August 14, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

6 (Pages 18 to 21)6 (Pages 18 to 21) Page 18 1 MR. KLEIN: Right. And that's the 2 one, upper and middle, that's where the garage door 3 is -- 4 MR. APPEL: Right. 5 MR. KLEIN: -- so instead of having 6 ramps inside the garage, you can come out that level 7 and the upper level comes out the other side. 8 MR. APPEL: That's correct. 9 MR. KLEIN: Okay. 10 Mr. Haizel, I hate to put you on the 11 spot, but do you know what the intent of covering 50 12 percent of the -- and you're calling it "the 13 foundation" but it's really the first floor. 14 MR. HAIZEL: Yeah, in terms of the 15 intent, I was thinking the same thing, as a matter 16 of fact. It's not as striking looking at it at this 17 scale, but when you do get up -- close-ups of the 18 elevations you had, it is a little more striking. 19 One question I have that you may have 20 gone over at the last meeting, the green walls, as 21 you were referring to them, are those going to be 22 artificial synthetic or are they actual growing -- 23 MR. APPEL: We would advocate that 24 that would be true, you know, natural plantings, not 25 artificial. Page 20 1 some homes; we were trying to design basically four 2 elevations that all had the same level of 3 architectural treatment and materials, et cetera. 4 MR. HAIZEL: And I would expect that, 5 based on the way that the height of the building is 6 measured, that you take it from the average grade, 7 this -- if I was standing up at the lowest point on 8 this elevation, the lowest point of where the... 9 (Whereupon the screen containing the plan 10 goes blank and then it is restored.) 11 MR. APPEL: I'm sorry. 12 So the way height is measured per the 13 ordinance is we have a height metrics -- metric from 14 the first floor upward in here -- 15 MR. HAIZEL: Right. 16 MR. APPEL: -- so... 17 MR. HAIZEL: So, technically, if I was 18 standing up, this -- using this elevation that you 19 have here and I was looking up, my experience 20 looking from the grade level to the top of the 21 building would be quite different if I were in that 22 area where it goes down -- 23 MR. APPEL: Yes. 24 MR. HAIZEL: -- the lower -- 25 MR. APPEL: Yes. Absolutely. Page 19 1 MR. HAIZEL: And this is something 2 that would grow -- be green year round? 3 MR. APPEL: We'd be looking for 4 something, yes -- 5 MR. HAIZEL: Okay. 6 MR. APPEL: -- that would be green. 7 MR. HAIZEL: But getting back to the 8

omething 2 that would grow -- be green year round? 3 MR. APPEL: We'd be looking for 4 something, yes -- 5 MR. HAIZEL: Okay. 6 MR. APPEL: -- that would be green. 7 MR. HAIZEL: But getting back to the 8 question you asked, I'm not sure exactly why, I 9 think that, you know, it does look a little more 10 striking as you are closer to it because you're not 11 actually looking at the building yet, you're sort of 12 looking at that basement, if you want, level -- 13 MR. APPEL: Yeah. 14 MR. HAIZEL: -- you know, on this 15 perspective, it's pretty -- it's pretty noticeable. 16 MR. APPEL: And we also looked at 17 architecturally, we cut back this portion of the 18 roof, we did a cut-back over here (indicating) so 19 that we tried to soften the height of the building 20 at this area as well, so we looked to incorporate as 21 -- you know, and again, this is a facade that does 22 not face toward any of the neighbors, this faces 23 toward the clubhouse, but notwithstanding, we were 24 trying to -- remember, this project was not designed 25 with a front elevation and a rear elevation like Page 21 1 MR. HAIZEL: -- (indiscernible). 2 MR. APPEL: You're correct. 3 MR. KLEIN: Right, but you said you've 4 shortened the building. 5 MR. APPEL: Well -- 6 MR. KLEIN: If you're standing that 7 close to the building, you won't see it. 8 MR. APPEL: We wedding-caked -- 9 MR. KLEIN: Right. 10 MR. APPEL: -- this portion of the 11 building. Let me make sure we're looking at the 12 right -- over here. We wedding-caked this portion 13 of the building -- 14 MR. KLEIN: Right. 15 MR. APPEL: -- so this building comes 16 up and then cuts back over here (indicating) -- 17 MR. KLEIN: Right. 18 MR. APPEL: -- so as you're looking 19 down -- as you're close to the building, you're 20 going to be looking at this as a cornice line -- 21 MR. KLEIN: Right. 22 MR. APPEL: -- as opposed to this top 23 portion because you're -- as you get back farther 24 and farther, then this will start coming into view. 25 MR. KLEIN: And to the left, you're

7 (Pages 22 to 25)7 (Pages 22 to 25) Page 22 1 looking at the full height of the building. 2 MR. APPEL: That's correct. And to 3 the right. But over here, grade starts ticking back 4 -- back upwards. 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Council President 6 Rutherford. 7 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Thank you, 8 Chairman. I'm not sure that I understood the answer 9 to the question, so either Mr. Hess or Mr. Haizel, 10 what is the purpose for having the code this way in 11 the first place? Is it a safety issue? Is it a 12 stability issue; what is this, you know, this 13 foundation exposure percentage; why is that the 14 recommendation in the first place? And then -- and 15 I have a couple follow-ups. 16 MR. HAIZEL: My sense of it is the 17 area that's being affected by this is the parking 18 floor, the parking garage, and the intent, in my 19 opinion, of that would be so that there was a very 20 limited amount of that part of the building you see, 21 which is why I asked the question about the height. 22 If I were standing up at the bottom of that lowest 23 point, I would see one level of parking, another 24 level of parking, then the entire building, which is 25 a much different experience rather than if you were Page 24 1 50 percent of the first floor? It's a hundred 2 percent of the first floor. Right? It looks like 3 -- 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Let him calculate -- 5 MR. KLEIN: Yeah. 6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: -- and then he'll 7 answer your question. 8 MR. APPEL: I believe that will be -- 9 I believe from that low point in here to the rooftop 10 will be 67 feet. 11 UNIDENTIFIED VOICE: Just from the 12 blue line, you're asking, right? 13 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: From the blue. 14 MR. APPEL: So I'm going to basically, 15 not from the -- not from the blue but from the 16 bottom where grade is all the way up to the top of 17 the roof. Is that what you're asking? 18 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So that wasn't 19 what I was asking but that is a follow-up question 20 because that gets to the actual height of the 21 building as experienced from people walking at that 22 level, but what I wanted to know, and this is a 23 different way of asking the same question Mr. Klein 24 asked. I wanted to know what the height is from 25 where the grade is on this drawing to where it Page 23 1 standing at grade level, maybe at one level of 2 garage, and then the building. 3 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Okay. 4 MR. HAIZEL: So I

ht is from 25 where the grade is on this drawing to where it Page 23 1 standing at grade level, maybe at one level of 2 garage, and then the building. 3 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Okay. 4 MR. HAIZEL: So I think it's trying to 5 avoid that sense of being larger than it is type of 6 thing. That's -- that's -- that's my sense of the 7 intent of it. 8 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Got it. So 9 following up on that, do we know what the height is 10 from the lowest point where you are seeking this 11 variance to where the grade would be? So in this 12 particular -- the top drawing that you have, that's 13 Building C, elevation south. From the lowest point 14 in that dip to where grade should be, according to 15 code, do we know what that height is? 16 MR. APPEL: Bear with me one moment 17 because I want to -- rather than -- it'll be easier 18 for me to look at it on my computer, if I can zoom 19 in. 20 MR. KLEIN: So say again, that blue 21 line represents -- 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Wait. 23 MR. KLEIN: I'm sorry. 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Klein. 25 MR. KLEIN: That blue line represents Page 25 1 should be, which I think is the blue line. 2 MR. APPEL: Correct. That -- that is 3 going to be closer to 67 minus 12, so 55. 4 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So 12 is the 5 number I was looking for. 6 MR. APPEL: And by the way, your 7 height is 75 feet permitted, so all these heights 8 are below, you know, we're talking about heights, 9 but all of these are below the height and the height 10 is permitted to be measured from the first 11 residential floor upward. So even if we take -- and 12 we took that height measurement down to that lower 13 point, we're still within the ordinance. 14 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So from the 15 bottom -- the lowest point to the top is 67 feet and 16 you're allowed to go 75. 17 (Whereupon Mayor McCartney joined the 18 meeting.) 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Hang on. Jamilet, 20 let the record show that Mayor McCartney joined the 21 Board. All right, go ahead, Mr. Appel. 22 (Inaudible discussion) 23 MR. KLEIN: Yeah, so can I -- 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Klein. 25 MR. KLEIN: To me, I thought I would

8 (Pages 26 to 29)8 (Pages 26 to 29) Page 26 1 see something that goes halfway through the first 2 floor -- 3 MR. APPEL: Well, so -- 4 MR. KLEIN: -- 50 percent. 5 MR. APPEL: So what you're not seeing 6 is that -- so this whole portion of the building is 7 completely buried to the first floor, so basically, 8 if you're going around the whole perimeter, if one 9 side is fully buried, the other side can be fully 10 exposed to get that 50 percent -- 11 MR. KLEIN: Right. 12 MR. APPEL: -- and that's sort of the 13 balancing act that we were -- we were doing in here. 14 So the issue is one side's raised high but we can't 15 go higher or it'll cover the resident windows -- 16 MR. KLEIN: Right. 17 MR. APPEL: -- and the unit windows -- 18 MR. KLEIN: Right. 19 MR. APPEL: -- so we can't raise grade 20 anymore, you know, at this side, it's going to 21 impact windows. 22 MR. KLEIN: Right. 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Council President. 24 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: That's it, Mr. 25 Chair. Page 28 1 consequential. 2 MR. PLOCKER: And just for the record, 3 the section of the zoning ordinance that Mr. Appel 4 is referring to is 25-19E(8)(a). 5 MR. KLEIN: So -- one more. So 6 between Mr. Haizel and Mr. Hess -- 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Klein. 8 MR. KLEIN: -- which one of you 9 calculated the percentage that they are not below 10 grade or buried or whatever the -- non-exposed or 11 exposed? 12 MR. HAIZEL: This is (indiscernible) I 13 have with it -- 14 MR. KLEIN: Okay. 15 MR. HAIZEL: -- because my reading 16 with it originally was it was 50 percent of that 17 height. 18 MR. KLEIN: Of the first floor. 19 MR. HAIZEL: Of the -- of that -- 20 MR. KLEIN: Well, the whole foundation 21 basically. 22 MR. HAIZEL: Yes. 23 MR. KLEIN: Okay, all right. 24 MR. HAIZEL: But it, you know, it 25 looks as though now it's the -- the area of the Page 27 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Appel, in your 2 opinion, what is the ordinance for? Is it counting 3 stories? 4 MR. APPEL: Well, I believe the 5 ordinance -- I don't have this in front of me right 6 now but my understanding is height is measured from 7 the first floor, basically the residential first 8 floor, not the parking side of the building, so -- 9 and -- so we've included those measurements for the 10 building, we're considerably below, and then we're 11 conforming with all other heights. Even if we took 12 worst-case scenarios down to these other grade lines 13

cluded those measurements for the 10 building, we're considerably below, and then we're 11 conforming with all other heights. Even if we took 12 worst-case scenarios down to these other grade lines 13 and things like that, but there was a metric, and I 14 think the metric was in there to not count this -- 15 the -- basically the podium or the garage level for, 16 um, for height; they were providing some rules so 17 that the entire building wouldn't be out of grade, 18 but even if we were including the full height of the 19 building to the low point, we're conforming, so it's 20 -- it's a metric that sort of was there to protect 21 you from doing a 75-foot building and then having 22 the exposed or have a shorter building so that 23 exposure sort of is kind of, um -- 24 MS. McGOVERN: Inconsequential. 25 MR. APPEL: -- you know, it's not Page 29 1 building itself, looking at the building, not just 2 ceiling height. 3 MR. KLEIN: So you can average it. 4 MR. HAIZEL: You can average it. 5 MR. KLEIN: Yeah, okay. 6 MR. APPEL: Which is -- which is 7 exactly the calculations that we had done. We went 8 around the building, we calculated it, we realized 9 that we were over this 50 percent metric and -- but 10 we were acceptable height-wise, and then we went 11 back looking "Okay, how do we fix it," and the fixes 12 were not good because they included retaining walls 13 and awkward grading concerns and additional 14 disturbance and we felt that this was a far better 15 way to address that metric. 16 MS. McGOVERN: What percentage over is 17 it? 18 MR. APPEL: Well, I think Mr. Anderson 19 had testified on the numbers in here. Building D is 20 54.8, so you're just a minor amount over; BC is 21 69.1; Building B is 67.4 and Building A is 76.5. 22 Now, also just to note, some of these where the 23 grade drops down is not open and visible. Some 24 areas are. I chose to pick out and highlight what I 25 considered the worst case, and that's why we did the

9 (Pages 30 to 33)9 (Pages 30 to 33) Page 30 1 color -- the partial colored rendering at that 2 position. 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Guarino, do you 4 have any questions? 5 VICE-CHAIRMAN GUARINO: Not at this 6 time, Mr. Chairman. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. (pause) Alper. 8 I couldn't spit it out, I got stuck. 9 MR. ALPER: I think back on night 1, I 10 think I had asked Mr. Anderson about the 50 percent 11 foundation. My concern at the time was really if it 12 were -- if there were a technical reason from a 13 safety perspective, if it was about weathering or 14 ice or something being -- the building being exposed 15 versus aesthetics, and I think the gist of your 16 answer was aesthetics? 17 MR. HAIZEL: Yes. I'm sorry. Yes. 18 Yes. And again, I think unless you really 19 experience looking at a building and looking at the 20 first two floors of a building -- 21 MR. ALPER: Um-hum. 22 MR. HAIZEL: -- its parking, it's a 23 different experience, it is. 24 MR. ALPER: Right. But Mr. Anderson, 25 if you could just nod if I have it right. It was -- Page 32 1 MR. DRUCE: Yes, my name is Howard 2 Druce and I live on Barbara Avenue, which is 3 downstream from Howell Drive. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Could I trouble you 5 to spell your last name for the record, please? 6 MR. DRUCE: D-R-U-C-E. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 8 MR. DRUCE: 15 Barbara Avenue. I have 9 two questions for the architect. The first question 10 relates -- well, they all relate to Building D 11 because that is what faces Howell Drive. The 12 rendering that you showed on the first time show the 13 front facing. I would like to ask you about the 14 rear aspect of Building D, which is what the 15 residents of Howell Drive are going to be looking 16 at, a 75-foot building in front of them. 17 Could you tell us, please, if there are 18 going to be the same facings as there are to the 19 front of the building, if there are going to be any 20 utility areas at the rear, such as for HVAC or for 21 trash or other installations that usually you see at 22 the rear of a building but you don't see on a front 23 facing? 24 MR. APPEL: I -- there are a bunch of 25 questions in there. I'll try and I will hopefully Page 31 1 it was -- between (indiscernible word) and 2 aesthetics, it was an aesthetic concern. Let the 3 record show he nodded, rather than having... 4 My only other question on tonight's -- 5 on the living green wall,

between (indiscernible word) and 2 aesthetics, it was an aesthetic concern. Let the 3 record show he nodded, rather than having... 4 My only other question on tonight's -- 5 on the living green wall, would the applicant be 6 amenable to a condition that that be maintained in 7 perpetuity, that it always be green, that it 8 wouldn't end up being dead in the winter, that sort 9 of thing? 10 MR. PLOCKER: That would be acceptable 11 to the applicant. 12 MR. ALPER: That's all I've got for 13 that. Thank you. 14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Wilkes? No 15 questions. Mr. Cardoza? 16 MR. CARDOZA: None at this time, Mr. 17 Chairman. 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, I'll go back. 19 Mayor McCartney. Thank you. Mr. Hess? I have no 20 questions. Mr. Haizel? 21 MR. HAIZEL: No. 22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Do any members of 23 the public have any questions? Sir, you're up 24 first. State your name and spell your last name for 25 the record, please. Page 33 1 hit all of those, if I can go back to my exhibit. 2 So this drawing, I'm going to go to -- 3 I'm going to switch to -- these are the D 4 elevations. So -- I'm looking over here. So we 5 have -- 4 is one of the elevations that is facing 6 toward Howell and the other is the rear. So let's 7 look to -- we're -- we're going to be looking -- 8 let's first look at the north-facing Building D-2 9 elevation. So this is what you're -- what you're 10 looking at in here. So you were mentioning the 75 11 feet in height. 75 feet is the ordinance limit, 12 that's not the height of the building. So the 13 height of the building each face an exposure, so 14 this building, per the ordinance, is 47 feet 6 15 inches, but if you measured it onto grade, it's 16 going to be another 12 feet or so to that 17 approximate grade line. So you're considerably 18 lower than that 75. 19 Now, I'm going to -- so what you're 20 looking at on the building is this building, not 21 only does it present well, just like all the 22 architectural treatment around the front of the 23 building, but the building is wedding-caked, so if 24 you look at the side elevation in here, the building 25 goes up. You have one, two floors and then it cuts

10 (Pages 34 to 37)10 (Pages 34 to 37) Page 34 1 back a floor and then it cuts back more. The 2 building's wedding-caked as it faces in that 3 direction, and that was done to soften all of these 4 edges architecturally. Why? We think it looks 5 good. It also created some outdoor space for 6 residents but it was mostly to what we call 7 "de-mass" the edges of the building. 8 Now, the other piece to look at in here 9 would be the -- along the east side over here and 10 this is what you will see. So the building presents 11 itself in two separate pieces separated by the 12 entry, so there's actually a D1 and a D2, and the 13 buildings -- so it breaks up into two pieces but -- 14 if you can pull back, please. Great. And what you 15 will end up seeing is this portion of the building 16 and as you can -- as you can see, there are some 17 cut-backs that provide some relief. This face of 18 the building has a very similar feel, albeit it 19 doesn't have the front entry but it has a very 20 similar feel. Now, also, this portion of the 21 building, grade is up quite high over here. 22 (Document is scrolled.) 23 MR. APPEL: Right there. This portion 24 of the building is at that corner closest to Howell, 25 is -- grade is up quite high over here as well. Page 36 1 MR. APPEL: Right. There are no magic 2 pack or those type of HVAC units that would be 3 through wall or seen on the facade. They're 4 internal furnaces very similar to what people have 5 in their homes. It's called a split system. The 6 condensing units that I discussed during my 7 testimony, those are the areas on the roof where 8 those condensing units would be situated. There may 9 be one or two small condensing units on the ground, 10 but very limited. 11 MAYOR McCARTNEY: Thank you. Thank 12 you. 13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, sir, go right 14 ahead, state your name and spell your last name, 15 please, for the record. 16 MR. MISARTI: Okay. My name is Victor 17 miss, M-I-S-A-R-T-I, and I have a few questions 18 about the heights and specifically you just 19 mentioned the air-conditioning condensers that are 20 up on the roof. You show them on the roof plan and 21 I was just wondering, you don't show them at all on 22 the elevations. Does that affect the height 23 restriction? 24 MR. APPEL: That's a great question. 25 The reason why you don't see them on the elevation Page 35 1 MS. McGOVERN: (Audio distortion) 2

22 the elevations. Does that affect the height 23 restriction? 24 MR. APPEL: That's a great question. 25 The reason why you don't see them on the elevation Page 35 1 MS. McGOVERN: (Audio distortion) 2 about utilities, where they would be. 3 MR. DRUCE: My second question, again, 4 I understand there are other things that you didn't 5 answer that could be on the record. 6 You talked about deer fencing, but I 7 did not hear anything about perimeter fencing. 8 Could you share with us if there will be perimeter 9 fencing around the property and especially facing 10 Howell Drive? 11 MR. APPEL: I -- I think that's a site 12 -- I think that's a site question, not an 13 architectural question. I don't believe that there 14 is perimeter fencing, that I recall, on there, but 15 it's really a site question. 16 MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC: Thank you. 17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Hang on. Mayor 18 McCartney. 19 MAYOR McCARTNEY: So Mr. Appel, part 20 -- thank you, Chairman. Part of that question was 21 asking about utilities as well, and are those all on 22 the rooftop so nothing is visible on the rear of the 23 building? 24 MR. APPEL: So -- 25 MAYOR McCARTNEY: (Inaudible) Page 37 1 is because they're all concealed. 2 MR. MISARTI: Oh. Behind the parapet? 3 MR. APPEL: You don't see them behind 4 parapet walls or screening so they're -- none of 5 them are visible. 6 MR. MISARTI: I see, good. Okay, and 7 you pointed out there were rooftop patios and they 8 have -- some of those have, like, decorative roofs 9 or something on it. Those -- are those shown? I 10 think so, right? 11 MR. APPEL: Excuse me, are they what? 12 MR. MISARTI: Are they shown on the 13 elevations? 14 MR. APPEL: You can -- you can see 15 those on the elevations, yes. 16 MR. MISARTI: Yes, I think so. Okay, 17 good. 18 The other thing I'm kind of surprised, 19 like, you say it's a four-story building, but then 20 you've got 50 percent more height, you've got two 21 more stories of parking, and that does not affect 22 the height, like, it fits within the height? 23 MR. APPEL: Well, there's -- there's 24 -- yes, they're all conforming with the height, 25 that's the first question, but more importantly is