or earlier the objector and the public have a24 right to

respond to those.21 There's no difference just because it comes in later.22 It should have come in earlier anyway. Whether it comes23 in later or earlier the objector and the public have a24 right to comment and offer expert testimony if there's25 7 an objector. There's no question about this in the law.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The public has a right to2 comment, no doubt about that, but if you have completed3 your testimony then you have completed your testimony.4 MR. AFRAN: I did not say we completed our5 testimony. I said since there's a CME staff report6 coming in, we are reserving the right to potentially7 call our expert witness in connection with that. I8 never said we were completing our testimony. I9 expressly said there is a potential that Mr. Goll will10 be called and we do have one additional witness, Mr.11 Walsh, who will be called.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Your witness was supposed13 to be here tonight. You had two witnesses.14 MR. AFRAN: I'm aware of that.15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: He was supposed to be here16 tonight.17 MR. AFRAN: I'm aware of that. Mr. Goll's18 --19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: And the issue is the board20 is here for a special meeting and the public is here for21 a special meeting and telling us at this time that the22 person who's supposed to be here, that they're not going23 to be here, is problematic for the people. The people24 need to hear this and the dragging on is not in the best25 8 interest for the public matter.1 MR. AFRAN: Mr. Walsh's testimony will be2 extremely brief. I spoke with him at the last meeting,3 before the last meeting, in fact he confirmed he4 couldn't be here today, he confirmed that he could not5 be here today, but could be her on the 29th. That was6 two days ago. Nothing else I could do.7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: What would Mr. Walsh's8 testimony include?9 MR. AFRAN: He has a supplemental report10 dated September 2, which contains some additional11 material supplementing his original report. I'm not an12 expert, I am not going to try to characterize it.13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Did he provide that to the14 board secretary?15 MR. AFRAN: I don't recall if it was sent16 in.17 MS. McGOVERN: No.18 MR. AFRAN: It was not sent in yet, we can19 send it in tomorrow.20 MS. McGOVERN: So --21 MR. PLOCKER: Respectfully, September 2 was22 a month and a half ago. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Mr. Plocker.24 MR. AFRAN: He was not

send it in tomorrow.20 MS. McGOVERN: So --21 MR. PLOCKER: Respectfully, September 2 was22 a month and a half ago. I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Mr. Plocker.24 MR. AFRAN: He was not available the last25

3 of 17 sheets Page 9 to 12 of 40 10/28/2025 12:18:39 PM 9 meeting.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ms. McGovern.2 MS. McGOVERN: We've been delayed -- we've3 been delayed and delayed and delayed and we haven't met4 since September 3 was it, the last time. There's been a5 long layoff. It is a long time for these witnesses to6 be lined up and this has been, this has been scheduled7 for over a month, this special meeting.8 MR. AFRAN: I've stated that he informed me9 --10 MS. McGOVERN: It's actually not a special11 meeting. We moved our regular meeting to tonight so12 everybody could participate.13 MR. AFRAN: Would you rather I call Mr.14 Hudacsko and have him testify for three hours when I15 don't need him.16 MS. McGOVERN: No.17 MR. AFRAN: Obviously that's not what we18 want.19 MS. McGOVERN: That is a legal decision on20 your end, I understand that.21 MR. AFRAN: Right. We don't need him.22 MS. MCGOVERN: That's fine.23 MR. AFRAN: The only other witness would24 have been Mr. Walsh should be about 15 minutes. He is25 10 not the reason we are here without witnesses. We1 decided that Mr. Hudacsko won't be called and that --2 MS. McGOVERN: And is that your last3 witness, Mr. Walsh?4 MR. AFRAN: Subject to Mr. Goll --5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Walsh is the last6 witness, unless you provide legal documentation to7 reasonably move the board to hear somebody after our8 experts, there's would be nobody else.9 MR. AFRAN: I doubt very much there's case10 law dealing with the narrow question of whether another11 expert can come in after the board expert files a report12 after the objectors -- the applicants case. But the13 case law's very clear that a reasonable opportunity must14 be given to any objector expert. Now, we haven't seen15 CME's report on this issue and it logically is a part of16 the file the board has an objector has the legal right,17 and I'll show you case law, stating there must be a18 reasonable ability to respond. You can't respond if you19 don't know about it.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ms. McGovern.21 MS. McGOVERN: This isn't an objector22 expert, this isn't an applicant expert. It's the boards23 consultant expert who's going to give them the24 comparison of what the testimony is. Wrap it all up.25 11 MR. AFRAN: If you want to take that1 position Ms. McGovern, and it risks significant error if2 the board should approve the application.3 MS. McGOVERN: I'm going to disagree

y is. Wrap it all up.25 11 MR. AFRAN: If you want to take that1 position Ms. McGovern, and it risks significant error if2 the board should approve the application.3 MS. McGOVERN: I'm going to disagree with4 you. The Chairman has the power to run the meeting the5 way the Chairman sees fit and this has been clear to6 everybody.7 MR. AFRAN: It's been clear also --8 MS. McGOVERN: We are on meeting number 21.9 MR. AFRAN: It's been clear also since it10 was announced that CME would produce a report that we11 were reserving the right to call Mr. Goll back. Mr.12 Goll -- let me finish. Mr. Goll is the reason CME will13 be producing a report.14 MS. MCGOVERN: And I'm going to suggest why15 don't we see the report --16 MR. AFRAN: That's what I'm saying.17 MS. McGOVERN: -- and then you can make the18 argument if there's a significant argument that the19 Chairman, I'm sure will listen to whatever it is and the20 applicants attorney. We have to move this forward to21 collusion.22 MR. AFRAN: Well, it's going to a23 conclusion. We only have --24 MS. McGOVERN: We are wasting tonight is25 12 what's happening.1 MR. AFRAN: I told you yesterday Mr.2 Hudacsko is not coming.3 MS. McGOVERN: I didn't say --4 MR. AFRAN: Excuse me. I even said, I don't5 think we have any work to do. So -- and you told me the6 Chair wants to have a meeting. I gave notice we7 wouldn't be needing this meeting. There's nothing else8 I could do.9 MS. McGOVERN: This is our regular meeting.10 MR. AFRAN: Okay. So you have a regular11 meeting.12 MS. McGOVERN: You reserved notice in order13 to -- we do have one witness, we do have our board14 engineer who's going to report to us. There is work to15 be done tonight. Unfortunately we'll probably be over16 within 45 minutes maybe, if that.17 MR. AFRAN: Well, I'm certainly happy to18 call Mr. Hadacsko and testify for three hours just so we19 can say we filled the night up. I don't think that's in20 anyone's interest. It's in everyone's interest not to21 waste time and create a whole convoluted record when22 it's not necessary. Now, if you'd rather me bring a23 planner on when I don't need him just so we can say we24 don't waste the night, that would be rather absurd.25

10/28/2025 12:18:39 PM Page 13 to 16 of 40 4 of 17 sheets 13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Nobody suggested that.1 MR. AFRAN: Okay.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We're suggesting that you3 get your people and -- well, it was my understanding4 then that Mr. Goll was going to be here for 15 minutes.5 MR. AFRAN: Walsh.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Walsh.7 MR. AFRAN: It was my understanding also.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.9 So I'm going to say next meeting you got 1510 minutes, if he can't come have somebody else from his11 firm come. That's it. We just can't --12 MR. AFRAN: I say 15 minutes. It's a short13 presentation.14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Whatever it is, it is. We15 will listen, absolutely.16 Mr. AFRAN: That's all we ask.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.18 MR. AFRAN: Other than that and Mr. Goll19 potentially, we have no further witnesses. Unless the20 ridge collapses next week in which case we'll be back.21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker.22 MR. PLOCKER: Yeah, can Mr. Afran represent23 when we will be receiving the report from September?24 MR. AFRAN: I will do everything I can to25 14 get it to you tonight by e-mail, if I can. I can1 probably do it in a minute by e-mail.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Tomorrow's fine.3 MR. AFRAN: Thank you.4 Anyway, I'm sorry about Mr. Hadacsko. It5 was a decision and there were proper reasons.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. We're going to move7 forward from there. Thank you, Mr. Afran.8 Okay. Mr. Rizzo.9 MR. RIZZO: Hello.10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You're up, sir.11 MR. RIZZO: Okay.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Just so the public knows13 here and on zoom, the board has asked CME, our14 engineering firm, to look at a number of issues that15 have been presented by both the applicant and the16 objectors. We wanted an independent, and so you know,17 the board planner and the board engineer are independent18 from the applicant. So they have no axe to grind so to19 speak. They are here to guide us with what each side20 has said in relation to the application before us21 because many of these things are rules, regulations and22 understandings that are way above the boards23 understanding. So our engineer is going to present this24 to us and the public this evening. And with no further25 15 adeu, Mr. Rizzo.1 MR. AFRAN: I'm sorry.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran.3 MR. AFRAN: Is this the report on the4 structural issues or on other issues?5 MS. MCGOVERN: No, August 15, 2025. It was6 put up on the agenda over a month

FRAN: I'm sorry.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran.3 MR. AFRAN: Is this the report on the4 structural issues or on other issues?5 MS. MCGOVERN: No, August 15, 2025. It was6 put up on the agenda over a month ago.7 MR. AFRAN: Good. Just checking. I wanted8 to make sure. Thank you.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: And could you speak into10 the mic, please.11 MR. RIZZO: Sure.12 Again, Jordan Rizzo with CME. I'm going to13 be summarizing CME's August 15, 2025 memo to the board.14 This memo is in response to Princeton Hydro's March 10,15 2025 memo and that was in response to the applicants16 series of stormwater documents. The stormwater, report,17 plans, geotechnical testing, etc. So I have eight18 comments to go through here. Let me know if you want me19 to go faster or slower.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Take your time.21 MR. RIZZO: The first one is soil testing22 requirements. So this talks about soil mottling or the23 lack thereof from the applicants geotechnical testing.24 Now, mottling, as you heard probably a few months ago in25 16 Princeton Hydro's testimony, it's M-O-T-T-L-I-N-G, so1 mottling. Mottling is basically observing discoloration2 in soil when you're doing a soil test. Easiest way to3 find the seasonal high water table is to observe water4 in the ground. But that water table fluctuates, so if5 you dig a hole and you don't find anything, any water,6 or you dig a hole and the water level might be lower7 than it always is, you can look at the discoloration of8 the soil and that would give you a more conservative9 estimation of where that seasonal high water table lies.10 Now, the applicants geotechnical11 information, which was obviously signed and sealed by12 their geotech who performed all the soil testing, they13 did not observe mottling. Now, it's not a requirement14 that you do, it's just -- it's usually supplemental your15 testing. So in this case the applicant observed a water16 table and that's what's documented. Princeton Hydro's17 comment was that it wasn't observed and maybe the waters18 table in fact higher, but we can only really go on what19 the geotechnical analysis tells us and that's, again,20 signed by the geotech engineer.21 The one thing we are recommending as a22 comment to the applicant, is that they continue to test23 the soil during construction. And if they observe that24 the water table is actually higher than they originally25

5 of 17 sheets Page 17 to 20 of 40 10/28/2025 12:18:39 PM 17 found, that they review the stormwater again and1 potentially have to revise the basins. But short of2 that, there's nothing else that we need to review, it's3 basically provided and that's what we'll go by.4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Number 1, when we review5 the application this will be a condition based on what6 you have reported for this application.7 MS. McGOVERN: How often should they look at8 it?9 THE WITNESS: During construction. So as10 they're building every basin we're going to have a11 condition or a comment that goes on the plans that12 they'll need to be testing at that time to make sure13 that that water table is accurate from what their14 original --15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So you will create a16 larger document that will describe exactly what you want17 in relation to the testing for mottling during18 construction?19 THE WITNESS: Yes, so we're asking the20 comment goes on the plans for the contractor doing the21 testing.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Great.23 THE WITNESS: At that point the contractor24 can do that.25 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.1 MS. McGOVERN: Okay.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mayor McCartney.3 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Can I ask a question?4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: When he's done.5 Go ahead.6 THE WITNESS: Number 2 talks about, on a7 similar note, the separation between the bottom of the8 basin to the seasonal high water table. Now, that needs9 to be at least two feet. Princeton Hydro's response was10 that there was three basins that show a separation less11 than two feet. Now, if it's indeed less than two feet12 it definitely needs to be fixed and if they do testing13 during the construction and it shows up that way it, it14 would have to be revised. The geotech engineer for the15 applicant basically took whatever, you know, they dug a16 hole, they took an estimate as far as what that ground17 elevation is and that's what they use. They dig it and18 they say, okay, we're X number of feet deep and that's19 what their elevation for the seasonal high water is. So20 that's what's been presented, that's what we reviewed.21 As far we can see it appears accurate. Of course it22 could be off by a little bit here and there, but that's23 why we're going to have them continue to do testing24 during construction to verify that.25 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That would be a condition.1 THE WITNESS: Third point talks about2 comparison of