12 12 24 PSEG West Orange BOA ZB 24 06 PSEG 35 Mt Pleasant Ave Condensed

N NEUER: Let me turn to 5 Ms. Porter for cross-examination. 6 MS. PORTER: Yes. 7 Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION 9 BY MS. PORTER: 10 Q. Now, Mr. Linson, you indicated that you 11 were the former forester for West Orange, and that 12 concluded in 2021? 13 A. Yes. That's -- to the best of my 14 recollection, that's about it, yeah. 15 Q. And you also had indicated that you 16 were not involved in the drafting of or the 17 implementation of anything relating to the new tree 18 ordinance that is currently in effect? 19 A. That's true. 20 Q. Have you walked the site in connection 21 with your analysis and testimony this evening? 22 A. I have not walked the site. 23 Q. Okay. Have you ever -- 24 A. I'd be happy to do so. 25 Q. Have you ever been inside the station Page 44 1 equipment on the site? 2 A. I have no knowledge of that at all. 3 Q. Okay. And you had previously mentioned 4 before that in your expertise, you believe that the 5 current tree ordinance is one of the strictest that 6 you've seen. Is that correct? 7 A. That's correct. 8 Q. And are you aware of the reports that 9 were issued by the Township forester, Mr. Kipp, in 10 connection with PSE&G's application? 11 A. I am only aware of his report to the 12 extent that he reported that it fulfills the 13 requirement of the ordinance, which is bean counting. 14 You know, if you take down a 30-inch diameter tree, 15 you're replacing it with seven or eight trees, 16 whatever. 17 So from an -- adding up the total, I'm 18 aware that it fulfills the ordinance from that 19 extent, but not from the intent of protecting 20 existing specimen trees. 21 Q. Are you aware that Mr. Kipp indicated 22 that he reviewed and found everything consistent with 23 the tree ordinance? 24 A. I haven't seen his -- seen his report, 25 so I can't really comment on it.

65b96228-b9ab-4f72-9291-fa4a14ff04c8 12 (Pages 45 to 48) Page 45 1 Q. Okay. 2 A. I -- I do acknowledge him as an expert 3 in the field and we have spoken on other matters, but 4 not this one. 5 Q. Thank you. 6 That was actually my next question, 7 whether you had had any conversations with him about 8 this application or about his findings in connection 9 with it? 10 A. No. We've -- we've discussed the 11 ordinance as it pertains to some other situations, 12 because the -- I have assisted some of these licensed 13 tree care operators in fulfilling the requirement of 14 an application because it -- they need a licensed 15 tree expert to sign off that the tree is actually 16 dead or that it's not dead and, you know, what are 17 the implications of removing it, if we're removing a 18 tree that's not dead. 19 So that's why I am familiar with the 20 ordinance. I guess I have been -- I have assisted 21 several local tree companies in filling out the -- 22 the land fee application, the tree removal 23 application. 24 Q. Thank you. 25 And are you aware of or have you worked Page 47 1 practice every day. 2 Q. Specific to -- 3 A. I'm an arborist -- 4 Q. -- utilities? 5 A. I'm an arborist. I'm a forester. I'm 6 a certified tree expert. 7 Q. No, I understand that. 8 And you have specific experience in 9 that capacity in dealing with substations? 10 A. I can't say that. 11 I -- I -- around electricity, yes. I 12 work with trees around electricity all the time. 13 But substations, you know, I -- I -- 14 I've -- I've worked with Jersey Central Power & 15 Light. I've used -- worked with Public Service. 16 I've worked with Butler Electric. I've worked with 17 -- what's the one way up there in, like, West 18 Milford? It's -- it's, like, a New York one. 19 But I've worked with a lot of different 20 utilities over the years. 21 Q. Are you aware of how many existing 22 trees there are on-site that are being preserved? 23 A. Yeah, I have -- they're listed on TR-2 24 and -3, yes. 25 And I'm wondering why you're preserving Page 46 1 with Mr. Farr, who is the prior tree forester to the 2 current tree forester? 3 A. His tenure with the town did overlap 4 with my -- with my tenure with the town. 5 He was -- he was retained after me, 6 but, yeah, I've -- I've known Ron for many years. 7 Q. Are you familiar with Mr. Farr's prior 8 determination requiring the removal of multiple trees 9

he town. 5 He was -- he was retained after me, 6 but, yeah, I've -- I've known Ron for many years. 7 Q. Are you familiar with Mr. Farr's prior 8 determination requiring the removal of multiple trees 9 on site due to their deteriorating condition, as well 10 as due to branches falling that may cause a hazard? 11 A. I haven't seen anything from Mr. Farr 12 on that site -- in regard to the site, but, you know, 13 I -- I know for a fact the trees have not been 14 maintained as -- as they should -- the industry 15 standards of --of pruning trees once every ten years. 16 I know that there's been dead ash trees 17 on the site across from the gas station that have 18 been removed, but I don't have any knowledge of 19 Mr. Farr's presence on the -- on this site at all. 20 Q. Do you have any specific experience 21 with utility arboriculture? 22 A. Do I have experience with arbor 23 horticulture? 24 Q. Utility arboriculture, correct. 25 A. That's -- that's pretty much what I Page 48 1 any of the Tree of Heaven. You're preserving eight 2 Tree of Heaven, which, you know, I'm sure the town 3 would be delighted if you removed them. 4 And for some reason, you're -- you're 5 -- you're preserving a couple of ash trees. And I am 6 wondering, the ash trees that you're preserving, are 7 you treating them to prevent emerald ash borer from 8 -- from their demise? Or why aren't you removing 9 them now? 10 Q. In terms of the ordinance, with respect 11 to the new ordinance, how many specific trees are 12 required? 13 A. Well, that would -- 14 MR. TURTELTAUB: Can you just clarify, 15 when you say "required," required to be removed or 16 required to be -- 17 MS. PORTER: Required to be replaced. 18 MR. TURTELTAUB: Okay. Thank you. 19 THE WITNESS: I haven't -- I haven't 20 done that analysis, but I'm sure that -- that 21 Mr. Kipp has. And I would trust his -- his judgment 22 in making that determination. 23 BY MS. PORTER: 24 Q. Okay. Are you aware or have you been 25 made aware that the Applicant is not legally subject

65b96228-b9ab-4f72-9291-fa4a14ff04c8 13 (Pages 49 to 52) Page 49 1 to the new tree ordinance by virtue of the Time of 2 Application Rule? 3 A. It's actually -- it's one of the few 4 exemptions in the ordinance that -- that exempts 5 utilities. 6 I would -- I would presume that you 7 fall under that. It's my understanding that you've 8 voluntarily -- Public Service has voluntary -- 9 voluntarily subjected itself to the ordinance. 10 Q. Right. 11 So you're actually getting into my next 12 question. There are actually two important 13 provisions within the tree ordinance, one is the one 14 that you just alluded to that I'll get into in a 15 minute, but the other one is a legal measure which 16 protects applicants who are applying who are deemed 17 complete from changes in zoning. 18 And that was specifically recognized in 19 the context of this application; however, PSE&G 20 voluntarily agreed to comply with the new tree 21 ordinance in an effort to further preserve trees. 22 So you do not have any knowledge of 23 that particular applicability of the Time of 24 Application Rule? 25 A. I was -- I was aware that -- that PSE&G Page 51 1 mandated, you have clearance standards that are 2 mandated. 3 And, you know, it's really not up to a 4 municipality to tell the utility how to run their 5 business when they're directed by the New Jersey 6 Board of Public Utilities to begin with. 7 So all we can do is suggest. Over the 8 years, as the Board of Public Utilities has changed 9 their pruning standards, we went from having large 10 trees under wires that were -- that were 11 directionally pruned around wires to the fact that, 12 you know, we have to plant compact trees under wires 13 now at -- because the standards are just so strict 14 that it's impossible to have matching tree species 15 going down a street where there's overhead wires. 16 So we've had -- you know, 17 municipalities have had to change their methods of 18 providing street trees, you know, all because of the 19 different standards over the years. 20 So in terms of a large transmission 21 station such as this, where security is a problem and 22 everything else, there's so many factors that are 23 involved. 24 But all I can say is there's some very 25 nice trees on this site which I would hope that you Page 50 1 has voluntarily subjected themselves to the scrutiny 2 of the ordinance. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. And

24 But all I can say is there's some very 25 nice trees on this site which I would hope that you Page 50 1 has voluntarily subjected themselves to the scrutiny 2 of the ordinance. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. And that's why you're here before the 5 board. 6 Q. Right. 7 And then I guess that second provision 8 that you alluded to, which is actually what I was 9 going to next, is that there are certain exemptions 10 under the tree ordinance, and, importantly, one of 11 them being for utility companies specifically in 12 terms of their replanting, tree preservation, tree 13 removal requirements? 14 A. I'm aware that there is that -- that 15 exemption. 16 Q. And why would you think that that 17 exemption would exist for utility companies versus 18 other developers or other individuals within the 19 Township? 20 A. Well, in terms of Public Service and 21 their ability to provide electric services to our -- 22 our property owners and residents, your -- your -- 23 your methods are subject to the scrutiny of the New 24 Jersey Board of Public Utilities. 25 So you have pruning standards that are Page 52 1 could alter your plans to preserve as many as 2 possible. 3 Because right now, the way it looks to 4 me, in my -- my view of the site, it looks like you 5 targeted the largest, oldest trees on the site to be 6 removed. 7 And so it -- you know, it just -- it's 8 a disconnect for me. But I don't have all of the 9 information that you do. 10 Q. Thank you. 11 And are you aware of, in connection 12 with this application, the need for the new equipment 13 to locate -- to be located on the site in close 14 proximity to the existing equipment? 15 A. I'm not aware of that, you know, the 16 methods that are -- that are necessary. 17 My understanding of electric 18 transmission is pretty much confined to plugging into 19 an outlet. 20 So I don't begin to, you know, 21 understand or even -- my ability to comment on what 22 your equipment needs are on the site and where they 23 should be placed. 24 It's not a large site. You probably 25 don't have a lot of opportunities. But if you do

65b96228-b9ab-4f72-9291-fa4a14ff04c8 14 (Pages 53 to 56) Page 53 1 have any opportunities that could save trees, we'd 2 like to see -- see you do that. 3 Q. Thank you. 4 Are you aware of or familiar with 5 provisions governing distances from trees to 6 electrical equipment, with the tree fall area, so to 7 speak? 8 A. Well, it's usually 10 feet to energize 9 conductors, that's the close proximity act. 10 But, you know, we have -- in terms of 11 distribution, we have, you know, single phase 12 electric primary, you have open wire primary on a tee 13 on top of a pole. That requires, you know, greater 14 -- greater clearance, but -- and it, you know, 15 there's all different kinds of configurations. 16 But all I know is 10 feet is about as 17 close as you want to get to anything other than house 18 service. You know, which most tree companies are -- 19 and many public works departments are capable of 20 clearing a house service, but not an electric 21 primary. 22 Q. And have you ever personally 23 experienced or experienced in connection with one of 24 the jobs that you worked on an outage, an electrical 25 outage associated with a tree that fell on a power Page 55 1 Q. Thank you. 2 Do you have any familiarity with 3 IEEE 979, which recommends trees located 30 -- be 4 located 30 feet beyond the fall potential to 5 structures? 6 A. Yeah, that's beyond my knowledge. 7 Q. Okay, thank you. 8 A. I'm not a utility arborist. 9 Q. Are you aware of any trees on PSE&G's 10 site which are, either by statute or by regulation, 11 specifically preserved? 12 A. I'm not aware of any on the site. I 13 just -- I just know you got some pretty large trees 14 over there. 15 Q. Thank you. 16 And, lastly, are you familiar with the 17 topography of this site? 18 A. Visually, yes. 19 You know, just from the outside looking 20 in. 21 Q. So you are familiar with it, how it 22 slopes downward? 23 A. Absolutely. 24 Q. Okay, thank you. 25 MS. PORTER: Okay. Page 54 1 line or power equipment? 2 A. Oh, yes. 3 All the time. 4 Q. And is it your understanding that it is 5 for that reason why there are tree clearance 6 requirements in place? 7 A. Yes. 8 You know, one of the pet peeves that 9 most municipalities have is when a utility attaches a 10 span guide from a utility pole to a tree. 11 And we had a humerus situation in West 12 Orange a few years ago where the tree -- there was a 13 span

municipalities have is when a utility attaches a 10 span guide from a utility pole to a tree. 11 And we had a humerus situation in West 12 Orange a few years ago where the tree -- there was a 13 span guide attached to a town tree, and the tree fell 14 over and it pulled the utility pole down. 15 It is -- so, so there's always -- there 16 is always interaction with the utility companies and, 17 you know, there is always an issue when a tree dies 18 and the cooperation is requested and needed from a 19 utility company in providing assistance to a 20 municipality in removing trees. 21 And, you know, for the most part, you 22 know, West Orange has maintained a good relationship 23 with Public Service over the years. 24 And, you know, it's -- it's, you know, 25 one hand washes the other. Page 56 1 I have no further questions. 2 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Members of the board? 3 Let's start with Mr. Schwarzbaum and 4 work our way through. 5 VICE CHAIRMAN SCHWARZBAUM: So, 6 Mr. Linson, I think you testified that your -- you 7 are opining that certain trees should be removed -- 8 should not be removed, sorry. 9 Is that correct? 10 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 11 VICE CHAIRMAN SCHWARZBAUM: And you 12 also testified that you -- that your opinion -- that 13 you didn't look at what the actual construction needs 14 of the utility are. 15 Is that correct? 16 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 17 VICE CHAIRMAN SCHWARZBAUM: So in your 18 professional opinion, have you ever removed trees 19 because of construction needs? 20 THE WITNESS: Oh, all the time. If you 21 can't make a tree safe, if the root system is 22 compromised, if there is a structural deficiency in 23 the tree, they need to be removed. 24 VICE CHAIRMAN SCHWARZBAUM: So the -- 25 THE WITNESS: Safety first.

65b96228-b9ab-4f72-9291-fa4a14ff04c8 15 (Pages 57 to 60) Page 57 1 VICE CHAIRMAN SCHWARZBAUM: Okay. So 2 is there a reason why you didn't look at the 3 construction plans of where the substation is? 4 THE WITNESS: Well, basically I was -- 5 my -- I was engaged only to interact about the trees 6 themselves. I was not shown the replacement 7 landscape plan or any of the -- the soils or -- or 8 even the -- topography map. I didn't see any of 9 that, I just saw TR-01, 02, 03. 10 VICE CHAIRMAN SCHWARZBAUM: Okay. So I 11 guess where -- what I am asking is, you're opining 12 based upon just one item as opposed to looking at the 13 overall project. 14 Is that correct? 15 THE WITNESS: That's exactly right. 16 So, you know, I'm looking at these as 17 specimen trees, and I'm looking at the purpose of the 18 ordinance is to preserve them to the greatest extent 19 possible. And I'm introducing the possibility that 20 maybe -- maybe not all of these trees have been 21 looked at individually as possible candidates for 22 preservation with altering the facility. 23 I would only -- only, you know, an 24 engineer designing the facility can say what the 25 possibilities may be. I just say that there is room Page 59 1 VICE CHAIRMAN SCHWARZBAUM: Okay. 2 That's it. 3 I just have -- I am a having a hard 4 time connecting the dots. 5 That's all I have to say. 6 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Thank you, 7 Mr. Schwarzbaum. 8 Mr. Barbee, you're up next. 9 MR. BARBEE: Initially I did have a 10 question, but Irv did touch on it because of the lack 11 of -- well, no. 12 I have no question. I'll leave it 13 there. 14 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Thank you, Mr. Barbee. 15 Mr. Eben, questions for this witness 16 based on his testimony? 17 MR. EBEN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 18 Mr. Linson, in accordance with this 19 last testimony that you were doing answering 20 questioning from -- 21 THE WITNESS: Could you repeat that 22 because I'm a little hard of hearing and if somebody 23 could express that a little louder. 24 Was that a question? 25 MR. EBEN: Hold on, I'm just trying to Page 58 1 closer to Prospect Avenue to run these -- it looks 2 like -- I am speculating that it's -- that it's a 3 water detention facilities, but it seems to me that 4 if they remove closer to Prospect Avenue, should be 5 able to save a number of these trees. 6 VICE CHAIRMAN SCHWARZBAUM: Is that 7 what -- I don't know since I haven't read a

but it seems to me that 4 if they remove closer to Prospect Avenue, should be 5 able to save a number of these trees. 6 VICE CHAIRMAN SCHWARZBAUM: Is that 7 what -- I don't know since I haven't read a report, 8 is that what that -- this -- the -- who's the 9 engineer? Mr. Blanton is going to -- Ms. Blanton is 10 going to testify? 11 MR. TURTELTAUB: Yes, we'll get into 12 some of that testimony. 13 VICE CHAIRMAN SCHWARZBAUM: I guess 14 I'm -- I'm just asking that, while I respect you as 15 an expert, I'm having a difficult time looking at 16 accepting expert testimony without looking at the 17 overall project. 18 And, you know, as you testified, there 19 are circumstances when you can remove trees. 20 Is that correct? 21 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 22 VICE CHAIRMAN SCHWARZBAUM: And there 23 -- you also testified that we have one of the 24 strictest tree replacement ordinances in the state. 25 THE WITNESS: That's true. Page 60 1 get my thoughts together. 2 You testified -- you testified that 3 tree maintenance is basically every ten years. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 MR. EBEN: That means whoever owns the 6 property has to come in on the property and direct a 7 contractor what to do. 8 And we -- we don't know or maybe you do 9 know, did PSE&G do that through the course of 10 100 years of owning the property. 11 THE WITNESS: It's -- it's generally 12 accepted that most trees need some form of 13 maintenance at least once every ten years and some 14 trees more frequently than that, particularly some of 15 these older pin oak trees, when a branch dies it's 16 eight inches in diameter and 40-feet long and it's 17 hanging over the street. You know, you can't wait 18 ten years to prune it, you got to get it before it 19 falls and causes damage. 20 So, but, you know, these trees, they're 21 -- there's been a low level of maintenance on this 22 site, and that's why there's been so many invasive 23 species, involuntary species that have popped up over 24 -- over the years, simply because they -- they 25 weren't -- you know, they didn't mow the areas or

65b96228-b9ab-4f72-9291-fa4a14ff04c8 16 (Pages 61 to 64) Page 61 1 whatever and they allowed these trees to grow up in 2 their -- in place of grass. 3 MR. EBEN: These trees need a certain 4 amount of area to breathe for them to be -- maybe 5 that's the wrong term, but you can't have a tree next 6 to another tree, it's like six inches away. 7 How does one tree -- it needs room to 8 grow, correct? 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 10 Well, the trees that are in a park or 11 along a street, the exposure to the public 12 necessitates that they be maintained at a higher 13 level. 14 This is an isolated location where 15 access is limited for security reasons and 16 consequently, the safety factor to the public is nil. 17 I mean, trees still pose a threat. I believe there 18 was reference to Walter Kipp and citing some trees 19 that needed to be removed on the site. 20 And that's the one thing about TR-2 and 21 -3. It didn't indicate the condition of the trees, 22 it just gave the diameter and the species and was it 23 going to be preserved or removed. Many of those 24 trees could have -- the reason for the removal could 25 be because they were in poor condition and they were Page 63 1 it, then it -- we resort to the required replacement 2 per the table in the ordinance and we have to reduce 3 it to a bean counting situation as opposed to an 4 emotional, aesthetic desire to preserve a healthy 5 specimen tree. 6 MR. EBEN: In your history as a tree 7 expert, have you come across where a developer has to 8 -- looks at the site, and if he's a halfway decent 9 developer or contractor, he has a schedule that he 10 has to meet and sometimes the tree work is in the way 11 of his schedule. 12 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 13 I mean, when you look at a site, you -- 14 your goal is to try to preserve trees around the 15 perimeter of a property that provide a benefit to the 16 public, to adjacent property owners. 17 Every site has setback requirements, 18 and within that, that area that's defined by -- by 19 ordinance, by zoning requirements, activity is 20 permitted, and occasionally you have to go over the 21 line and get a variance to perform the needed 22 improvement on the site. 23 But it's rare, and most developers 24 choose to develop a site conforming with the local 25 ordinances. Page 62 1 -- removal was warranted. 2 So it's -- more information could have 3 been a little helpful. 4 MR.