August 14, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

for the betterment of 3 your community -- 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am -- 5 MS. SMALL: -- including landowners 6 who want to use their land. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You're taking the 8 time of the other people -- 9 MS. SMALL: Can I submit this -- 10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: No, ma'am. 11 MS. SMALL: -- right now? 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: No, ma'am. Thank 13 you. Come back during public comment, we'll be 14 happy to hear from you. Thank you very much for 15 your time. 16 (Members of the public shout out - 17 indiscernible) 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Welcome. Please 19 state your name and spell your last name for the 20 record. 21 MS. KLEIN: Rachel Klein, K-L-E-I-N, 22 Howell Drive. I'm going to make -- I do have 23 questions for the architect but I just want to say 24 just two things. Howell Drive wraps around, I think 25 there's a big confusion about how -- when people ask Page 77 1 That's all my questions. 2 MR. APPEL: So -- 3 MS. McGOVERN: Two questions. 4 MS. KLEIN: Two questions. 5 MR. APPEL: So I -- 6 MS. KLEIN: The lights on Building D 7 and what happens if the power goes off. 8 MR. APPEL: So the question about 9 lights, the testimony I gave earlier was that lights 10 on balconies, terraces would be low, not high 11 overhead lights shining down but we were looking -- 12 and for instance, like, on the balconies, that they 13 would be down lights, not lanterns so that they 14 would not shine outward but they would shine 15 downward for purpose of -- 16 MS. KLEIN: And you'll -- 17 MR. APPEL: -- minimizing glare. 18 MS. KLEIN: And people won't be able 19 to just bring whatever they want to their own 20 balconies? 21 MR. APPEL: With regard to -- 22 MS. KLEIN: Like, I'm below this, 23 right? So anything -- I'll be able to see plenty if 24 anything's shining downward. Even if you say -- if 25 they decide they want to have more lights on their

21 (Pages 78 to 81)21 (Pages 78 to 81) Page 78 1 property. 2 MR. APPEL: The lights that will be 3 included as part of the building -- 4 MS. KLEIN: Yeah. 5 MR. APPEL: -- that's what I can 6 testify to, not what a resident could -- 7 MS. KLEIN: But they are going to have 8 balconies facing -- 9 MR. APPEL: There are units that have 10 balconies and I've given testimony that the lighting 11 was designed in a certain way, down lights, so that 12 it would minimize glare coming off the building. 13 And I believe the testimony with regard to 14 generators is that generators were being proposed 15 for providing security and gate controls, you know, 16 so people can get in and out of the garage, not the 17 entire building, on emergency power, so it's very 18 small, limited generators. 19 MS. KLEIN: Thank you. 20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 21 Please state your name and spell your 22 last name for the record. 23 MR. SHARRET: Sure. Good evening. 24 Jonathan Sharret, S-H-A-R-R-E-T. I also live on 25 Howell Drive. Page 80 1 the site engineer places that building, but we made 2 numerous adjustments to the building to make sure 3 that it would fit and work with the -- where the 4 site engineer was able to place the building. 5 MR. SHARRET: So the site engineer 6 determined that it should be placed seven feet away 7 from the ridgeline. 8 MR. APPEL: Well, seven feet is just 9 one -- is the closest point. Many of the areas, I 10 think Mr. Anderson testified that there's many areas 11 that are significantly larger than that. 12 MR. SHARRET: Sure, but I'm talking 13 about the pinch point. So would it be possible to 14 move Building D further away from the ridgeline? 15 MR. APPEL: That would be outside of 16 my expertise. 17 MR. SHARRET: Okay, but the way that 18 you designed the building accommodated for the 19 seven-foot distance from the ridgeline. 20 MR. APPEL: That's correct. 21 MR. SHARRET: Okay. And you never 22 considered whether to move the building further away 23 from the ridgeline. 24 MR. APPEL: Outside of what, you know, 25 that was really a site engineering process. Page 79 1 I had a couple questions about Building 2 D. You had testified last time that at one point, 3 Building D is only about six or seven feet off of 4 the ridgeline, correct? 5 MR. APPEL: Yes, I believe seven feet 6 to the ridgeline was the closest point. 7 MR. SHARRET: And why was it decided 8 to

Building D is only about six or seven feet off of 4 the ridgeline, correct? 5 MR. APPEL: Yes, I believe seven feet 6 to the ridgeline was the closest point. 7 MR. SHARRET: And why was it decided 8 to build Building D so close at that point to the 9 ridgeline? 10 MR. APPEL: This was a balance of 11 designing the building as well as the roadways in 12 dealing with all the other constraints, so this is 13 what was believed to be the best placement. 14 MR. SHARRET: Was there ever any 15 considerations to move Building D further away from 16 that ridgeline? 17 MR. APPEL: I don't -- I don't know 18 all of the steps that the site engineer took, I just 19 know where the landing point was, and there was a 20 lot of investigation and this was deemed to be the 21 best location. 22 MR. SHARRET: Were you involved in any 23 of the decision-making as to where to place the 24 building? 25 MR. APPEL: We adjusted the building, Page 81 1 MR. SHARRET: Do you know if the site 2 engineer ever considered moving it further away from 3 the ridgeline? 4 MR. APPEL: I don't know all the 5 iterations prior to this. 6 MR. SHARRET: Maybe the questions will 7 be the same answer, but you had testified also that 8 Building D is about 106 feet away from the homes on 9 Howell Drive, correct? 10 MR. APPEL: I don't believe that I 11 gave that testimony of 106 feet. 12 MR. SHARRET: I could be wrong but I 13 have it in my notes that somebody testified that 14 it's about 106 or so feet off of the homes on Howell 15 Drive. 16 VOICE: (Inaudible) 17 MR. APPEL: That is likely a dimension 18 that Mr. Anderson provided to the property line. 19 MR. SHARRET: So, again, the same 20 question. Why was it decided to build Building D? 21 That's the closest point to the property line, 22 right? So of all the existing homes in the area, 23 the building that is closest to the property lines 24 is Building D, so why was it decided to build 25 Building D there, closest to the existing homes?

22 (Pages 82 to 85)22 (Pages 82 to 85) Page 82 1 MR. APPEL: I don't have all the 2 steps, but there -- there were numerous design 3 iterations. This was deemed to be the best and we 4 had provided sections showing the relationship of 5 the building directly to the closest house on 6 Howell. 7 MR. SHARRET: Right. But Building D 8 is the largest of the four buildings, correct? 9 MR. APPEL: I believe it is the 10 largest, correct. 11 MR. SHARRET: Right, and it has the 12 most residential units as well, correct? 13 MR. APPEL: I want to double-check. 14 (Pause) 15 MR. APPEL: Yes. 16 MR. SHARRET: So I guess the question 17 I have is: Why was the decision made to put the 18 largest building with the most number of residential 19 units and have that be closest to the ridgeline and 20 closest to existing homes? 21 MR. APPEL: This -- this was 22 consideration of a lot of different issues and it is 23 a site engineering issue, but there were a number of 24 -- 25 MR. SHARRET: What were some of the Page 84 1 MR. APPEL: I don't recall all the 2 prior iterations because it's been in this 3 configuration for quite some time. 4 MR. SHARRET: And again, going back to 5 decision-making for Building D, Building D is the 6 only building that currently is contemplated to have 7 a roof deck, correct? 8 MR. APPEL: That's correct. 9 MR. SHARRET: So again, a decision was 10 made to put a roof deck on the building that's going 11 to be closest to existing homes and not to put a 12 roof deck anywhere else. 13 MR. APPEL: But the location of the 14 roof deck is -- was pushed, not to the edge of the 15 building closest to Howell but is more central to 16 the building. 17 MR. SHARRET: Right, but that wasn't 18 my question. The only building that has a roof, 19 that is Building D and Building D is the unit that 20 is closest to existing homes, correct? 21 MR. APPEL: That is the -- the edge of 22 -- the edge of that building is. It's a long 23 building, so only that one edge is very close to the 24 building. 25 MR. SHARRET: Right, but a roof deck Page 83 1 considerations that were taken into account when 2 making the decision to put that largest building 3 right up against the ridgeline and right up against 4 the existing homes? 5 MR. PLOCKER: For the record, I'm just 6 going to interject. Our site plan is the site plan. 7 It fully conforms with all setbacks and it conforms 8 with the

nd right up against 4 the existing homes? 5 MR. PLOCKER: For the record, I'm just 6 going to interject. Our site plan is the site plan. 7 It fully conforms with all setbacks and it conforms 8 with the requirement that the building we placed 9 west of the ridgeline. And that's the application 10 that's before this Board, not any internal thinking 11 or processes that may have led to the site plan that 12 is before the Board, so I would just instruct the 13 Board and everybody in the room that that's the 14 situation. 15 MR. SHARRET: Are you asserting 16 privilege? I'm trying to understand what that 17 instruction was. 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: He's making a 19 comment. Keep going. 20 MR. SHARRET: Okay. I think that 21 these are relevant questions and I hope that the 22 Planning Board at least will consider them. 23 So was there ever a consideration to 24 make Building D smaller and to increase the sizes 25 instead of Buildings A, B or C? Page 85 1 could have been put on Buildings D, B or C, which 2 would have been much further away from existing 3 homes, no? 4 MR. APPEL: This was what was put in 5 the application and this is what's being proposed. 6 MR. SHARRET: Do you have any idea as 7 to why that decision was made? 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Sorry, that decision 9 -- he's not here for decision-making. I want to 10 stop you right there. You've asked him about nine 11 questions about decision-making. You can ask him 12 about decision about architecture, but the process 13 is here. So they've made their decisions, he's not 14 the person to ask how they came to that decision. 15 The application stands before us, sir. So you can 16 ask him about the architecture, but not the 17 decision-making process. Thank you. 18 MR. SHARRET: Understood. So just to 19 clarify that point, then, I guess, were you 20 instructed by the applicant to put the roof deck on 21 Building D and therefore, that's how you designed 22 it? 23 MR. PLOCKER: Again, that goes to the 24 same point. That is all part of the decision-making 25 process. The application and the site plan before

23 (Pages 86 to 89)23 (Pages 86 to 89) Page 86 1 the Board -- 2 MR. SHARRET: I'm asking if he's the 3 one who decided or if he was told -- 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Well, he -- 5 MR. SHARRET: -- to put this. 6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: He was told to do 7 it, as evidenced by the application, he's the 8 architect, so -- 9 MR. SHARRET: But he didn't testify to 10 that. You're saying that, but I want to know if 11 that's the testimony. 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Well, it's -- it 13 stands in the public view that there is a building, 14 it's D, it has a roof deck on it and he's the 15 architect, so -- I mean, here it is, A, B, C. You 16 want him to say that, that he put the roof deck 17 there? I'm -- the Board -- the Board is here so we 18 get information to make a decision. If you're 19 asking did he physically draw that, he can answer 20 that question. That -- that would make sense. Did 21 he have a decision in the process? The applicant's 22 attorney said "We're not discussing that." This is 23 stuff that's here. 24 MR. SHARRET: Well, somebody submitted 25 this plan -- all right? -- with the fact that Page 88 1 question on this, and I -- 2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 3 MR. SHARRET: -- understand your 4 point. Thank you. 5 Were you the one who made these 6 decisions, yes or no? 7 MR. APPEL: No. 8 MR. SHARRET: Okay. At the last 9 meeting, you put up a slide showing Building D 10 relative to steep slope. Do you recall that? 11 MR. APPEL: You said Building D 12 relative -- there were -- there were two site 13 sections that were shown at the last hearing. 14 MR. SHARRET: Right, there was a 15 cross-sectional view showing Building D and how it 16 was positioned relative to the steep slope. Do you 17 recall that? 18 MR. APPEL: Yes. 19 MR. SHARRET: All right. Do you have 20 that slide? I think it would make the question 21 easier. 22 MR. FAGAN: I don't have Mr. ... 23 (inaudible) 24 MR. SHARRET: Okay. Well, let me ask 25 the question if we don't need the slide, that slide. Page 87 1 Building D is closest to the ridgeline, closest to 2 existing homes, has the highest ceilings, has the 3 roof deck. All right? Somebody made that decision, 4 somebody submitted the plan -- all right? -- with 5 that decision. If it wasn't the architect who made 6 that decision, that's fine, but I still would like 7 to know who made that decision and whether the 8 Planning Board, you know, and this may be perhaps

decision. If it wasn't the architect who made 6 that decision, that's fine, but I still would like 7 to know who made that decision and whether the 8 Planning Board, you know, and this may be perhaps a 9 separate issue not for, you know, this particular 10 witness, but whether the Planning Board is even 11 considering, you know, asking for a change of plans 12 to move things back off of that ridgeline, to move 13 things away from the... (audio distortion) 14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The applicant has 15 the right under the law to present a plan. The 16 Planning Board listens to the public, listens to the 17 questions, listens to our experts, listens to their 18 experts, then decides based on all the testimony. 19 So, again, if your question is did he draw it, he 20 can answer that question because he did testify. If 21 you're asking did he decide that, he can answer 22 that, if he did or did not. It's a yes-no question. 23 Those are the issues and I want to keep this so we 24 have a clear record. 25 MR. SHARRET: I'll ask one final Page 89 1 Do you recall, from that cross- 2 sectional view, how far away Building D was in the 3 ridgeline in that cross-section? 4 (Slide is put up on the screen.) 5 MR. SHARRET: Yes, I believe this was 6 the slide. 7 (Inaudible discussion) 8 MR. APPEL: So on that, and I'm just 9 looking at the site plan right now and that area, 10 it's hard to discern exactly where -- where that is, 11 but it would be ranging somewhere between 20 and 40 12 feet. 13 MR. SHARRET: All right. Would it be 14 possible for you to provide a slide showing the 15 cross-section at that pinch point? 16 MR. APPEL: You're talking about where 17 -- where that corner is? It's going to be quite 18 similar to -- to what's -- to what's already shown 19 here on section -- on section PB-4.4C. 20 MR. SHARRET: Right, but the way that 21 you're presenting this here, and there were a lot of 22 questions, you know, concerning access to the rear 23 of the building, some safety questions in that 24 regard, you're showing this here as between 20 and 25 40 feet. I think it would be helpful to be able to

24 (Pages 90 to 93)24 (Pages 90 to 93) Page 90 1 see what it looks like at that pinch point. Are you 2 able to provide that cross-section? 3 MR. APPEL: It would be -- it would be 4 quite similar to this but obviously, there would be 5 just some grade changes, uh -- 6 MR. SHARRET: No, obviously, there 7 would be grade changes; that's what I'd like the 8 cross-section to show, because there were questions 9 about how there would be access to the rear of the 10 building and I think it would be helpful to be able 11 to see what the grade looks like at that pinch 12 point. So I'm asking you if you can provide that. 13 MR. APPEL: The -- actually, the 14 grading would be shown on the site drawings, so it 15 wouldn't need to be shown on a separate section 16 because you can pick up that grading right on the 17 site plan. 18 MR. SHARRET: No, I understand that, 19 but there was a decision made to draw the cross- 20 section at this particular point, correct? And as 21 the architect, I assume you were the one who made 22 the decision to show the cross-section, you know, 23 where it's widest at, you know, between 20 and 40 24 feet, as opposed to where it's narrowest at seven 25 feet, right? Page 92 1 because it provided an opportunity to have units 2 with dens on one side and units without dens on the 3 other and that, we thought, was a better decision 4 for the project. 5 MR. SHARRET: Part of the decision- 6 making also was to be able to put the affordable 7 units on the smaller side of the hallway, correct? 8 MR. APPEL: That's where they're 9 presently shown, correct. 10 MR. SHARRET: Right, and the reason 11 why, at least in part, the central hallway was 12 offset was to make smaller units that could then be 13 affordable units, correct? 14 MR. APPEL: Are you asking me or 15 telling me? 16 MR. SHARRET: It's a leading question, 17 but it is a question. 18 MR. APPEL: The primary reason was 19 done for dens. There are market units on the short 20 side -- the shorter side of the hallway. It's only 21 a couple of feet difference, it's not -- it's not 22 hugely different. 23 MR. SHARRET: Right, I'm glad you 24 mentioned that because you had testified that when 25 you're standing in that hallway and you're looking, Page 91 1 MR. APPEL: It doesn't -- it doesn't 2 change the picture very much. 3 MR. SHARRET: All right, but could you 4 provide that picture? 5 (Pause) 6 MR.

anding in that hallway and you're looking, Page 91 1 MR. APPEL: It doesn't -- it doesn't 2 change the picture very much. 3 MR. SHARRET: All right, but could you 4 provide that picture? 5 (Pause) 6 MR. APPEL: I don't -- I don't have 7 that section available. 8 MR. SHARRET: I'm not asking if you 9 have it available here, I'm asking could you go back 10 to your office and create it? 11 MR. PLOCKER: That's a -- the 12 applicant will take the comment under advisement. 13 MR. SHARRET: Okay. Thank you. 14 One final set of questions. There were 15 some slides, some testimony, about the positioning 16 of the central hallway within the building and you 17 had testified that it was offset, such that one side 18 of the building had larger units and one side of the 19 building had smaller units, correct? 20 MR. APPEL: That's correct. 21 MR. SHARRET: Okay. Was there ever 22 any consideration made to have that central hallway 23 not offset so that both sides of the hallway would 24 be equal in size? 25 MR. APPEL: We -- we did that merely Page 93 1 you know, at the doors, for example, of the units, 2 no one would be able to tell that one is an 3 affordable unit and one is not, correct? 4 MR. APPEL: That was my testimony, 5 yes. 6 MR. SHARRET: Right, but there are 7 also utility closets and storage closets along each 8 floor, correct? 9 MR. APPEL: Out of necessity, correct. 10 MR. SHARRET: Right. And all of those 11 units -- I'm sorry, all of those utility closets and 12 storage closets, they happen to be carved out from 13 only the affordable units, correct? 14 MR. APPEL: What's shown in there on 15 the plans, likely they're -- they're carved out, the 16 utility closets are carved out of the affordable 17 units. 18 MR. SHARRET: Right, so that makes the 19 affordable units smaller than the market units, even 20 on the same side, correct? 21 MR. APPEL: In a very de minimus way, 22 yes. 23 MR. SHARRET: Right, and also, if you 24 were standing in that hallway and you saw a storage 25 closet or a utility closet and you saw an apartment

25 (Pages 94 to 97)25 (Pages 94 to 97) Page 94 1 door right next door to that, you would know that 2 that's an affordable unit, correct? 3 MR. APPEL: That's a little bit of a 4 leap -- 5 MR. SHARRET: Okay. 6 MR. APPEL: -- but I suppose someone 7 could make that connection. 8 MR. SHARRET: Well, I'm not asking if 9 somebody can make the connection, it's a fact -- 10 right? -- that you made all of the affordable units 11 smaller by putting them on the smaller side of the 12 hallway and then cutting storage units out of them, 13 right? 14 MR. APPEL: The storage -- either the 15 storage or utility closets are necessary to make the 16 building work. 17 MR. SHARRET: Right, but you didn't 18 decide to pull them out of the market units, 19 correct? 20 MR. APPEL: I did not -- in some 21 cases, they may be in market units, but on the plans 22 that were submitted, they're -- they're all carved 23 out of the affordable units. 24 MR. SHARRET: Okay. All right, thank 25 you, no further questions. Page 96 1 at here, so there's a lot of mix and confusion, so 2 that's my question. 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So you're basically 4 saying that -- I just want to get this for the Board 5 and the public. 6 MR. WEISLEDER: That's for example. 7 Building D, did those plans initially have a 8 balcony? Did they have a rooftop? Was it as close 9 to the homes? What has shifted, what was changed? 10 They have gone -- they, their attorney, they have 11 gone back to this agreement several times, so 12 they've opened the door to this question. I would 13 like to know if these are the plans that were 14 submitted or ones in discussion because it's a bait 15 and switch. 16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So you're basically 17 asking are the conceptual plans that were part of 18 the agreement -- 19 MR. WEISLEDER: The Planning Board has 20 to follow, yes. 21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Are the conceptual 22 -- you're asking, I just want to be clear, are the 23 conceptual plans that are agreed to by the parties 24 the same plans as presented today. 25 MR. WEISLEDER: Correct. Page 95 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 2 Please -- please state your name and 3 spell your last name for the record. 4 MR. WEISLEDER: Seth, S-E-T-H, 5 Weisleder, W-E-I-S-, as in Sam, L-E-D-, as in David, 6 E-R. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. 8 MR. WEISLEDER: West Orange. 9 I guess my question is, we talked a lot 10 about the settlement agreement and what was