August 14, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

11 (Pages 38 to 41)11 (Pages 38 to 41) Page 38 1 that the -- all of the buildings have one story of 2 parking below, it's called a podium, the parking is 3 tucked under. There are a lot of benefits for this. 4 It hides a lot of the parking that otherwise would 5 have been creating a lot more disturbance on the 6 property. In a couple of locations, due to a lot of 7 constraints, we have tucked in, on Building C, a 8 very small area to -- to provide some overflow 9 parking as well as storage for the clubhouse, so 10 only a small portion of Building C has -- has two 11 levels of parking. Building A does not, Building B 12 does not, Building C has a small area, and Building 13 D, less than half of the building has a -- has an 14 additional story of parking, and that was -- there 15 was limited area at the -- at the top of the hill 16 and that flat area and so we -- as grade dropped 17 down, it just seemed to be a very natural place to 18 tuck some additional parking there rather than 19 creating more disturbance. 20 MR. MISARTI: Okay. Thank you. And I 21 just have one question about the parking, under-the- 22 building parking. When you showed the plan, that 23 parking plan, it looks like there are a lot of 24 columns, like you've got two or three parking spaces 25 and the columns are right there and then especially Page 40 1 the condensers up on the roof. 2 MR. MISARTI: Okay. That's it. Thank 3 you. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Please 5 come up, state your name and spell your last name, 6 please. 7 MS. BENYO: Hi. Good evening, 8 everyone. Claire Benyo, B-E-N-Y-O. All right, I 9 have several questions so just bear with me. 10 So first I wanted to ask, in follow-up 11 to the sales pitch that we heard last week about all 12 of the features and amenities that would be 13 available to the residents, there were specific 14 features that were highlighted, such as the 15 buildings would be carved in and it would be nestled 16 into the side of the slope, so I think there was a 17 little bit of a conflicting viewpoint from the side 18 view to the overhead view of how much this building 19 is being carved into the slope. We were assured by 20 the engineering team that it was set far back from 21 the slope, but it was highlighted very much that it 22 was nestled in, was actually the exact words that 23 were used, that it was nestled in, it was a feature 24 of those

it was set far back from 21 the slope, but it was highlighted very much that it 22 was nestled in, was actually the exact words that 23 were used, that it was nestled in, it was a feature 24 of those first-floor apartments. 25 MR. APPEL: I'm not sure of the Page 39 1 you're showing a lot where the tandem parking is. I 2 mean, is that a risk that people are going to be, 3 like, smashing into those columns with their car? 4 MR. APPEL: We've -- we've done a lot 5 of these buildings; these are not -- these are 6 standard stalls, not compact stalls, so we have a 7 lot of jobs that have smaller drive aisles and 8 compact stalls. This is actually very well 9 proportioned, both for vehicular movement and moving 10 cars, and these dimensions, we've -- we've used on 11 several thousand other apartments and they -- they 12 -- they do work quite well. 13 MR. MISARTI: Okay. You're not going 14 to -- you're not going to smash into them. And you 15 mentioned at the last meeting that they were pitched 16 roofs on the building. It seems like they're all 17 flat roofs. 18 MR. APPEL: I -- if I mentioned 19 something pitched, it would have been in connection 20 either with the maintenance building or the 21 clubhouse. The remaining -- all of the residential 22 buildings are flat roof, and the reason why we made 23 them flat roof is because to get the high efficiency 24 that was required by your -- the green provisions in 25 the ordinance, we needed to use split systems with Page 41 1 context of what you're -- what you're asking in 2 here. 3 MS. BENYO: Last time we were here, 4 you showed some drawings of the building that was 5 nestled into the side of the slope. 6 MR. APPEL: Well, all of the -- all of 7 the buildings have a high side and a low side, so 8 the high side, the buildings are, in fact, all 9 pushed into the grade and the slope, so -- but 10 that's why I'm not -- 11 MS. BENYO: So it's pushed into the 12 grade of the slope but it's not on the slope, we 13 were assured it was very far from the slope. 14 MR. APPEL: Oh, I think -- 15 MS. BENYO: Or is it built into the 16 slope? 17 MR. APPEL: I think you're talking a 18 different question. 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker. 20 MR. PLOCKER: I just wanted to 21 clarify. I believe there was a discussion in 22 testimony regarding the distance of Building D from 23 what we'll call "the ridgeline," or it's not really 24 the

r. 20 MR. PLOCKER: I just wanted to 21 clarify. I believe there was a discussion in 22 testimony regarding the distance of Building D from 23 what we'll call "the ridgeline," or it's not really 24 the ridgeline but it was the line that was used in 25 the concept plan on the settlement agreement, and

12 (Pages 42 to 45)12 (Pages 42 to 45) Page 42 1 Mr. Appel had testified about how the ordinance and 2 the settlement agreement required building all 3 construction or development to be west of that 4 ridgeline, and Mr. Appel testified that the actual, 5 you know, land east of that line actually still 6 remains a bit flat but -- I don't want to take his 7 words from him, but I think there might be some 8 confusion about all the buildings and how they're 9 built into the slopes on the property with the 10 actual ridgeline that's on the concept plan and on 11 our plans. 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Appel, do you 13 agree with that? 14 MR. APPEL: Yes. Yes, I do. Building 15 D, if that is your question -- 16 MS. BENYO: Um-hum. 17 MR. APPEL: -- was placed on the flat 18 area that was prescribed in the ordinance and 19 there's a -- there are ridgeline measurements and we 20 designed the building to fit within those lines that 21 were created by the ordinance. 22 MS. BENYO: Okay, thank you. And what 23 geotechnical assessments have been done for those 24 buildings on that slope? 25 MR. APPEL: Well, what you've got to Page 44 1 MS. BENYO: Will there be any publicly 2 available information for a geotechnical assessment 3 on the stability of the slope with the additional 4 weight of the building and construction and blasting 5 and water irrigation systems and new pipes and 6 gates? 7 MR. PLOCKER: My client will have to 8 apply for building permits with the Township of West 9 Orange. There are many regulations and state 10 regulations that govern those items and my client 11 will have to comply with them. And once those 12 permit applications are filed, presumably, they will 13 be available from the Township of West Orange. 14 MS. BENYO: And what would be some -- 15 an example of a reason that you might not be able to 16 build on a site based on those assessments? 17 MR. APPEL: I'm not aware; the 18 question is not if, the question is how, so 19 normally, these things are -- they design the 20 foundations based on the subsurface conditions. 21 MS. BENYO: Thank you. And I have a 22 question for the Board. Will the Township of West 23 Orange be hiring a geotechnical engineer to assess 24 the stability of the slope and the impact that this 25 will have to the land and the surrounding land Page 43 1 remember is this is a Planning Board application, so 2 the hard engineering for

ssess 24 the stability of the slope and the impact that this 25 will have to the land and the surrounding land Page 43 1 remember is this is a Planning Board application, so 2 the hard engineering for construction drawings 3 hasn't been done yet. 4 MS. BENYO: If I might, I'm running 5 out of time so if I might just interrupt you. When 6 will the geotechnical assessments -- 7 MR. APPEL: There was -- 8 MS. BENYO: -- be done? 9 MR. APPEL: There was already 10 geotechnical reports -- 11 MS. BENYO: Um-hum. 12 MR. APPEL: -- as a starting point, 13 indicating height and levels of rock and suitability 14 for design and foundations. That is done, not by me 15 but by a structural engineer who will review all 16 that and design the foundation so that they will 17 properly interface with the subsurface conditions. 18 MS. BENYO: And where is that 19 information available to the public? 20 MR. PLOCKER: It's not. 21 MR. APPEL: It's not -- 22 MR. PLOCKER: It's not part of this 23 application. 24 MR. APPEL: -- part of this 25 application. Page 45 1 around it? 2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Don't know yet. 3 We'll get back to you on that. 4 MS. BENYO: Okay, thank you. 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You're welcome. 6 MS. BENYO: Can I continue? I have 7 just another section about the fencing. 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Go ahead. One more 9 and -- 10 MS. BENYO: So these are questions now 11 specifically about the fencing. Are you responsible 12 for designing the deer fencing and selecting the 13 materials? 14 MR. APPEL: I am not personally. 15 MS. BENYO: Who is responsible for 16 selecting the materials and installing the deer 17 fencing? 18 MR. APPEL: I would assume it would be 19 under the -- the responsibilities of the site 20 engineer. 21 MS. BENYO: And when will it be 22 available to speak to the site engineer during this 23 hearing process? 24 MR. PLOCKER: Well, Mr. Anderson 25 testified; if you have further questions, there's a

13 (Pages 46 to 49)13 (Pages 46 to 49) Page 46 1 very good chance he'll be re-called at some point in 2 these hearings, it's likely not going to be tonight, 3 but with regard to deer fencing, my client would 4 obviously work with the -- should there be an 5 approval, would work with the township professionals 6 in using appropriate material and structure and 7 color and things of that nature. 8 MS. BENYO: Is the sole purpose of the 9 deer fencing solely to regrow the forest; there's no 10 other reason that the fence is in the settlement? 11 MR. APPEL: That's outside my 12 expertise. 13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Can you let 14 some others and we'll come back -- 15 MS. BENYO: Sure. 16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: -- thank you. 17 MS. BENYO: Okay. 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Come back. Thank 19 you. 20 Welcome. State your name and spell 21 your last name for the record, please. 22 MS. PEARSON: Can you hear me? 23 Jessica Pearson, Verona. Good evening and -- 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Spell your last name 25 for the record, please. Page 48 1 elevation from ground level showing, so that's one, 2 but I have heard, in passing, others being asked 3 for, "This is going to be a waiver," "We have a 4 variance," "We're going to be asking for a variance 5 for access through this roadway." Could you 6 enumerate the variances that are being sought? 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker. 8 MR. PLOCKER: I could state for the 9 Board -- 10 MS. PEARSON: Thank you. 11 MR. PLOCKER: -- that the only 12 variance under the Municipal Land Use Law being 13 sought is the one for the percentage of exposure of 14 the foundations. That was just discussed and 15 testified to -- 16 MS. PEARSON: Okay. 17 MR. PLOCKER: -- by Mr. Appel. There 18 are two de minimus RSIS exceptions that would be 19 outside of Mr. Appel's expertise. 20 MS. PEARSON: Okay, but I'm asking for 21 the whole kit and caboodle, so are those the only 22 ones, three? Well, outside of his jurisdiction but 23 still de minimis -- 24 MS. McGOVERN: He doesn't -- 25 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ms. McGovern. Page 47 1 MS. PEARSON: P-E-A-R-S-O-N. 2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 3 MS. PEARSON: You're very welcome, and 4 I thank the Board for putting in so many hours on 5 this. 6 So Mr. Appel, you have asked a couple 7 of -- you mentioned in passing, but I would like to 8 know if there's ever been a formal enumeration of 9 variances being sought at least from your end and if 10 so,

. Appel, you have asked a couple 7 of -- you mentioned in passing, but I would like to 8 know if there's ever been a formal enumeration of 9 variances being sought at least from your end and if 10 so, could you please enumerate them? Variances, one 11 being the height of the -- what we were just talking 12 about -- 13 MR. APPEL: The -- 14 MS. PEARSON: -- the height of the -- 15 MR. APPEL: The only -- 16 MS. PEARSON: -- base of the building. 17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: He can answer. 18 MR. APPEL: The -- 19 MS. PEARSON: Are the elevations 20 showing? 21 MR. APPEL: The only relief from the 22 ordinance is the exposure of the foundation. The 23 height is fully conforming -- actually, the height 24 is fully -- 25 MS. PEARSON: I was talking about the Page 49 1 MS. McGOVERN: If it's -- if it's not 2 within his purview, he doesn't have that 3 information. He's not an expert in that field. I 4 think that's the traffic side of things, is that 5 where the RSIS -- 6 MR. PLOCKER: Yeah, I believe Mr. 7 Anderson already touched on them and our traffic 8 engineer, Mr. Pehnke, will testify to those when he 9 testifies. 10 MS. PEARSON: Okay. 11 MS. McGOVERN: So RSIS is different 12 than a variance. 13 MS. PEARSON: I understand what RSIS 14 is. Thank you, though, I appreciate that. 15 The green wall shielding over the 16 garage, over the grills, will any of that green 17 material act to block the necessary ventilation 18 that's needed in some of those underground garages? 19 MR. APPEL: We -- 20 MS. PEARSON: Just curious. 21 MR. APPEL: That would be -- that 22 would be designed to balance that off. Some of the 23 garages will require mechanical ventilation. We're 24 hoping the majority of them will remain naturally 25 ventilated because we think that's a better

14 (Pages 50 to 53)14 (Pages 50 to 53) Page 50 1 response. 2 MS. PEARSON: Okay. So who's going to 3 testify about that? You're just saying that it'll 4 be mechanically done and that's that? 5 MR. APPEL: Well, it's either going to 6 be naturally ventilated or mechanically ventilated. 7 MS. PEARSON: Okay. 8 MR. APPEL: There's nothing more I can 9 offer on that. 10 MS. PEARSON: Thank you. At one hour 11 and 32 into the meeting on July 31, you stated that 12 Mr. Anderson had shared the geotechnical reports 13 with you, after which you stated the best way to 14 support a building is on bedrock, adding that we 15 have an opportunity here to build on bedrock, noting 16 that you design these things to a degree, but we 17 also hire other people, we read the reports, et 18 cetera, and then you stated that the conditions here 19 are not scary but ideal. However, you did add that 20 there was a negative to this, that there might be 21 some rock that has to be moved away from certain 22 areas in order to construct the building, so with 23 that in mind, would you have a good idea about where 24 the movement of rock will have to occur? Since you 25 had the geotechnical report, could you show us on an Page 52 1 MS. PEARSON: Actually -- 2 MR. PLOCKER: Is that a matter within 3 your expertise? 4 MR. APPEL: Not really, it's really 5 given to us through geotech reports and other 6 information. 7 MS. PEARSON: But you testified on 8 that report, sir, so I would like to know where that 9 rock will need to be moved, and you also went on -- 10 went a little bit further on your testimony on the 11 rock, stating that -- hold on. You also stated that 12 the rock was thin in certain areas and fractured. 13 You said that too. 14 MR. APPEL: So that is -- 15 MS. PEARSON: You must know where 16 we're going to have to move rock if you know where 17 -- 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Let him answer the 19 question, please. You asked the question, let him 20 answer, please. 21 MR. APPEL: If I can answer, the 22 geotechnical report provides recommendations for 23 construction. 24 MS. PEARSON: Mmm. 25 MR. APPEL: This is a starting point. Page 51 1 overview where you feel the most amount of rock will 2 be being removed, since you told us that you knew -- 3 you know where that is. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I don't think he 5 testified to that. 6 MR. APPEL: I -- 7 MS. PEARSON: One hour and 32. I have 8 it right

being removed, since you told us that you knew -- 3 you know where that is. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I don't think he 5 testified to that. 6 MR. APPEL: I -- 7 MS. PEARSON: One hour and 32. I have 8 it right here. 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Appel, did you 10 testify to the movement of rock? 11 MS. PEARSON: Yes -- 12 MR. APPEL: I -- 13 MS. PEARSON: -- at one minute -- one 14 hour and 32 minutes. 15 MR. APPEL: My -- 16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Hang on. 17 MR. APPEL: My -- 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm going to ask the 19 expert. Hang on. Thank you. Okay. Did you 20 testify to the movement of rock? 21 MR. APPEL: My recollection in here is 22 that I mentioned only that I understood that some 23 rock would need to be removed, not about locations 24 or amount, and I -- I cannot get into more detail 25 than that. Page 53 1 And the recommendations indicated that they -- based 2 on the subsurface analysis, is that some of the rock 3 is friable, that it can be removed mechanically. So 4 that's what I was making reference to. 5 MS. PEARSON: Well, you referenced the 6 geotechnical report a number of times, as did Mr. 7 Anderson; the two of you both took the opportunity 8 to add testimony about that report, so my question 9 is: Why isn't it available for public consumption 10 if we've had two experts, not even just one but two 11 experts testify on a report that has not been made 12 public for us to read? And if you don't want to 13 make it public because only two experts and not the 14 author, then I think that it's time to bring the 15 author of that report in to testify on it because we 16 have two second parties doing so. 17 (Pause) 18 MS. PEARSON: No? 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: This is time to ask 20 questions of the expert. 21 MS. PEARSON: So will you bring the 22 geotechnical or will you make the report public? 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We don't know yet. 24 MS. PEARSON: Will you send the 25 Planning Board your -- the geotechnical report --

15 (Pages 54 to 57)15 (Pages 54 to 57) Page 54 1 perhaps I'm asking the attorney about this -- so 2 that that report, after having been testified by two 3 of you experts, could be made public for public 4 consumption? 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: This is up to the 6 applicant. 7 MS. PEARSON: I am asking the 8 applicant. 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, good. Thank 10 you. 11 MS. PEARSON: And the applicant is not 12 answering me. 13 MR. PLOCKER: I'm sorry, I'm not -- I 14 did not testify, I'm not answering -- 15 MS. PEARSON: Okay. 16 MR. PLOCKER: -- that question right 17 now. 18 MS. PEARSON: So even though you 19 represent this poor gentleman sitting next to you -- 20 MR. PLOCKER: Well, I don't think he's 21 a poor gentleman, I think he's a very qualified 22 architect -- 23 MS. PEARSON: I understand that but -- 24 MR. PLOCKER: -- who I've worked with 25 before. Page 56 1 comply with -- 2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, you're 3 testifying. 4 MS. PEARSON: I'm -- 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am -- 6 MS. PEARSON: -- asking a question. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, you're 8 testifying. 9 MS. PEARSON: Excuse me. I am not. 10 I'm asking a question, it's a leading question and 11 I'm trying to get to it. Let me finish, please. 12 How can this, with all of those 13 surrounding conditions, be safe? How can you 14 testify to that being safe? If it's an ideal place 15 to put your building on fractured rock, how is that 16 safe? 17 MR. PLOCKER: That's outside the 18 architect's expertise. 19 MS. PEARSON: But he testified to it. 20 MR. PLOCKER: That's outside his 21 expertise. 22 MS. PEARSON: Well, maybe we should 23 have stopped him from testifying when he said it. 24 Sir, could you please answer the 25 question? Page 55 1 MS. PEARSON: -- you're leaving him 2 hanging. 3 MR. PLOCKER: I don't want to get into 4 a colloquy, I don't want to argue; what I will 5 represent, again, is that any of the site work post 6 approval that needs to be done, including the 7 removal of rock, it is all regulated, it is 8 regulated by the State of New Jersey, it is 9 regulated by the Township of West Orange, and my 10 client will 100 percent acknowledge on the record 11 that it must comply with all of those requirements. 12 MS. PEARSON: That's fine, but can you 13 make that report public for public consumption, and 14 why not? 15 MR. PLOCKER: I don't have an answer 16 for that now. Thank you. 17 MS. PEARSON: Okay. So Mr.