July 30, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

AGOFF: You have to speak 4 into the mic because people on Zoom is listening. 5 There's people out there listening. 6 MS. SMALL: Oh. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 8 MS. SMALL: Hi, everybody. 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 10 MS. SMALL: I was a land use planner 11 -- 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Could you spell your 13 name and say it, please? 14 MS. SMALL: Susan Small, like little. 15 I was a land use planner in the 1970s 16 in Rockaway Township, I was on the town council 17 there, we went through the Rockaway Town Square Mall 18 while I was on the Council and I was a 19 representative to the Planning Board and so I 20 understand what all of you are going through. 21 (Laughter) 22 MS. LITTLE: I'm sorry. 23 MS. SMALL: My first concern was, in 24 listening to this whole presentation, that this is 25 laughable. Page 169 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, ma'am -- 2 MS. SMALL: It -- 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am -- 4 MS. SMALL: I will get to the point. 5 Please. 6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Right now. 7 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Question. 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Right now, question. 9 MS. SMALL: But you're not allowing 10 real communication. I'm communicating very well. 11 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: You're rude. 12 MS. SMALL: I am telling you that 966 13 units -- 14 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: Let her speak. 15 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: Let her speak. 16 MS. SMALL: -- to just provide or 17 meet -- 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am -- 19 MS. SMALL: -- municipal -- 20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am -- 21 MS. SMALL: -- standards -- 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am -- 23 MS. SMALL: -- of a hundred -- 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am -- 25 MS. SMALL: -- affordable units --

44 (Pages 170 to 173) Page 170 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am -- 2 MS. SMALL: -- is -- 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: -- listen -- 4 MS. SMALL: -- outrageous. 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, it's not 960 6 units. You're wrong. 7 MS. SMALL: How many. 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, ma'am, ask 9 the man a question. 10 MS. SMALL: All right. How many 11 units? I'm sorry, I must have misheard because it 12 wasn't easy to hear. 13 MR. ANDERSON: It's 496 units, 966 14 parking spaces. 15 MS. SMALL: Okay. Do you know what 16 Warner Road looks like? 17 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, I do. 18 MS. SMALL: Two lanes. 19 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. 20 MS. SMALL: And it's blocked at the 21 end. It's a dead-end. 22 MR. ANDERSON: Yes -- 23 MS. SMALL: Yes. 24 MR. ANDERSON: -- I understand that. 25 MS. SMALL: 400 units and 900 parking Page 171 1 spaces and you have apartments that are going to 2 have three bedrooms, teenagers, younger children -- 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, ma'am -- 4 MS. SMALL: I -- 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, please, a 6 question. 7 MS. SMALL: You're not going to be 8 serving the community as a whole. 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am -- 10 MS. SMALL: The -- 11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am -- 12 MS. SMALL: -- parking -- 13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, I'm going to 14 throw you off in a minute. 15 MS. SMALL: -- the traffic is not 16 bearable -- 17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am -- 18 MS. SMALL: -- on Eagle Rock -- 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We're done. 20 MS. SMALL: -- and on Warner. 21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We're done. 22 (Applause by members of the public) 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, you just gave 24 me your bona fides. You should understand the 25 respect you should have for the people in the room. Page 172 1 They're not able to speak because you're testifying. 2 This is a point -- listen to me, please. 3 MS. SMALL: I am. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: This is a point of 5 the meeting. 6 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: No, no. 7 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: No. 8 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: Don't speak to 9 her like a child. 10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: This is the point of 11 the meeting where you ask a question, not testify. 12 If you have a question, please go ahead and ask it. 13 That's what this gentleman is here for. The people 14 want to hear, the Board wants to hear your question 15 and his answer. If you want to testify, come back 16 during public comment, please. 17 MS. SMALL: What is the purpose for 18 this developer wanting to build these units on this 19 land? It's a question. 20

is answer. If you want to testify, come back 16 during public comment, please. 17 MS. SMALL: What is the purpose for 18 this developer wanting to build these units on this 19 land? It's a question. 20 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: To make money. 21 MS. SMALL: What's the purpose? 22 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: To make money. 23 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: To make money. 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: He didn't -- 25 MR. PLOCKER: He didn't testify to Page 173 1 that. 2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, ma'am, you 3 told me who you are and what you did. 4 MS. SMALL: Yes. 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You should 6 understand, the question is appropriate for what he 7 testified to. Okay? Focus on what Mr. Anderson 8 testified to and please ask a question on his 9 testimony. That's the way this works. You know 10 that. 11 MS. SMALL: I'm asking him. What is 12 the purpose of building 400 and some-odd units on 13 this property? 14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: And if he didn't 15 have the answer, then the answer is he doesn't have 16 the answer -- 17 MS. SMALL: Okay. 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: -- which is fine. 19 MS. SMALL: He can answer me honestly. 20 Honesty trumps -- 21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Good. 22 MS. SMALL: -- everything else. No 23 pun intended. 24 MR. ANDERSON: I don't have the 25 answer, it's not a question about engineering.

45 (Pages 174 to 177) Page 174 1 MS. SMALL: You don't have an answer. 2 MR. ANDERSON: It's not an engineering 3 question. It's not part of my testimony. 4 MS. SMALL: Do you have any idea how 5 much a hundred affordable units can be supported by 6 another 300 unaffordable units? 7 MR. ANDERSON: I don't have any 8 knowledge of the business elements of apartment 9 complexes. 10 MS. SMALL: Okay. Do you have 11 knowledge of, have you visited and seen the road 12 that leads into the Highlands at this point and 13 which will go further? 14 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, I have. 15 MS. SMALL: Yes. Do you have any 16 knowledge of the number of vehicles in a unit like 17 what you're building there that has apartments for 18 three bedrooms, was it? Two bedrooms and one- 19 bedroom apartments? 20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ms. Small, he didn't 21 testify to that. I'm going to stop that right 22 there. 23 MS. SMALL: Okay. 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: There will be a 25 traffic engineer who will testify to that. Page 175 1 MS. SMALL: Okay. 2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay? Thank you. 3 MS. SMALL: Did you look at how the 4 Highlands, which was built with 300 units, is parked 5 up on the roads that are there now? Because that's 6 -- that was built in the 1990s, I believe. I moved 7 in in '96, if I'm correct, and it was much less -- 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, you're 9 testifying. 10 MS. SMALL: -- much more sparsely 11 populated -- 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am -- 13 MS. SMALL: -- with cars then than 14 now. 15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ms. Small, you're 16 done. Thank you. Come back and testify later on. 17 MS. SMALL: Okay. 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I appreciate your -- 19 MS. SMALL: Fine. 20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: -- consideration. 21 MS. SMALL: Thank you very much. 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 23 MS. SMALL: And I appreciate you, but 24 put your interests beside and only look at your 25 values. Page 176 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, Ms. 2 Small. Next? 3 MS. SMALL: Thank you. 4 (Applause by members of the public) 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Come up, ma'am. 6 State your name and spell your last name, please. 7 MS. BUTENSKY: Deborah Butensky, 8 B-U-T-E-N-S-K-Y. I live at The Grand, which is 9 south of your project. We also have flooding that 10 exists now, but we also had a problem in December 11 where we had a fire at the entry to The Grand. 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, question, 13 please. 14 MS. BUTENSKY: So the question is: 15 Are you aware of

ts now, but we also had a problem in December 11 where we had a fire at the entry to The Grand. 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, question, 13 please. 14 MS. BUTENSKY: So the question is: 15 Are you aware of the ramifications of a fire that 16 doesn't just involve one fire truck but involves 17 major fire companies coming from four towns and all 18 the ancillary first responders, how is that going to 19 be configured in the structured roadways that you 20 designed? 21 MR. ANDERSON: Well, you could have 22 multiple trucks come to any of those buildings and 23 they could line up in the street to fight the fire, 24 and other emergency vehicles. They all have the 25 ability to pass through the streets. And if there's Page 177 1 -- if it's a fire emergency, they're not going to be 2 worried about parking on the street, they're just 3 going to park on the street where it's most 4 convenient for them to fight the fire. 5 MS. BUTENSKY: But is there enough 6 surface area to get, let's say, ten vehicles -- 7 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 8 MS. BUTENSKY: -- plus first 9 responders and -- 10 MR. ANDERSON: There's thousands of 11 feet of road. 12 MS. BUTENSKY: -- and deal with the 13 ramifications of the cars that can't get in or out 14 because you have one accessway? You've got now 15 thousands of cars. We live -- there's 70 houses. 16 When we had the one fire, it blocked off that little 17 community for hours and you had about 50 cars that 18 couldn't get in and out because there are only 70 19 houses -- 20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am -- 21 MS. BUTENSKY: -- and -- 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, you're 23 testifying. We're going to have the traffic 24 engineer and the fire subcode official to evaluate 25 this information. Everybody on the Board and the

46 (Pages 178 to 181) Page 178 1 record has heard this, it will be evaluated. 2 MS. BUTENSKY: Okay, my next question 3 is -- 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Absolutely. 5 MS. BUTENSKY: -- you are talking 6 about gating off the area to the left and to the 7 right, to the east and to the west, with fencing -- 8 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 9 MS. BUTENSKY: -- to allow the forest 10 to grow. 11 MR. ANDERSON: That's correct. 12 MS. BUTENSKY: On what basis do you 13 feel that that is necessary? 14 MR. ANDERSON: This was done by 15 environmental professionals who incorporated it into 16 the settlement agreement and then into the 17 ordinance, because it was their opinion that the 18 forest was in poor condition, there was no 19 understory because of deer overbrowsing, and it was 20 an unhealthy forest. They felt if you placed your 21 fencing around a significant portion of it, it would 22 regenerate and you would have more saplings grow and 23 more shrubs grow and it would be a healthier forest 24 scenario, it would be healthier for all animals. 25 MS. BUTENSKY: So that particular Page 179 1 study was done in 2020 or earlier, right? Because 2 the settlement happened in March of 2020? 3 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, I don't know the 4 timing but -- 5 MS. BUTENSKY: I'm going to 6 respectfully ask -- 7 MR. ANDERSON: -- that's correct. 8 MS. BUTENSKY: -- -- that somebody 9 review the forest and to evaluate whether that 10 assessment of the health of the forest is accurate, 11 because that was done in 2020, we're now four years 12 beyond that, and the question is, if that could be 13 refuted by experts and we no longer have that 14 fencing, what happens to your calculus regarding the 15 tree replacement? 16 MR. ANDERSON: Well, it's fairly 17 obvious that if we -- or if your fencing is not part 18 of the equation, we are under the required tree 19 replacement. 20 MS. BUTENSKY: So is it possible to 21 respectfully ask that that metric be evaluated -- 22 MR. ANDERSON: No. 23 MS. BUTENSKY: -- meaning the need for 24 the deer fencing -- 25 MR. ANDERSON: We have a legal Page 180 1 agreement and an ordinance that specifies how we are 2 to proceed, and we are proceeding in accordance with 3 that legal document and that ordinance. 4 MS. BUTENSKY: Right, which was -- 5 MR. ANDERSON: And so, I mean, this is 6 what we have to rely on as an applicant. We have to 7 meet that standard, and that's what we are doing. 8

that ordinance. 4 MS. BUTENSKY: Right, which was -- 5 MR. ANDERSON: And so, I mean, this is 6 what we have to rely on as an applicant. We have to 7 meet that standard, and that's what we are doing. 8 MS. BUTENSKY: So I guess my appeal is 9 to the Planning Board to realize that that was done 10 in 2020 and things have changed because we're now 11 dealing with four years. 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, thank you 13 very much, we appreciate it. 14 MS. BUTENSKY: Thank you. 15 MR. WEISLEDER: Good evening. Seth 16 Weisleder, spelled W-E-I-S-L-E-D-E-R. I'm a 17 resident of West Orange and I live on Howell Drive. 18 My question for you is: Building D 19 especially, how many units are in there? And my 20 second part of the question is: Is that the largest 21 building being built on the property? 22 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: What's the 23 question? 24 MR. WEISLEDER: How many units are in 25 Unit D and is that the largest building being built Page 181 1 on the property? 2 MR. ANDERSON: So we have 166 in 3 combined Building D1 and D2. 4 MR. WEISLEDER: And that's a combined 5 building, correct? 6 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, that's combined 7 for D1 and D2. 8 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay. 9 MR. ANDERSON: And C is smaller, B is 10 smaller, A is smaller, and -- 11 MR. WEISLEDER: So would you believe 12 that all of the buildings in the middle are smallest 13 and the closest one to other houses that are already 14 built and occupied is the largest one? 15 MR. ANDERSON: That is a correct 16 assessment. 17 MR. WEISLEDER: Did you not say 18 earlier in your testimony -- oh, by the way, how 19 many parking spots are at the largest building? 20 MR. ANDERSON: We have 192 associated 21 with D1 and 191 associated with D2. 22 MR. WEISLEDER: So a combined total of 23 383? 24 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. 25 MR. WEISLEDER: And that also is the

47 (Pages 182 to 185) Page 182 1 largest amount of parking closest to residents. So 2 I believe in your testimony earlier -- 3 MR. ANDERSON: But the majority of 4 that parking is under the building. 5 MR. WEISLEDER: Right. But you said 6 there was a very nice buffer for everyone but not 7 equal. Would you agree to that? 8 MR. ANDERSON: It's not an equal 9 buffer, no. 10 MR. WEISLEDER: It's not a what? I'm 11 sorry, I didn't hear you. 12 MR. ANDERSON: It's not an equal 13 buffer, there are variable dimensions. 14 MR. WEISLEDER: Right, so what is the 15 purpose of putting the largest building closest to 16 the residents and not in the middle away from the 17 residents? Why couldn't we have one with 105 units 18 closest to Howell Drive? This makes no sense, it's 19 a puzzle. You put a puzzle together; is that 20 correct? Based on what the property owner wanted. 21 MR. ANDERSON: This is what was 22 negotiated as a concept plan that we pushed forward 23 with from the years of negotiating the settlement. 24 MR. WEISLEDER: So this exact plan 25 that we're looking at today was a concept plan that Page 183 1 was negotiated by the town of West Orange, the 2 people of west Highlands and the developer, correct? 3 MR. ANDERSON: Not this exact plan, 4 this is an engineered plan and the building 5 architecture has been refined. 6 MR. WEISLEDER: So how big was 7 Building B when it was negotiated? 8 MR. ANDERSON: I don't recall. 9 MR. WEISLEDER: You don't recall. 10 Okay, but now we're looking at a different plan, but 11 you just said that this was already being 12 negotiated. This was not being negotiated; would we 13 agree on that? 14 MR. ANDERSON: It's location and it's 15 approximate size -- 16 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay, so we're about 17 106 feet set back and about 120 feet, according to 18 scale, closest to my home and the other homes an 19 Howell Drive that are around the cul-de-sac, 20 correct? Based on this visual drawing. 21 MR. ANDERSON: Based on this visual 22 drawing, you have the lots from -- I believe your 23 house is -- 24 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: Can you use the 25 mic? Page 184 1 MR. ANDERSON: Let me -- hold on one 2 moment, please. 3 MR. WEISLEDER: It's okay. 4 MR. ANDERSON: I believe this is your 5 home? 6 MR. WEISLEDER: I'm not going to 7 discuss my personal home at a public hearing, thank 8 you. 9 MR. ANDERSON: Sorry. 10 MR. WEISLEDER: Nor am I going to give 11

DERSON: I believe this is your 5 home? 6 MR. WEISLEDER: I'm not going to 7 discuss my personal home at a public hearing, thank 8 you. 9 MR. ANDERSON: Sorry. 10 MR. WEISLEDER: Nor am I going to give 11 my address out. 12 MR. ANDERSON: I'm sorry. 13 MR. WEISLEDER: Otherwise, I will need 14 police protection. Thank you. 15 MR. ANDERSON: I'm sorry. 16 MR. WEISLEDER: You want to tell me 17 where you live, please? I'm sorry. 18 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah, that's fine. 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Let's move on. 20 MR. ANDERSON: So it's 260 feet to 21 this property. 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We're not asking for 23 your address. 24 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay, thank you. I'm 25 sorry? Page 185 1 MR. ANDERSON: It's 260 feet from the 2 corner of the building down to this property here 3 (indicating). It's 106 feet from here to this 4 property line (indicating). And then you have the 5 depth of this lot, which is approximately -- 6 MR. WEISLEDER: Your scale below says 7 120 feet, so how are you getting more than that? 8 Something is not correct. Would you agree? 9 MR. ANDERSON: 120 feet per inch. 10 MR. WEISLEDER: Oh, per inch, okay. 11 I'm not an engineering or a roofing designer. 12 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. 13 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay. So that's my 14 one question. My other question is the deer 15 fencing. 16 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 17 MR. WEISLEDER: How and what impact of 18 the study has been done and how the construction is 19 going to downslope of putting in fencing and 20 disturbing the soil and other issues of the forest? 21 MR. ANDERSON: I -- 22 MR. WEISLEDER: You're installing 23 fencing. How deep are those poles going to go? 24 What is the materials, what is the structure, and 25 how is that going to affect the steep slope?

48 (Pages 186 to 189) Page 186 1 Because you are doing construction. Installing a 2 fence is construction; would we agree? 3 MR. ANDERSON: It is. 4 MR. WEISLEDER: And that is -- is it 5 also considered development? 6 MR. ANDERSON: It's not by definition 7 -- 8 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay. 9 MR. ANDERSON: -- because it's not 10 part of the disturbed area. But it is only periodic 11 fence posts and -- 12 MR. WEISLEDER: Are those permanent or 13 they will be removed? 14 MR. ANDERSON: No, they're permanent 15 fence posts and -- 16 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay. So in the last 17 four years, have you personally walked through this 18 forest? 19 MR. ANDERSON: In the last how many 20 years? 21 MR. WEISLEDER: Four. 22 MR. ANDERSON: Yes. 23 MR. WEISLEDER: Since that study was 24 done. 25 MR. ANDERSON: Absolutely. Page 187 1 MR. WEISLEDER: Would you agree that 2 there is a lot of garbage and other debris that has 3 destroyed this forest as well? 4 MR. ANDERSON: I would, yes. 5 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay, so it's not just 6 the deer, it's also the forest, so in order for the 7 area -- would you agree that the area that is going 8 to be fenced in needs to be cleaned up first so it 9 can prosper according to this plan or are we just 10 going to put up a fence around a bunch of garbage 11 and -- and other animals? 12 MR. ANDERSON: Well, I know the 13 applicant cleans up various things but there seems 14 to be additional waste deposited there on a regular 15 basis and so, yes, I think they would -- as 16 installing deer fence, they would clean up the area 17 of human debris that -- debris humans have left 18 there -- 19 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay. 20 MR. ANDERSON: -- and -- 21 MR. WEISLEDER: Thank you. And my 22 last question is, I believe you said that those on 23 Howell Drive might see some of the corner building 24 of D where nobody else is going to see the other 25 buildings, so is that true or false? Page 188 1 MR. ANDERSON: I think you -- from 2 that vantage point from the house I was pointing to, 3 we would probably have to enhance the landscaping 4 around that corner of the building a little bit more 5 to provide additional buffering. 6 MR. WEISLEDER: So that would include 7 some additional trees that you are not already 8 planning for? 9 MR. ANDERSON: That's correct. 10 MR. WEISLEDER: Okay, so your 11 testimony today is that you would add more coverage, 12 more trees, to prevent what you said