12 12 24 PSEG West Orange BOA ZB 24 06 PSEG 35 Mt Pleasant Ave Condensed

re, and most developers 24 choose to develop a site conforming with the local 25 ordinances. Page 62 1 -- removal was warranted. 2 So it's -- more information could have 3 been a little helpful. 4 MR. EBEN: What about the fact that 5 development, West Orange has had development over the 6 years that I have lived in town, and that development 7 is commercial development, because commercial 8 development brings in better tax revenue than just a 9 house here and a house three. 10 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Is there a question, 11 Mr. Eben, please? 12 MR. EBEN: Yes. 13 I'm asking what his experience is with 14 the clearing of trees in a property because you need 15 to have room for an existing tree to breathe and to 16 grow. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, one of the first 18 things they teach you when you go to forestry school 19 is trees are a renewable natural resource. 20 So it's necessary to remove trees. But 21 when you remove trees, it's -- you should be 22 replacing them. 23 And this ordinance does provide for 24 that. You know, if it's determined that a tree has 25 to be removed, there's no other way to work around Page 64 1 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Anything else, 2 Mr. Eben? 3 MR. EBEN: If you don't -- if you don't 4 conform, what's the -- what's the -- 5 THE WITNESS: Well, there's only -- 6 there's only -- the -- the -- the purpose of a zoning 7 board is to review whether there's a hardship 8 involved or not, and whether -- whether a variance 9 can be granted or not. 10 If there's another way of doing 11 something, then the board would, you know, it most 12 likely would deny an application if -- if it caused 13 diminishing value in the neighborhood or it was -- it 14 was so contrary to all of the other development in 15 the area. 16 If it's too close to the road or too, 17 you know, just too high. It's -- it's too large. 18 You've occupied too much space, so you have a bulk 19 variance need. 20 So, you know, just all of these things 21 have to be weighed and, you know, collectively the 22 members of the board make a decision and 23 recommendation and you -- you vote and, you know, the 24 majority wins. 25 MR. EBEN: Thank you very much.

65b96228-b9ab-4f72-9291-fa4a14ff04c8 17 (Pages 65 to 68) Page 65 1 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Thank you, Mr. Eben. 2 Mr. Ricci? 3 MR. RICCI: Yes. 4 Mr. Linson, you said you did not look 5 at the rest of the plans other than the tree removal 6 plan. 7 Am I correct? 8 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 9 MR. RICCI: Okay. You said that West 10 Orange has one of the strictest or the strictest tree 11 ordinance that you know of. 12 Is that correct? 13 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 14 MR. RICCI: Okay. You said that if you 15 take down a tree, a large tree, and there was 16 difference sizes, different, you know, 36 to 40, 40 17 to 45, whatever those numbers were, there was a 18 replacement ratio that you had to replace that with, 19 correct? 20 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 21 MR. RICCI: And you said that the 22 current plan meets or exceeds all the requirements of 23 that replacement number. 24 Is that correct? 25 THE WITNESS: That's my understanding Page 67 1 trees, those oak trees are providing tree canopy 2 coverage. They're for air filtration, heat -- heat 3 island, you know, so they're -- what we're trying to 4 do is balance it. All right, you want to remove a 5 healthy tree? 6 Well, we're going to plant other trees 7 somewhere else in town if you don't do it on your own 8 property. 9 One of the -- one of the most 10 aggressive things I've ever seen in an ordinance is 11 in this ordinance, and it requires existing parking 12 lots to plant trees within the next, I don't know, 13 couple of years. 14 MR. RICCI: That's not part of this 15 application. 16 THE WITNESS: No, but -- but it is -- 17 it is -- I am just, I am just telling you -- 18 CHAIRMAN NEUER: No, Mr. Linson, you're 19 going far afield. You've answered Mr. Ricci's 20 question. 21 Mr. Ricci, do you have any further 22 questions? 23 MR. RICCI: Yes, I'm worried that if 24 the -- the impression I'm getting from you, and you 25 could say I'm right, I'm wrong, is that you -- Page 66 1 of Walt Kipp's appraisal of the application, that it 2 complies with the replacement requirements. 3 MR. RICCI: Okay. Then my next 4 question is, twice, when you were talking, you 5 referred to that -- that the meeting the ordinance, 6 but it is a bean counting method. 7 What did you mean by that? 8 THE WITNESS: It's -- it's -- it's what 9 the Township committee, in passing this ordinance, 10 deemed to be justification for removing a healthy 11

bean counting method. 7 What did you mean by that? 8 THE WITNESS: It's -- it's -- it's what 9 the Township committee, in passing this ordinance, 10 deemed to be justification for removing a healthy 11 tree and compensation for the removal of a healthy 12 tree. 13 And it's stronger than most towns. 14 So, you know, it -- they tried to make 15 the decision, the process as black and white as 16 possible. If this is what you want to do, this is 17 what you're going to have to pay in compensation for 18 the right to remove a healthy tree. And they've -- 19 West Orange has a very, very strict replacement 20 schedule, and it's designed as a deterrent for you 21 not to take a healthy tree down, you know. 22 But, you know, if you really want to do 23 that, I mean, bring it down on a smaller scale. 24 If somebody wants to put a pool in 25 their backyard but they have to remove four big oak Page 68 1 despite West Orange having the strictest tree 2 ordinance in the State of New Jersey, despite the 3 fact this Applicant is exceeding all the requirements 4 of all of that, and despite the fact that you said 5 the forester approved all of this, do you feel that 6 the forester who is working presently -- I don't know 7 how to say this nicely -- does not know what he's 8 doing. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, the forester -- the 10 forester's job is to enforce the ordinance. 11 And people may not like the outcome of 12 that, but the ordinance is the ordinance. 13 And the -- but the preamble to this 14 ordinance, before we get to the compensation for 15 removing healthy trees, the purpose is to protect and 16 foster the existence and health of trees growing 17 within the town borders and to preserve the maximum 18 possible trees in the development of this site or 19 lot; to protect specimen trees. Encourage innovative 20 design and grading to promote the protection of the 21 existing trees and to prevent indiscriminate, 22 uncontrolled excessive removal of cutting of trees, 23 et cetera, et cetera. 24 That's right from -- from section C in 25 findings and purpose of this ordinance.

65b96228-b9ab-4f72-9291-fa4a14ff04c8 18 (Pages 69 to 72) Page 69 1 MR. RICCI: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: So the question is have 3 we -- has the Applicant preserved the maximum number 4 of trees or not. And you that have seen the rest of 5 the site plans and you've -- you're weighing all of 6 the options of, you know, all I can say is has -- has 7 the Applicant considered altering their plans to 8 preserve more trees. And so that's-- 9 MR. RICCI: Okay, that's all right. 10 THE WITNESS: -- that's basically all 11 -- 12 MR. RICCI: I appreciate your answer. 13 Thank you. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay, all right. 15 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Thank you, Mr. Ricci. 16 Mr. Scott, you're up. 17 MR. SCOTT: Thank you. 18 Can you hear me? 19 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Loud and clear. 20 MR. SCOTT: Tremendous. 21 Mr. Linson, thank you very much for 22 being here. 23 So the term "strictest" has been thrown 24 around tonight and perhaps I'm going to ask you if 25 you meant that West Orange had the strongest tree Page 71 1 into a house that's been neglected, the maintenance 2 has been neglected, you've got a -- you've got a 3 bunch of invasive trees growing up between the 4 garages and you want to take them down, they didn't 5 belong there to begin with. 6 So I think going down to that 7 two-and-a-half inch diameter tree removal, most of 8 the municipalities I know are at -- are at six 9 inches. 10 So I think -- I think it's a stretch 11 personally, but, you know, the governing body of West 12 Orange are tree preservationists, and they want a 13 protected two-and-a-half inch diameter tree, God 14 bless them, you know. 15 And somebody is going to have to 16 replace a tree in a park or a parking lot or 17 somewhere where it's going to do some good, if they 18 can't replace it in their own -- on their own 19 property. 20 MR. SCOTT: Thank you. 21 And you mentioned that the West Orange 22 zoning law, whereas in many other towns the authority 23 lies with the police or is within the police law, but 24 ours is within the land use law. 25 And in your professional opinion, is Page 70 1 ordinance in the State of New Jersey, not the 2 strictest. 3 THE WITNESS: Could you rephrase that 4 question just -- 5 MR. SCOTT: Would you say that West 6 Orange has the strongest tree ordinance in New Jersey 7 as opposed to the strictest? 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. Now I see what 9 you're saying. 10 Yeah, I would say it is the

COTT: Would you say that West 6 Orange has the strongest tree ordinance in New Jersey 7 as opposed to the strictest? 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. Now I see what 9 you're saying. 10 Yeah, I would say it is the strongest. 11 I mean, I only have knowledge of municipalities, you 12 know, north of the Raritan pretty much. 13 But I am the contract forester for 14 several towns and I -- I review tree removal 15 applications for several towns. No municipality that 16 I've worked with has an ordinance that is as 17 encompassing as this one is. 18 MR. SCOTT: Thank you. 19 I think it's a very encompassing and 20 strong ordinance also. 21 Would you say that it is perhaps a role 22 model for the rest of the state? 23 THE WITNESS: Well, I have a little bit 24 of a problem with going down to two-inch diameter 25 trees to be removed. You know, if somebody moves Page 72 1 that a better place to have it? 2 THE WITNESS: I think -- I think it 3 works well in a community like this. It's -- and, 4 you know, there's so many different forms of 5 government, you know. 6 But basically I like the fact that if 7 the -- if your forester reviews an application and he 8 finds it's excessive and, you know, you know, like, I 9 would love to save that 58-inch diameter London 10 plane, if he should say, you know, I'm agreeing with 11 everything on this plan except you've got to save 12 this one tree and he denies it, the best part about 13 having it in land use is it goes before a board like 14 this where people like yourself question it and you 15 weigh the alternatives and you -- and you see, you 16 know, has the Applicant attempted to preserve this 17 tree? 18 Are there any alternatives to 19 preserving the tree? And if you've exhausted those 20 alternatives, then you're going to vote to approve 21 the application and let the Applicant remove the 22 trees. 23 But, you know, you -- you, as a member 24 of this board, you know, your voice is important. 25 And, you know, by leaving the entire responsibility

65b96228-b9ab-4f72-9291-fa4a14ff04c8 19 (Pages 73 to 76) Page 73 1 up to your forester, you know, Walt Kipp is -- 2 whatever decision he makes, it's scrutinized. And he 3 could be blamed, you know, because not everybody in 4 West Orange is going to agree with his decisions and 5 there's always going to be someone who disapproves of 6 the granting of that ordinance for whatever reason. 7 And it's -- it's usually somebody, you 8 know, somebody from the other side of town that is 9 going to object about a tree that is removed on, you 10 know, over in South Orange end of town, you know. 11 You know, they drove past and they see a solid stump 12 and they say, oh, that was a healthy tree. 13 Well, not -- not all dead trees are 14 hollow in the -- you know, so basically, you know, 15 having expertise and having support of other people 16 -- in fact, and the way this ordinance is structured, 17 a lot of the heavy lifting is done for Walt Kipp by 18 requiring a licensed tree expert to certify the 19 tree's dead. The tree's not dead but it has this 20 defect. 21 You know, I mean, it's -- it's -- it's 22 a lot. It's a lot of hoops to jump through. But -- 23 but it's for the good. 24 And, you know, I mean I -- 25 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Mr. Linson, I think Page 75 1 open space that you've preserved. 2 MR. SCOTT: Absolutely. 3 You've mentioned that the large 4 specimen trees, the ones that are 100 to maybe even 5 150 years old, and you've mentioned their diameter 6 and their height; would you say they are as important 7 as champion trees, which are on the State of New 8 Jersey's big tree list? 9 THE WITNESS: They may not be on as 10 large -- you know, in order to be on the big tree 11 list, you know, it's got to be the biggest tree of 12 that species. 13 Now, West Orange, I know they have at 14 least one tree because I found it in Llewellyn Park, 15 it's an American Hornbeam. 16 So, but they could be candidates, they 17 could be potential candidates to be the champion tree 18 of New Jersey. 19 There's certainly, you know, a 58-inch 20 diameter London plane is -- is enormous. 21 MR. SCOTT: Okay. 22 And would you please go over again how 23 long it takes for new trees to grow to the size of 24 the large specimen trees that you've talked about 25 tonight? Page 74 1 you've answered the question. 2 Thank you. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay, good. 4 I could talk forever. 5 (Simultaneous

to the size of 24 the large specimen trees that you've talked about 25 tonight? Page 74 1 you've answered the question. 2 Thank you. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay, good. 4 I could talk forever. 5 (Simultaneous Speaking.) 6 MR. SCOTT: And would you agree, 7 Mr. Linson, that I believe it's your testimony here 8 that the purpose of the ordinance is to maintain the 9 tree canopy overall? Can you hear me? I want to 10 make sure you can hear me. 11 CHAIRMAN NEUER: He can hear you. 12 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 13 Replacing trees is something that we -- 14 we all can do to slow the process of climate change 15 and it just makes good sense, if you're removing a 16 tree, even if it is dead, to replace it with another 17 tree and not -- not just replace it if it's a healthy 18 tree. 19 But, you know, basically the quality of 20 life, we -- we appreciate our trees. 21 We -- you know, we don't always -- 22 always think about it, but, you know, the shade they 23 provide, the wind break they provide, the aesthetics, 24 the quality of life that -- that you enjoy in West 25 Orange, a lot of it has to do with the trees and the Page 76 1 THE WITNESS: Well, these -- these 2 largest trees are, you know, approximately a 3 hundred years old, maybe a little more. 4 But, you know, for a new tree to, you 5 know, they may never -- they may never grow to that 6 size. 7 But, you know, to -- to the extent 8 that, let's say you're planting a tree and it's 9 10-feet tall, how long will it take to be 50-feet 10 tall? Probably 25, 30 years. 11 How long will it take to be 70 or 12 80-feet tall? Well, maybe 75 years. 13 So it's just -- it's -- it's a 14 tradeoff. It's a tradeoff. 15 MR. SCOTT: Right. Right and -- 16 THE WITNESS: I mean it is -- 17 MR. SCOTT: I'm sorry. 18 Go ahead. 19 THE WITNESS: We're -- we're -- we're 20 fooling with Mother Nature. And she has a mind of 21 her own. 22 MR. SCOTT: Yes, absolutely. 23 You also testified, I don't know that 24 you've listened to other testimony from previous 25 hearings, but it was testified here by the presenters

65b96228-b9ab-4f72-9291-fa4a14ff04c8 20 (Pages 77 to 80) Page 77 1 of PSE&G that many of the trees on the property are 2 not in fact facing the substation itself. 3 How important is that environmentally 4 in your professional opinion? 5 THE WITNESS: It's easiest to preserve 6 trees that are around the perimeter of the property 7 and like right at the perimeter of the property. 8 One of the -- the problems with these 9 -- these large trees is that they're in the interior; 10 in the interior, whereas the needs of the public 11 expands and their -- their need for greater 12 quantities of electricity expand, you know, and they 13 want to increase the size of the facility and its 14 productivity. 15 These -- these trees, I wish they were 16 at the perimeter of the property, but they're on the 17 interior of the property. 18 And -- but they do presently screen the 19 height of -- of the facility. 20 I mean, you can see them as you're on 21 the sidewalk on Prospect looking down in there, you 22 can see the size of these London plane trees and 23 these horse chestnut, you know, they're just -- 24 they're at the prime of their life, you know. 25 So when they're gone and there's new Page 79 1 That's the job of elected officials, 2 just as we are -- we can't question the statute. 3 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Do you have a 4 question? 5 MR. SCOTT: Thank you. 6 No, I'm making a statement, Mr. Neuer. 7 Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN NEUER: But this is not the 9 time for making statements. 10 MR. SCOTT: No, the -- actually it is. 11 CHAIRMAN NEUER: This is not the time 12 -- 13 MR. SCOTT: The witness -- excuse me -- 14 I'm going to answer you now. 15 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Gee whiz. 16 MR. SCOTT: The witness mentioned that 17 the town council passed this law. 18 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Yes. And we're going 19 to -- 20 (Simultaneous Speaking.) 21 MR. SCOTT: And I agree -- 22 CHAIRMAN NEUER: -- enforce it. 23 That's our job. 24 MR. SCOTT: Yes. And -- and what I'm 25 saying -- excuse me. Page 78 1 trees to replant them, well, you're going to be 2 looking at that facility for a long time. You know, 3 till they -- they even begin to screen the facility 4 from public view. 5 MR. SCOTT: Beyond the -- the visual of 6 the screening, that the trees may not be covering the 7 substation, itself, environmentally they provide a 8 very important service to this township, do they not? 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I -- I think, as

the screening, that the trees may not be covering the 7 substation, itself, environmentally they provide a 8 very important service to this township, do they not? 9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I -- I think, as I 10 said, those traffic lights, I'm sure everybody sat at 11 a traffic light on that intersection on Mount 12 Pleasant and Prospect, and there's four separate 13 lights. 14 And there's a lot of carbon monoxide 15 from the cars that are backed up at the lights. And, 16 you know, you only got the golf course and we've got 17 -- got, you know, we've got Eagle Rock reservation. 18 We've -- we're got a lot -- a lot of trees going for 19 us but -- but you can never can have too many trees. 20 MR. SCOTT: Okay. And I think that 21 that should be all of my questions for now. 22 Just that I agree it's not the job of 23 this appointed board to question the council, the 24 elected council, on whether it's the strongest, 25 safety, strictest law for replacing trees or not. Page 80 1 CHAIRMAN NEUER: We are -- 2 MR. SCOTT: Excuse me, sir. 3 CHAIRMAN NEUER: There is no excuse for 4 that. 5 You're out of order. 6 MR. SCOTT: And what I am saying -- 7 there's no excuse for your interrupting. 8 CHAIRMAN NEUER: You're out of order. 9 MR. SCOTT: You're out of order. 10 No, you're out of order. 11 CHAIRMAN NEUER: I don't interrupt, I 12 rule. 13 MR. SCOTT: You're interrupting, and 14 you don't rule me. 15 CHAIRMAN NEUER: You are out of order, 16 sir. 17 MR. SCOTT: We are out of order. 18 CHAIRMAN NEUER: You finished asking 19 your -- 20 MR. SCOTT: You are out of order, 21 Mr. Neuer. 22 CHAIRMAN NEUER: This is the time to 23 ask questions, Mr. Scott. 24 MR. SCOTT: We can sit here and 25 continue this forever.

65b96228-b9ab-4f72-9291-fa4a14ff04c8 21 (Pages 81 to 84) Page 81 1 CHAIRMAN NEUER: You can go ahead. 2 Go ahead, Mr. Scott. 3 MR. SCOTT: I'm going to go ahead. 4 I agree with the witness's statement, 5 it is not the job of this appointed board to 6 undermine the elected council. 7 Thank you. 8 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Anything else, 9 Mr. Scott? 10 (No Response.) 11 CHAIRMAN NEUER: I take that as a no. 12 Mr. Linson, it's so good to see you 13 again. We've worked together in the past. 14 I respect your expertise. 15 Have you been to any of the prior 16 hearings on this application? 17 THE WITNESS: A little louder, if you 18 could. 19 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Have you been to any 20 of the prior hearings on this application? 21 THE WITNESS: Oh no. 22 For this application, no. 23 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Do you know why it is 24 that the development is such that those trees are 25 being removed? Page 83 1 affected the -- our maintenance of street trees, and 2 I'm sure it's affected -- since 9/11 and some -- some 3 expansive utility outages, I know that they have got 4 more involved in providing distribution and oversight 5 and security of facilities like this. 6 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Let's talk about this 7 facility. Do you know of anything at this facility 8 that violates the BPU guidelines with respect to 9 maintenance of trees? 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'm not -- I'm not 11 aware of anything. 12 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Okay. I know you have 13 a lot of expertise, sir. 14 Do you have an expertise in land use 15 law. 16 THE WITNESS: Do I have expertise -- 17 CHAIRMAN NEUER: Expertise. Expertise 18 in land use law. 19 THE WITNESS: Expertise? 20 Only as it -- as it -- my -- my 21 knowledge is minimal. I do review a lot of 22 applications for other municipalities in terms of 23 landscaping and, you know, coming up with solutions 24 to abate concern that the residents may have. 25 But I know there's different kinds of Page 82 1 THE WITNESS: I haven't -- I haven't 2 any knowledge of what's gone on before with this 3 board and what they've heard. 4 I was asked to give testimony simply on 5 the -- on the quality of the existing trees and the 6 possibility that, you know, perhaps there hadn't been 7 thought in preserving them to the maximum possible 8 ability of the Applicant. 9 CHAIRMAN NEUER: But you didn't review 10 the transcripts or the videos of the prior testimony 11 as to why the development was such