December 3, 2025 Regular Meeting - WEHI Transcript

01/05/2026 02:58:16 PM Page 37 to 40 of 68 10 of 17 sheets 37 used, and we have seen in many cases buildings collapse1 and other structures collapse because of engineering2 problems, then rocks would slide and you need a3 catchment area, isn't that fair to say?4 No, not in this case.5 A. Why not in this case, what makes you so sure?6 Q. Because this is essentially a soil slope with7 A. rock in it. It's not a rock slope. If you -- there's8 another site down on the First Watchung Mountains on9 Northfield Road where everything you're talking about10 exists, but doesn't exist here.11 Well, if you stabilize the rock where we are12 Q. going to blast that rock destabilizing could cause a13 slope?14 You're going to do it so you don't destabilize15 A. it.16 Engineering is designed to cover when people make17 Q. mistakes so people don't die. Would you agree with that18 proposition?19 I have been doing this for 20 years and --20 A. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I think he answered the21 question as an expert. You keep asking him to answer22 questions the way you want, he answered the question23 three times.24 Let me ask this question.25 Q. 38 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: He answered.1 MR. AFRAN: This is a different question.2 The reason we have engineers is so we can build3 Q. property that minimize the risk of human life and4 property, isn't that fair to say?5 And that's why I recommended that there be an6 A. excavation work plan certified by a professional7 engineer registered in the State of New Jersey.8 Even though the Planning Board would not see that9 Q. and not be able to evaluate it?10 We recommend that be sent as a requirement to the11 A. developer.12 Thank you. But does that mean as a condition of13 Q. approval after this is approved, possibly, or do you14 mean before the board votes?15 I don't do municipal engineering myself, I don't16 A. know what this process, what, you know, what the process17 is. I am just telling you technically what is done.18 That there is an excavation work plan and that19 Q. should answer many of these questions?20 Yes.21 A. Okay.22 Q. Would you agree that these slopes we are dealing23 with here are steep slopes as defined by the town steep24 slope ordinance?25 39 Sorry.1 A. Let me repeat that. Would you agree that the2 Q. slopes we are dealing with here are steep slopes as3 defined by the townships steep slope ordinance, unless4 you don't know?5 I don't

?25 39 Sorry.1 A. Let me repeat that. Would you agree that the2 Q. slopes we are dealing with here are steep slopes as3 defined by the townships steep slope ordinance, unless4 you don't know?5 I don't know what the ordinance says exactly.6 A. The hazards report called them a moderately type of7 slope, but I'm not sure what the slope ordinance defines8 as steep slope. They're not particularly steep for the9 rock slopes.10 Well, have you read the towns steep slope11 Q. ordinance?12 No, I haven't.13 A. MR. PLOCKER: Which does not apply to the14 application.15 MR. AFRAN: Well, yes, you are taking the16 position that it was set aside.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Whatever the position is.18 MR. AFRAN: Mr. Kleinberg is not a lawyer.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Continue talking to him,20 please.21 MR. AFRAN: Okay.22 I just need one moment.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Sure.24 I'm sorry.25 Q. 40 Well, Page 11 you speak of slope mapping under1 Hazard Mapping and there you say, "The slope angle on2 the upper slope, as determined by the spacing of3 contours created by aerial survey, is steeper than4 indicated by the contours and ranges from 17 to 295 degrees, which may require a re-evaluation of the Hazus6 Class by the Agency publishing the map." Doesn't that7 mean that other evaluations show a much steeper slope8 than the hazards map shows?9 Right. But the stability analyses that were10 A. performed address that.11 I am just asking a question. You just said --12 Q. Also a 29 degree slope is not a steep slope.13 A. Yes, but 15 percent is what qualifies as steep14 Q. slopes on most municipal rules, isn't it?15 Most highway embankments are 29 degree slopes.16 A. But most municipalities use 15 percent --17 Q. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: He's not talking -- he is18 testifying to something in the report. Now you're19 talking about something where most folks are.20 MR. AFRAN: We are not building a highway,21 correct?22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Correct.23 We're not building highway, Mr. Kleinberg?24 Q. No.25 A.