July 31, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

46 (Pages 178 to 181) Page 178 1 of woods, this development, and we have -- I've 2 personally experienced it, I'm sure others have, 3 birds flying into windows. Is there any technology 4 on any of these large windows to help prevent or 5 mitigate that risk? 6 MR. APPEL: Usually when you have 7 window shades and stuff like that is that -- my 8 understanding is those are helpful with that, but I 9 don't have -- 10 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So there's no 11 anti-strike technology or... 12 MR. APPEL: I have not looked at that. 13 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Okay. All 14 right, let's go back to the rooftop deck. I think 15 that's on Building D. 16 Yesterday, Mr. Anderson gave some 17 testimony with regard to attempted balloon tests for 18 sight lines, and I think you today gave some 19 testimony stating that -- well, is there a view of 20 New York City from this property? 21 MR. APPEL: So I -- my -- my 22 understanding is toward -- toward New York; I don't 23 know that you will see -- my understanding from what 24 we've seen with the tree line is that upper floor 25 will have some kind of peek-through places, so not Page 179 1 every place is going to give you a straight line, 2 but you will have some pockets where there are 3 thinner and exposure, so that's my understanding and 4 that's what we were designing to accommodate and, 5 um, and take advantage of. 6 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So -- so there 7 is a portion of the building that will be visible 8 above the tree line? 9 MR. APPEL: From where? 10 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Well -- 11 MR. APPEL: Not from those surrounding 12 locations because that exhibit was showing that -- 13 let me go to -- when you look at the actual view, 14 taking advantage of the topography, you see that, 15 even if this was above, you're not going to be able 16 to see -- you can zoom back out, please. There. 17 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Is that 18 Building D? 19 MR. APPEL: That's Building D right 20 there. 21 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Right. 22 MR. APPEL: So you can see that that 23 sight line is through so many hundreds of feet of 24 trees. Now, is there a remote top, like up by the 25 manor, where you may see a little piece of the Page 180 1 building poking up? Possibly, yes. 2 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So that is 3 facing east, is what you're saying. 4 MR. APPEL: This is -- 5 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: To the right 6 is east. 7 MR. APPEL: Right is facing

oking up? Possibly, yes. 2 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So that is 3 facing east, is what you're saying. 4 MR. APPEL: This is -- 5 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: To the right 6 is east. 7 MR. APPEL: Right is facing east, 8 correct. 9 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So, you know, 10 we are on -- that's on second mountain, am I right, 11 or is that first mountain? I know there's two 12 mountains, this is on one, that's at the top of one, 13 right? 14 MR. APPEL: So the other one is going 15 to be South Mountain Reservation is the second 16 mountain, if I'm understanding what you're saying. 17 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Right and it 18 may not be called that but whatever it's called, 19 that's what it is, right? 20 MR. APPEL: Right. 21 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Are you going 22 to be able to see this building? Will it extend 23 above the tree line? Those trees are not -- those 24 are just for -- 25 MR. APPEL: I couldn't tell you from Page 181 1 where exactly you can get that viewpoint, I can just 2 say that the exercise doing these sight studies was 3 to show that the adjoining residents are not at a 4 vantage point to be -- have this -- you know, 5 there's a tremendous amount of distance and 6 topography that, um, that creates privacy and 7 buffering between those homes and the, uh, and the 8 proposed structures. 9 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So my concern 10 with that is not just that you could see it, I don't 11 know that that would be a bad thing, I imagine the 12 building's going to look nice, but it's about light 13 pollution and you talked about the downward-facing 14 lights in the decks, but on Building D, what is the 15 lighting on the deck? 16 MR. APPEL: The testimony I gave 17 earlier is that we were proposing that to be 18 predominantly bollard type lighting. 19 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Can you -- 20 what is bollard? 21 MR. APPEL: Bollard type lighting is 22 where you have low-level lighting so that instead of 23 a light fixture up high shining down, it's a low 24 light that broadcasts to the side, so we're looking 25 at low lights in walls, planters and bollards rather

47 (Pages 182 to 185) Page 182 1 than highlighting. 2 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Got it. 3 MR. APPEL: And that was in regard 4 just to being more sensitive to that. 5 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: All right. 6 Now, have you considered, in your public spaces, 7 where or how many garbage cans you're going to have, 8 around the clubhouse, the dog kennel, the dog park? 9 MR. APPEL: Have not gotten into that 10 level of detail. 11 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: But there will 12 be public trash cans in those public areas? 13 MR. APPEL: I think that's a wonderful 14 idea and I think that we should include some of 15 these, and one of the things we did not, uh, we did 16 not think through, we located bike racks below the 17 buildings but not at the clubhouse and I think 18 people should be encouraged to bike to the 19 clubhouse. 20 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: On that note, 21 are you going to have bike lanes? 22 MR. APPEL: Um... 23 MR. ANDERSON: No. 24 MR. APPEL: I don't believe there was 25 anything proposed as a bike lane. Page 183 1 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Is the street 2 wide enough to incorporate a bike lane? 3 MR. APPEL: Not currently. 4 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: All right, and 5 then my last question, back to the COAH units. In 6 the affordable units, the balconies -- you can go to 7 the slide, whichever slide that was. In the COAH 8 units, the balcony is accessed only through 9 bedrooms. In the market-rate units, the balcony is 10 accessed through the living rooms. What is the 11 thinking behind that? 12 MR. APPEL: I'm not sure if that's the 13 case for everything. 14 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Okay. 15 MR. APPEL: Give me a moment, please. 16 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Sure. 17 (Witness looks through documents.) 18 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So it's slide 19 -- 20 MR. APPEL: So I'm looking at PB-4 -- 21 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: 7. 22 MR. APPEL: -- .7 -- 23 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Yes. 24 MR. APPEL: -- so -- so 4.7 -- 25 MR. AFRAN: Can the lights be dimmed Page 184 1 for a couple minutes? It's hard to see. 2 MR. APPEL: So living room, so the 3 balconies off the bedroom and this is -- on the one- 4 bedroom, it's off the bedroom -- 5 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Right. 6 MR. APPEL: -- and that was to allow 7 the living room to be larger. That was why we had 8 done that, we thought it was a better tradeoff. 9 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Okay. 10 MR. APPEL: And then on the two- 11 bedroom COAH, it is off the living

living room to be larger. That was why we had 8 done that, we thought it was a better tradeoff. 9 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Okay. 10 MR. APPEL: And then on the two- 11 bedroom COAH, it is off the living room -- 12 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Living room, 13 right. 14 MR. APPEL: -- and on the three- 15 bedroom COAH, it's also off the living room, so -- 16 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So my notes 17 weren't clear, but on the -- 18 MR. APPEL: But you're correct on -- 19 on that one. 20 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: And so the 21 thinking was to give a larger living room. 22 MR. APPEL: That was why we had placed 23 it over there, because we could mirror the unit so 24 we keep the balcony in the same place, but now 25 you're going to have a smaller living room and we Page 185 1 thought that was more valuable for the residents. 2 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: That's a 3 choice, I just wanted to understand the thinking 4 behind it. 5 I will say I am a little disappointed 6 with the size -- the square footage difference 7 between the affordable and the market-rate units. 8 That is disappointing. What we -- what I would like 9 to see, I won't speak for anyone else, are the 10 affordable units, I won't use the word 11 "indistinguishable," that's already been refuted and 12 pushed back against, but substantially or were 13 substantially similar to the market-rate units. The 14 lower-end, you know, you're looking at about a 20 15 percent difference between an affordable unit and a 16 market-rate unit, with the affordable unit being 17 much smaller. You know, it's not as bad in the 18 two-bedroom, but it is a big difference in a three- 19 bedroom. 20 MR. APPEL: So what you have to look 21 at in here is -- is that, on the short side of the 22 building, we have both market and affordable units, 23 so you have a one-bedroom over here, and this has to 24 be a two -- so here's a one-bedroom COAH and a 25 one-bedroom market. You can see -- you shouldn't

48 (Pages 186 to 189) Page 186 1 compare the one-bedroom COAH to the one-bedroom-plus 2 den across the hall that there's a big difference, 3 but you can see the one-bedroom and the one-bedroom 4 COAH are really quite similar size-wise, it's just 5 that there happen to be other larger one-bedrooms 6 available also. So there are small one-bedroom 7 market units also. 8 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Smaller, 9 correct. The numbers you gave were 800 to 900 10 square feet. I don't know what that block is that's 11 missing, if it's a one-bedroom or two-bedroom COAH. 12 MR. APPEL: Those are placeholders for 13 both storage room as well as mechanical fobs. 14 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Yeah, I mean, 15 so, not to belabor the point, however we got here, 16 you know, 738, on average, versus 850 on average, 17 right? 800 to 900. 1150 -- 18 MR. APPEL: But you're comparing 19 larger one-bedrooms and smaller one-bedrooms, so -- 20 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: No, what I'm 21 comparing are averages. If you're -- you're saying 22 the affordable average was 738, or the affordable 23 was 738; the average of the market-rate one-bedroom 24 is 800 to 900 -- I mean the range is 800 to 900, the 25 average would be 850, just looking at that -- at Page 187 1 that number -- at those two numbers. So you're 2 looking at 850 square feet versus 738, it's 112 3 square feet difference. That's almost a 20 percent 4 difference in size. That's substantial to me. Now, 5 it's not as big of a difference on the two-bedroom. 6 Two-bedroom is 1150 on average, market rate is 1200, 7 1300 square feet. Just say 1250. It's 150 -- it's 8 a hundred-square-foot difference, it's not a 9 meaningful difference, it's less than 10 percent. 10 But when you go to the three-bedroom, it is -- it is 11 now a large percentage. 1220 is the number you 12 gave, 1690 to 1850 is the range, which would put you 13 at about 1720. It's a 500-square-foot difference, 14 which is almost a -- it's about a 40 percent 15 difference. 16 MR. APPEL: Right, and the reason 17 being is that if you pan to the side, either to the 18 left -- 19 MR. FAGAN: Oh, I'm sorry. 20 MR. APPEL: -- or to the right -- 21 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Into the 22 microphone. 23 MR. APPEL: Oh, sorry. So all of the 24 market three-bedroom, the only place we're putting 25 them are these end caps, so they were just done to Page 188 1 stack these large units and we've -- we've

23 MR. APPEL: Oh, sorry. So all of the 24 market three-bedroom, the only place we're putting 25 them are these end caps, so they were just done to Page 188 1 stack these large units and we've -- we've actually 2 set back these units so that the units on the -- on 3 the lower floors are larger, so if you can look at a 4 -- I'm going to go to an upper floor, you can see 5 how -- you see here's the profile of the unit below. 6 They're set back. So that was to get an 7 architectural expression, not -- you know, so you 8 have some of these three-bedrooms that are larger, 9 but then they get smaller to accommodate, you know, 10 the stepping of the building. 11 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Well, even if 12 you use the smallest three-bedroom, you're looking 13 at 1690 square feet versus 1220 -- 14 MR. APPEL: Um-hum. 15 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: -- which is a 16 470-square-foot difference, which is still about 30 17 percent. 18 MR. APPEL: So we will -- we will look 19 at the -- at the COAH -- COAH unit sizes. 20 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Right, and you 21 know, that is just a philosophical approach to how 22 we treat renters who would fall into that affordable 23 category and making it as difficult as possible to 24 distinguish between an affordable unit and a 25 market-rate unit, and it's not just about the door, Page 189 1 because with a three-bedroom in particular, we would 2 expect there to be children, and what I would hate 3 to see is children going from one unit to another 4 and being able to distinguish that this is the 5 affordable unit, which, you know, could expose to 6 that type of bullying or kids can be cruel 7 sometimes. So that's the thinking, that's the 8 philosophy, and if we can address it beforehand, I 9 would appreciate it. 10 Those are my questions and my thoughts 11 and that does it for me, Mr. Chair. 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, Council 13 President. I'd like to go back to Building D. Mr. 14 Anderson couldn't tell us yesterday exactly how far 15 the back side of the building is from the ridgeline. 16 Can you tell us? 17 MR. APPEL: We already -- I thought I 18 already did. 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Well, there's some 20 outpocketings from the back of Building D. I want 21 to know, from those outpocketings, if we put up the 22 picture again, you can look at that, where people 23 can walk out from the back side of the building. 24 That's what it looked like. 25

I want 21 to know, from those outpocketings, if we put up the 22 picture again, you can look at that, where people 23 can walk out from the back side of the building. 24 That's what it looked like. 25 MR. APPEL: So, coming from the top of

49 (Pages 190 to 193) Page 190 1 the building, so we've scaled off a couple of 2 dimensions along -- from the top corner of the 3 building, so I'm kind of starting back over -- 4 please don't zoom in. 5 MR. FAGAN: Sorry. 6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Well, on the first 7 floor where you can't walk out. You have it on one 8 of the diagrams. 9 MR. APPEL: Okay, so let me go back to 10 here. So we can come from this corner starting over 11 here, about 25 feet to the ridge, then it's going to 12 -- as you come around the side of the building, it 13 will go up to about 85 feet, then to about 66 feet, 14 and then to about 24 feet. 15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So when you come 16 right over here, is that a walk-out? 17 MR. APPEL: About 24 feet to the 18 ridge. 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Is that a path for 20 people to walk out and sit on or -- 21 MR. APPEL: Can you -- 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: -- what is it? 23 MR. APPEL: -- zoom in over there? 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yeah. 25 MR. APPEL: We created a placeholder. Page 191 1 Can you zoom in on this area here (indicating)? 2 So we've created an outdoor space 3 behind the gym over here, so -- 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: And how far is that 5 from the ridgeline? 6 MR. APPEL: If this is about 20 feet 7 deep, you are probably about maybe anywhere between 8 four and six feet from the ridgeline. 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. 10 MR. AFRAN: What was that last number? 11 I'm sorry. 12 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: Four and six 13 feet. 14 MR. APPEL: And then as you continue 15 around the building, it goes back up to about 43 16 feet and then at this corner, that's the tightest 17 pinch point, which is about seven feet to the ridge 18 and then opens up to 32 and about 40 feet over here 19 (indicating). And that's a product of the building 20 moves and the ridgeline is not a straight line, it's 21 all -- 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Sure. 23 MR. APPEL: -- carved all over the 24 place. 25 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Now, is there going Page 192 1 to be pavement back there, trees, because that's the 2 area where, we heard testimony, firefighters are 3 going to drag a hose or medics may drag a stretcher. 4 MR. APPEL: I don't believe there's 5 landscaping along the base of the building at the 6 rear. 7 MR. ANDERSON: Not at this time. 8 MR. APPEL: Yeah. So I think it's -- 9 it's open. 10 MR. KLEIN: The green wall is in 11 spots. Go -- go to the back of the building 12 elevation again. That's what we're talking

ON: Not at this time. 8 MR. APPEL: Yeah. So I think it's -- 9 it's open. 10 MR. KLEIN: The green wall is in 11 spots. Go -- go to the back of the building 12 elevation again. That's what we're talking about, 13 right? 14 MR. APPEL: No, we were not looking at 15 this building. 16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: They didn't talk 17 about this part of the building. They talked about 18 louvers in front of the building for the garage. 19 MR. KLEIN: Oh, the one where it 20 undulates down, that's not D, that's not the back of 21 D? 22 MR. APPEL: No, this was -- this was 23 -- this was -- 24 MR. KLEIN: That's the back of D 25 there? No. Page 193 1 MR. APPEL: This is the building that 2 we were -- 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That's the front of 4 the building, facing the driveway. 5 MR. APPEL: This is -- 6 MR. KLEIN: That gym patio doesn't 7 face the driveway, that faces the ridge. 8 MR. APPEL: This is Building A. 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm talking about 10 Building B. Where you're getting close to the 11 ridgeline is a gym patio and I asked how far was 12 that from the ridgeline, it's four feet. 13 MR. KLEIN: It's less because it's 14 like a 30-foot-deep patio -- 15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Right. 16 MR. KLEIN: -- so it's right up to the 17 edge. And that's -- so where is it? So it's down 18 here on the left? No, that's the front. 19 MR. APPEL: This is the -- 20 MR. KLEIN: This is the lobby, right? 21 MR. APPEL: It is -- oop. East side. 22 MR. KLEIN: That's east side, okay. 23 MR. APPEL: Yup. 24 MR. KLEIN: So then down here -- yup, 25 down there, that's the patio?

50 (Pages 194 to 197) Page 194 1 MR. APPEL: Correct, that's the patio 2 right here (indicating). Gym beyond. This is not 3 the elevation that we were putting the green wall 4 on. 5 MR. KLEIN: Okay. 6 MR. ALPER: And is the term 7 "ridgeline" being used to mean the actual crest of 8 the hill or the "Do not build past this line" line? 9 MR. APPEL: Whenever we use the term 10 "ridgeline," it's that line that was established by 11 the town. 12 MR. ALPER: That's what I thought. Do 13 we know the distance to the actual top of the hill? 14 MR. APPEL: I don't -- I don't -- I 15 couldn't correlate, like, where the topo lines -- 16 MR. ALPER: Okay. 17 MR. APPEL: -- relate to that. 18 MR. ALPER: But it's not the case that 19 we're six feet from the top of the hill at any 20 point. 21 MR. APPEL: No, the only thing that I 22 can tell you with -- like, this is taken from all of 23 the actual grades, when we did these sections, so 24 you can kind of see how, you know, where all of this 25 kind of, you know, you have this kind of flat spot Page 195 1 and it doesn't get really steep till you're all the 2 way back over here. 3 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: It's pretty 4 steep at the top. 5 MR. KLEIN: It depends where you take 6 the slice. 7 MR. APPEL: Correct. 8 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: You're under 9 oath. 10 MR. ALPER: It would be useful to know 11 -- it would be useful to know the actual closest 12 distance to the point where it becomes a problem if 13 it's the top of the hill -- probably both, but if 14 it's the top of the hill and where the slope gets 15 beyond a certain percentage of slope. It's 16 important to know how far it is from the actual line 17 of the plants too. That six feet number's not 18 unimportant, but I would want to know how many feet 19 we are from the top and from -- at whatever point 20 the slope becomes technically steeper. 21 MR. ANDERSON: May I? 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Anderson. 23 MR. ANDERSON: Thank you. 24 So at that pinch point where it's seven 25 feet, there -- your slope ordinance, which does Page 196 1 apply -- 2 MR. KLEIN: Get closer to the mic. 3 MR. ANDERSON: I'm trying. 4 MR. ALPER: I understand it doesn't. 5 (Multiple speakers at once) 6 MR. ALPER: I understand it doesn't 7 apply, but I'd like it -- 8 MR. ANDERSON: So -- 9 MR. ALPER: -- to be used -- 10 MR. ANDERSON: So -- 11 MR. ALPER: -- as an existing 12 definition. 13 MR. ANDERSON: So your