July 31, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

42 (Pages 162 to 165) Page 162 1 accurately because I don't want to talk, you know, 2 without being accurate on here. The only thing I 3 can mention is what is in the settlement agreement 4 is substantially above what code requires and we 5 will be compliant with that. I don't -- I don't 6 know, I can't tell you where that scoring will put 7 you, whether it's certified, gold, platinum, silver 8 or what have you, or what the equivalent is. 9 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: You mentioned 10 that the three buildings, A, B and C, or maybe it 11 was Mr. Anderson, mentioned that Buildings A, B and 12 C are built so that they could hold solar panels. 13 MR. APPEL: That is correct. So we're 14 designing the roof with additional dead load so that 15 solar panels can be incorporated, so -- 16 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: But you're not 17 incorporating them now. 18 MR. APPEL: Right now, there is not a 19 plan; it's under consideration. So it has not been 20 decided, but we -- what we will commit to is 21 creating the additional dead load as well as any 22 chase space required to make that work. 23 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Any other 24 renewable energy being used on site, co-gen, heat 25 pumps, anything else, or is it just anticipating Page 163 1 solar down the road? 2 MR. APPEL: So other than the EV 3 charging, you know, that's -- that's on there, the 4 mechanical equipment is actually a higher efficiency 5 than what is required by code, so that's one of the 6 reasons why we had to go to the flat roof. 7 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Okay. 8 MR. APPEL: There's -- in the 9 settlement agreement, there's kind of a pretty long 10 list of items. We have to do a light-colored roof 11 and there's a -- there's a -- there's a -- and I 12 don't want to gloss over it very quickly but, you 13 know, that could be a half-hour discussion just on 14 the green stuff. 15 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Well, I think 16 your earlier testimony was fine; really, I'm looking 17 at just how we power the actual apartments and if 18 there's a source of energy other than natural gas. 19 MR. APPEL: There is not an 20 alternative fuel, and even if it was solar, I think 21 you would still have the same types of furnaces and 22 stuff like that, it wouldn't be substituting that. 23 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: All right, I 24 do have to jump around because some of these 25 questions were already asked, but following up on Page 164 1

tuff like that, it wouldn't be substituting that. 23 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: All right, I 24 do have to jump around because some of these 25 questions were already asked, but following up on Page 164 1 what was just discussed with regard to Building D 2 and emergency evacuation -- 3 MR. APPEL: Um-hum. 4 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: -- so if there 5 is a need to evacuate someone from the rear of 6 Building D, which faces the steep slope, can you 7 help me understand how we are addressing the need 8 for the firefighters to get back there with heavy 9 equipment? 10 MR. APPEL: So the firefighters would 11 be able to -- like, that building in itself has, I 12 think, four different stair towers, so there will be 13 stair towers, there will be standpipes, they will 14 come up to fight a fire. In addition, there will be 15 an area of refuge so that somebody who was in an 16 area can go to an area of safe protection, whether 17 that will be an enlarged area within a stair tower 18 or will be a separate firewall separating that area 19 to be an area of refuge. So that will be provided, 20 you know, provided there. Typically what we 21 understand is that if firefighters need to go into 22 an upper floor, they can go in from one side of the 23 building, go through and go to the opposite side of 24 the hallway, pull somebody -- and pull somebody out 25 on the opposite side. Page 165 1 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So you do not 2 anticipate a need for firefighters to evacuate from 3 the rear of the building. 4 MR. APPEL: Code does not require 5 that. 6 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: But -- so I 7 understand that, and I'm not trying to be snarky, 8 you know, it's just if there were an emergency and 9 there's some things you can plan for; some things, 10 you can't. 11 MR. APPEL: Um-hum. 12 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Right? The 13 things you can't plan for, you should. We know the 14 slope is steep; I believe the testimony you gave a 15 moment ago was that on the slope, all of the trees 16 will be undisturbed. Is that right? 17 MR. APPEL: So on the slope, there's a 18 line on the site plan that is a disturbance line, so 19 for clearing and then -- so everything down-sloped 20 from that, my understanding, is being left 21 untouched. 22 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Oh, so you 23 mean at the top of the slope, there's a line -- 24 MR. APPEL: It has to be cleared for 25 the construction, so that's why there is

, is being left 21 untouched. 22 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Oh, so you 23 mean at the top of the slope, there's a line -- 24 MR. APPEL: It has to be cleared for 25 the construction, so that's why there is going to be

43 (Pages 166 to 169) Page 166 1 a perimeter around the building to allow 2 construction, and firefighters will be able to 3 traverse around the building, they will just need to 4 drag hose or carry a ladder. It's not like they 5 didn't have access. Like, an urban site, you only 6 have access to one side of the building. This, you 7 will have access to four sides but with a vehicle on 8 two or three sides. 9 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Right, so, 10 just so that I'm clear, if firefighters need to 11 access the rear of the building, they will be able 12 to do so on foot, carrying heavy equipment, and they 13 have enough space to get back there; obviously, 14 response times matter, and that pinch point, you're 15 saying, will be no less than seven feet? 16 MR. APPEL: The pinch -- that pinch 17 point to the ridgeline is seven feet, so those 18 numbers that I was giving you was to that ridge -- 19 was to that line which was established by the -- by 20 the town or one of the consultants that was called 21 the ridgeline. I was giving you those dimensions 22 because it's just an arbitrary line, you know, it's 23 a -- but that's -- that's a line that everything had 24 to be designed around. 25 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: And so that Page 167 1 space back there is still sloped going up toward the 2 top of the ridge? 3 MR. APPEL: It goes up and down. It 4 follows -- because whatever the natural topography, 5 so once we clear the building, it's in the a -- it's 6 not like on the front of the building that's a 7 straight line, the back of the building is going to 8 go up and down and follow the normal -- 9 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Yeah. So 10 that's what I anticipated. I am a little concerned 11 about that. I don't know how to capture that in a 12 condition, I don't know if we can capture that in a 13 condition, but my concern, sir, is that if there is 14 a need for firefighters to access the rear of the 15 building, you have a bottleneck at that corner of 16 Building D, which has been described as seven feet 17 from the building to the ridgeline, we have an 18 uneven surface, we have a very long building, and it 19 looks to me, as a layman -- I'm not a firefighter, 20 never have been; it looks to me like that's going to 21 take a considerable amount of time to get back there 22 safely, set up there safely and then handle whatever 23 the emergency may be. 24 MR. APPEL: So I'm going

it looks to me like that's going to 21 take a considerable amount of time to get back there 22 safely, set up there safely and then handle whatever 23 the emergency may be. 24 MR. APPEL: So I'm going to pose a 25 suggestion in here, and this is to the -- Mr. Page 168 1 Anderson, is can we create alongside the building 2 just to have a smoother transition grade-wise on the 3 ridge side or are we getting into areas that would 4 create disturbances that would cause other issues? 5 And that would be the -- the question of whether, as 6 long as there's adequate space... 7 MR. ANDERSON: The space that's graded 8 behind the building is already graded in a smooth, 9 continuous way. It might change in slope, but the 10 one thing that's relevant here is, if you go back to 11 the section that you had showing where the building 12 was with the trees, you can see you're at the top of 13 the hill. So we built just short of the top of the 14 hill, then there is still the top of the hill which 15 is generally very level and then it starts going 16 back down. Okay? So if you look at the exhibit 17 that Larry will bring up here -- 18 MR. APPEL: I thought I -- 19 MR. ANDERSON: You have it there 20 somewhere. Well, he knew all the numbers. 21 MR. KLEIN: Yeah, but we're talking 22 the other direction. 23 MR. APPEL: Either one is -- 24 MR. ANDERSON: So -- 25 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Go back one. Page 169 1 Go back. That one. 2 MR. KLEIN: Parallel to the back of 3 the building. 4 MR. ANDERSON: Yes, parallel to the 5 back of the building. So if you're talking about 6 firefighters, we have anywhere between seven at one 7 discreet point where you have 30 feet, it's like 30 8 feet of level area. Now, look at the slope of that 9 area immediately behind the building. That's not a 10 steep slope. 11 MR. KLEIN: Right. 12 MR. ANDERSON: Farther to the right is 13 where the steep slope actually occurs. You're at 14 the top of the hill, right to the top where it gets 15 level. You go up over the hill with your car and 16 you get to the top and all of a sudden, you go back 17 down the other side. This is at the top parts. So 18 -- 19 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So -- I fully 20 understand that. My concern is, so this is a 21 hillside, right? 22 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. 23 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: You're not 24 planning on sidewalks, paver or some other firm or 25 smooth surface back there, it is -- it

concern is, so this is a 21 hillside, right? 22 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. 23 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: You're not 24 planning on sidewalks, paver or some other firm or 25 smooth surface back there, it is -- it would be

44 (Pages 170 to 173) Page 170 1 great if it was on a nice hot, sunny day and the 2 ground is great -- 3 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. 4 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: -- and there 5 are no issues, but if it's in the middle of winter 6 and it's been snowing, if it's on a rainy day and 7 it's been rainy and firefighters have to get back 8 there, they're on uneven -- as I understand it, and 9 you could correct me if I'm wrong, they're on uneven 10 ground, they're on a slope, even though it's sloping 11 toward the building, it may not be a steep slope but 12 it is a slope, and it's a long building so they've 13 got to park at one door or the other and then go all 14 the way around the building to get to the back -- 15 MR. ANDERSON: Yeah. 16 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: -- should that 17 happen. That, to me, seems like something we should 18 plan better for. 19 MR. ANDERSON: Okay. I just -- yeah, 20 that's -- it's back to the code issue and how the 21 fire chief, who we're waiting for him, the fire -- 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Anderson -- 23 MR. ANDERSON: I'm sorry. 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 25 MR. ANDERSON: Waiting for the fire Page 171 1 official to come back from vacation before we can 2 speak with him about how we would go about operating 3 here and see if he has any concerns, but as Larry 4 indicated, we are exceeding the code requirement for 5 access to the sides of the building and that's, you 6 know, that's -- you know, that's the paramount thing 7 here, so... But that explains the slope so you get 8 a better picture of the top of the hill. 9 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: No, I 10 understand, I understand that the code is the code 11 as it is now and I know that the code as it is now 12 will govern with regard to this particular project, 13 but if we are aware at this point of a flaw or a 14 concern and not a single tree has been taken down, 15 nothing has been built, if we can address it now, I 16 think we should, and the last thing that I would 17 want, as an elected official and a member of this 18 Planning Board, to have had this conversation in 19 public and five years from now, that exact thing 20 happens and nothing was done. So that is my 21 concern, it is one of several questions, but that is 22 something that I would have to have addressed 23 satisfactorily before I would be comfortable moving 24 forward. 25 Mr. Chair, I don't know how you capture Page 172 1 that or Ms.

tions, but that is 22 something that I would have to have addressed 23 satisfactorily before I would be comfortable moving 24 forward. 25 Mr. Chair, I don't know how you capture Page 172 1 that or Ms. McGovern, I don't know how to capture 2 that but -- 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We're going to wait 4 for -- 5 MR. KLEIN: The fire chief. 6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker. 7 MR. PLOCKER: Yeah, I just want to 8 confirm, and Mr. Anderson alluded to it, a member of 9 our team did attempt to reach the fire chief, he is 10 away on vacation, and we definitely will be having 11 this conversation with him and we will be happy to 12 revisit after we do. 13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, so we will 14 revisit this once we have the information from the 15 fire chief, who will hear the questions that have 16 been asked and will respond to that. 17 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Much obliged. 18 Thank you very much, Mr. Anderson and Mr. Appel. 19 Sorry, I forgot for one second. 20 All right. Accessibility, it seems 21 like you've done a great job making all of the 22 buildings accessible. I have a question about folks 23 that are mobility challenged getting around the site 24 or getting off site, and that question really -- I 25 know that there are some sidewalks, Mr. Anderson Page 173 1 testified to that yesterday and I believe the 2 sidewalks do connect with Warner. Are we FHA or ADA 3 compliant with regard to the slope for those that 4 are in wheelchairs? 5 MR. APPEL: I can only talk about kind 6 of the building and the surrounding of the building 7 -- 8 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: I should have 9 asked that to Mr. Anderson yesterday. I'll come 10 back to him later on, you don't have to get out of 11 your Chair, just don't go anywhere. 12 All right. The COAH units -- and 13 again, I've taken notes through your thing so I'm 14 going to jump around a little bit. The affordable 15 units, it looked to me, and I looked quickly, that 16 most of them, if not all of them, were on the 17 shorter side of the building, in other words, the 18 hallway's not equidistant. 19 MR. APPEL: That is correct. 20 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Okay. And you 21 just gave some testimony regarding square footage. 22 Now, there was a question asked earlier, followed up 23 by our mayor, with regard to the affordable units in 24 comparison to the market-rate units and the original 25 answer provided to Mr. Cardoza was that they would

45 (Pages 174 to 177) Page 174 1 be materially similar, and the mayor introduced a 2 word called "indistinguishable." So are they 3 materially similar or indistinguishable? 4 MR. APPEL: So I would say 5 indistinguishable, like the outside from the door, 6 so from the -- you look at the building and the 7 door, but inside is that the units are a little 8 smaller, the kitchens can be a little bit different. 9 I can't really talk about whether it's going to be 10 the exact same appliances and packages in there, but 11 all of -- all of these were designed to have full 12 heating and cooling systems, their own washer and 13 dryer, closet, storage, all the things -- have the 14 same windows and similar features, so -- but I can't 15 talk about those other items. 16 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So I think 17 with regard to finish, I would like to -- I would 18 like the affordable units to be indistinguishable or 19 materially -- I would like to know if they are 20 indistinguishable or materially similar to the 21 market-rate units. 22 MR. APPEL: You're talking about now 23 with finishes and -- 24 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Yeah, so the 25 last -- and listen, I'm not a -- I don't pretend to Page 175 1 be a professional or expert in this stuff, I'm not, 2 but the last project that we had that incorporated 3 these kind of units, that I was a part of, I do 4 believe -- you guys can correct me if I'm wrong -- 5 that we required them to be the same and the 6 developer actually, at least what I recall off my 7 memory, I think they were the same, I think that was 8 something that we want. 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The terminology we 10 used was "materially similar based on supply chain," 11 so if you couldn't get an appliance A, all the 12 units, whether they were market-rate or affordable, 13 would get appliance B, so you wouldn't distinguish 14 between the different units in those appliances. So 15 you don't have to give everybody the same appliance, 16 but you have to give all the units at that time the 17 same appliance, because that's what we considered 18 materially similar based on the supply chain. 19 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: And if I 20 understand that correctly, and again, I'm going on 21 memory and so thank you for the clarification -- 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So the units could 23 be smaller, the units could have other certain 24 things that one unit may -- that the affordable unit 25

21 memory and so thank you for the clarification -- 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So the units could 23 be smaller, the units could have other certain 24 things that one unit may -- that the affordable unit 25 may not have that the market-rate unit would have, Page 176 1 but the appliances will be materially similar based 2 on supply chain. 3 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: And I think it 4 went to -- to other things as well, not just 5 appliances. We didn't want to have, you know, 6 granite countertops in market-rate units and, you 7 know, something substandard in an affordable unit. 8 MR. APPEL: So this is something I 9 would -- I need to review with ownership and have a 10 clear understanding of those, uh, those items. 11 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Use the 12 microphone, please. 13 MR. APPEL: Oh. I have to review that 14 with ownership because it's something that was not 15 reviewed and discussed prior. 16 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Thank you, Mr. 17 Appel. 18 You showed us a leasing office, in the 19 clubhouse, I believe. 20 MR. APPEL: Yes. 21 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So when the 22 project is done and fully leased up, what will 23 become of the leasing office? 24 MR. APPEL: It remains, so there's a 25 large enough community where there is always going Page 177 1 to be a need for potential renters to look at this, 2 so we find for communities that are larger, this is 3 the right way to do it. 4 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Okay, and then 5 you mentioned windows a moment ago. If you go back, 6 I think it was the first or the second slide, there 7 was an exterior presentation. The next one, I 8 think. That one. 9 So you show some birds in the upper 10 right. 11 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: They come with the 12 site. 13 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: They come with 14 the site? 15 MR. APPEL: That is an artistic 16 expression. 17 MR. ALPER: The birds will be 18 materially similar. 19 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Are they 20 materially similar? Hats off to the -- 21 MR. APPEL: They fly equally over the 22 affordable housing and the market units. 23 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: My hats off to 24 the artist. My question is, you know, they're 25 there, they're a reminder that you are in the middle