August 14, 2024 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

45 (Pages 174 to 177)45 (Pages 174 to 177) Page 174 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: What are the 2 questions? 3 MS. BENYO: Who is the site engineer? 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: He testified 5 already. 6 MS. BENYO: Mr. Anderson, the first 7 gentleman, who we asked these questions of and he 8 said "Oh, that was the architect that was going to 9 answer those questions" and so we all showed up to 10 ask these questions of the architect and now the 11 architect is telling us "Oh, we must ask these 12 questions of the site engineer"? 13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: What's the -- try a 14 question. 15 MS. BENYO: Shall I pull up all the 16 questions I asked the last two sessions -- 17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Try -- 18 MS. BENYO: -- that I was told to -- 19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Try a question. 20 MS. BENYO: Who's installing the 21 fence? Whose responsibility is it to install the 22 fence? 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. 24 MS. BENYO: The deer fence. Whose 25 responsibility is it to install the deer fence? Page 176 1 MS. BENYO: And who would that be? 2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Whoever they hire. 3 Ask him who they're going to hire. 4 MS. BENYO: Who are you hiring to 5 install the fence? 6 MR. PLOCKER: That is premature, it's 7 an ownership issue. They're not going to go down 8 that path and have full building plans engineered 9 without an approval. This is the first step in the 10 process. 11 MS. BENYO: Will Mr. Anderson be 12 coming back up for public hearing for repeat 13 questions that have already been asked that have 14 been pushed to subsequent meetings that we're all 15 anxiously attending every couple weeks because our 16 questions were told that it's not their expertise, 17 it's not their purview, it's someone else's 18 responsibility? So will he come back up so they can 19 answer the questions that were previously asked? 20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: It's up to the 21 applicant. The applicant can hear your questions 22 and they -- they may choose to or not provide Mr. 23 Anderson to come back. 24 MS. BENYO: So when will all of the 25 questions be answered, because I was informed that Page 175 1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We haven't gotten 2 there yet. That's the environmental people. 3 MS. BENYO: I was informed it was the 4 site engineer who was going to -- 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. 6 MR. PLOCKER: To install it, that's a 7 construction issue. 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Construction issue, 9 okay. 10 MS. BENYO: Who's in charge of 11 installing

who was going to -- 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. 6 MR. PLOCKER: To install it, that's a 7 construction issue. 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Construction issue, 9 okay. 10 MS. BENYO: Who's in charge of 11 installing the fence? 12 MR. PLOCKER: It's a little premature 13 right now. We're here seeking site plan approval 14 from the Board. Obviously -- 15 MS. BENYO: With all due respect, who 16 is in charge of installing the fence? 17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. There's going 18 to be a plan and -- listen. You want to have the 19 answer. 20 MS. BENYO: Yes. 21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: There's somebody 22 who's constructing the place, right? 23 MS. BENYO: Um-hum. 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: He just said it. 25 The person who's constructing it is installing it. Page 177 1 this gentleman was the one who was going to answer 2 my questions about the fence material, the 3 installation, the concerns of the wildlife, when the 4 fence was being instructed. 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So that's going to 6 be the environmental. Our environmentalist, Mr. 7 DeFeo can talk to -- specifically to those answers. 8 MS. BENYO: And when will Mr. DeFeo be 9 here? 10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: After the applicant 11 has finished their portion of the application and 12 the objectors have finished theirs, our -- Mr. DeFeo 13 will be on the list, it'll be published on the 14 website. 15 MS. BENYO: When will Mr. DeFeo be 16 available for public comment and question? 17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We don't know 'til 18 the applicant is finished with their portion. I 19 wish I could tell you, but there's a process. He 20 will be up there, so... I don't know yet. 21 MS. BENYO: You have -- correct me if 22 I'm wrong, but you have already hired the 23 environmental specialist? 24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, we have. 25 MS. BENYO: And when will we have an

46 (Pages 178 to 181)46 (Pages 178 to 181) Page 178 1 opportunity -- if he's here -- well, is tonight an 2 opportunity? 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: He hasn't testified. 4 The applicant is putting on their portion of the 5 application -- 6 MS. BENYO: And will the environmental 7 specialist be able to answer my questions about the 8 building materials that are being used by the fence 9 and the installation of the deer fence? 10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Not tonight, because 11 our expert is not testifying. 12 MS. BENYO: When the environmental 13 specialist is available, will they be able to answer 14 my questions about the building materials of the 15 fence and the installation of the fence? 16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: If it's within his 17 scope of expertise, he will. 18 MS. BENYO: Whose scope is it -- whose 19 scope is it, responsibility to answer those 20 questions? 21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Which questions, 22 ma'am? 23 MS. BENYO: The installation and 24 materials of the deer fence. 25 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The installation's Page 180 1 MS. BENYO: And the Planning Board -- 2 the cost of that environmental specialist, that's 3 being burdened by the West Orange taxpayers? 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: No. 5 MS. BENYO: Who is paying for that? 6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The applicant, 7 through the escrow fund. 8 MS. BENYO: Previously, I asked that 9 question specifically and the applicant specifically 10 said that they were not hiring any environmental 11 specialist. 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We didn't. They 13 didn't, we did. Ma'am, you have to follow the 14 rules. The Board has an escrow fund supplied by the 15 applicant. The township has not done that. We, at 16 our last meeting, had a motion and we engaged Mr. 17 DeFeo. Okay? There's a process. We're following 18 the process. 19 MS. BENYO: And who -- and who's 20 paying Mr. DeFeo, to confirm? 21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm going to try 22 this again. I want you to listen closely. This is 23 paid for by the applicant through the escrow fund. 24 The Planning Board, at its pleasure, can hire 25 experts when we feel there's more information that Page 179 1 probably done by a contractor, the materials could 2 be talked about by Mr. DeFeo. 3 MS. BENYO: When will we have an 4 opportunity to speak to -- 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, I'm going to 6 try this again. The applicant has to finish their 7 portion of the application. I don't know when. The 8 applicant has more people to bring

unity to speak to -- 5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, I'm going to 6 try this again. The applicant has to finish their 7 portion of the application. I don't know when. The 8 applicant has more people to bring before the Board 9 and the public. So as the application progresses, 10 we'll have a better idea. 11 MS. BENYO: I think that there's a 12 general feeling that the public keeps coming here 13 and asking questions and they keep being told 14 "That's not my area of expertise, I'm not authorized 15 to answer that question," and then we have the 16 lovely lawyer who chimes in and gives his written 17 statement for his responsibility -- 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That's why the 19 Planning Board has -- 20 MS. BENYO: -- I keep coming here with 21 questions and I keep being told that's not the 22 person's responsibility to answer. 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: And that's why the 24 Planning Board hired an expert in environmental 25 science. Page 181 1 the Board and the public needs to hear. And Mr. 2 DeFeo is a well-known expert. 3 MS. BENYO: And the last time the -- I 4 apologize, I forgot the lawyer's name, he 5 specifically said that they were not -- he confirmed 6 that they were not hiring -- 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. 8 MS. BENYO: Any -- 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Can I just try this 10 one more time? The Planning Board, us, on behalf of 11 the township, have hired an environmental expert. 12 MS. BENYO: The township has hired an 13 environmental -- 14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, I need you to 15 listen to me real closely. The Planning Board works 16 for the township but has a fund that is not from the 17 taxpayer pool. Okay? 18 MS. BENYO: So the applicant is paying 19 for the environmental specialist. 20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Indirectly, yes. 21 MR. PLOCKER: And Mr. Hess and Mr. 22 Haizel. 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry? 24 MS. BENYO: Can I ask if there's a 25 conflict of interest between the township hiring a

47 (Pages 182 to 185)47 (Pages 182 to 185) Page 182 1 specialist and the applicant -- 2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm going to turn 3 that over to our attorney. 4 MS. BENYO: Thank you. 5 MS. McGOVERN: Okay. So in any 6 Planning Board application with a site plan, we 7 always have a planner and our engineer. They're 8 hired by the town. 9 MS. BENYO: Um-hum. 10 MS. McGOVERN: Before an application 11 begins, they're required, the applicant, to put 12 money into a fund, the escrow fund. They don't get 13 to pick our experts. In this case, we asked for 14 even more money because we knew we wanted to hire an 15 environmental expert. They didn't hire Mr. DeFeo. 16 This Board selected him. They get to pay for him, 17 but they don't get to choose who he is. The Board 18 did. Just like the Board selected their planner and 19 their engineer, just like they testify in every one 20 of our applications, but in this case, because of 21 the environmental concerns, a separate expert was 22 hired. 23 MS. BENYO: Excellent. Thank you for 24 the clarification. Just one final question. A 25 clarification to confirm that Mr. DeFeo will be Page 184 1 not be worded well at all, but they also are not 2 professionals and we have to give them that grace. 3 And Mr. Chair, I would ask -- I would ask that you 4 would help police that because I think we're giving 5 an impression -- we may be giving an impression that 6 we're not intending to. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You're welcome. I 8 think the Chair and the Board has, by extending 9 hours and hours of time to hear every person's 10 questions and make sure that the Board -- and ladies 11 and gentlemen, the goal of this is a fewfold, but 12 the biggest goal is that the Board hear your 13 comments, your questions and the answers by the 14 applicant so we can make a decision based on the 15 facts. So we want -- that's why I'm trying to keep 16 everything on the narrow, right in the middle, we 17 don't go too far left or too far right, because 18 other people in the room have questions, and we 19 don't want people going too far off with the -- with 20 the experts because if it's not in their purview, we 21 should get to the people who it is in their purview. 22 So to that end, I want to thank you again, as 23 Council President said, for your help, questions, 24 and go right ahead, young lady. 25 MS. RUDIN: Joyce Rudin. You might Page

is in their purview. 22 So to that end, I want to thank you again, as 23 Council President said, for your help, questions, 24 and go right ahead, young lady. 25 MS. RUDIN: Joyce Rudin. You might Page 183 1 available for public comment and questioning at some 2 point during this process. 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, and he will 4 make a presentation based on this application. 5 MS. BENYO: Okay. Thank you very 6 much. 7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You're welcome. 8 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Mr. Chairman. 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Council President 10 Rutherford. 11 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: So there's 12 some back-and-forth, on this side of the table at 13 least, with regard to some of the questions that are 14 being posed. I do think it's important for us and 15 for the applicant and their professionals to 16 understand that the folks that are asking these 17 questions are not professionals. They have a 18 personal interest in this project. They matter, 19 they are important to me, I expect they are 20 important to this entire body, and will deserve to 21 be treated with respect. So I think we all need to 22 take a deep breath and afford them the grace that 23 they are due, since they have now come out at least 24 three times and they just want answers to their 25 questions. They may not ask them artfully, they may Page 185 1 not recognize me because I'm a bit younger than I 2 was a few minutes ago. 3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: And I just had my 4 eyes checked so it looks good from here. 5 MS. RUDIN: I would just appreciate if 6 you could put up that cross-section of the hill with 7 the trees and the building and the house. Whose 8 house it is, we don't know, but it's in the woods. 9 (Site plan is put up on the screen.) 10 MS. RUDIN: Okay. So we're not sure 11 whose house that is. 12 MR. APPEL: The house is -- 13 MS. RUDIN: It's in the woods, though. 14 Right there, right before the woods. 15 MR. APPEL: So you're talking about 16 the house that's sitting right here (indicating), at 17 that corner. 18 MS. RUDIN: Yes. So I was just 19 wondering, will construction equipment be going up 20 that hill so that the buildings can be built? 21 MR. APPEL: You're talking about which 22 hill, you're talking about this hill here 23 (indicating)? 24 MS. RUDIN: Well, if you could show me 25 the other hill where the cross-section is.

48 (Pages 186 to 189)48 (Pages 186 to 189) Page 186 1 MR. APPEL: I'm just trying to 2 understand, going in -- I'm trying to -- if I can 3 answer the question, I'll answer the question, but 4 I'm not sure of what you're asking. You're talking 5 about this hill (indicating)? 6 MS. RUDIN: If that's the same hill 7 that's in the cross-section that you showed in the 8 other image, if that's the same place, then yes. 9 Will construction equipment be going up that hill in 10 order to build this -- 11 MR. APPEL: I can't -- 12 MS. RUDIN: -- building? 13 MR. APPEL: I can't fathom why it 14 would be going up and down this hill. It would be 15 on the top of the hill over here (indicating). 16 MS. RUDIN: And how is that -- those 17 large instruments, machines, getting there? Are 18 they going in a different way, in a road that 19 currently exists? 20 MR. APPEL: So there's -- there's 21 roadways -- as far as the sequencing of 22 construction, I'm really -- you know, I'm an 23 architect, I'm not involved in this. I'm trying to 24 do my best to answer your question. I -- I -- I 25 can't fathom why vehicles would be going up and down Page 188 1 these trees are deciduous, correct. 2 MS. RUDIN: So -- 3 MR. APPEL: I think so. 4 MS. RUDIN: Because I see that there 5 are two conifers over there by the building. So the 6 deciduous trees, obviously, the leaves fall, 7 correct? 8 MR. APPEL: Yes. 9 MS. RUDIN: So there was a -- there 10 was a member of the community that asked a question 11 about whether or not there would be a buffer, but 12 when those leaves fall, the community that's living 13 in the older community will see the lights from the 14 new buildings, correct? Because the trees will be 15 bare. 16 MR. APPEL: Well, the -- 17 MS. RUDIN: And they can -- and 18 vice-versa. 19 MR. APPEL: The lights -- the lights 20 face downward, not outward. 21 MS. RUDIN: But the lights from the 22 apartment face -- don't face downward, they face 23 out; is that correct? 24 MR. APPEL: Which lights are you 25 talking about? Page 187 1 in here (indicating), but there would be 2 construction access to bring materials and vehicles 3 and construction equipment in to build and 4 afterwards, it's made clean and paved and the 5 project finished. 6 MS. RUDIN: So no -- to your -- to the 7 best of your knowledge, construction equipment will 8 not be going up that cross-section hill that -- that 9

made clean and paved and the 5 project finished. 6 MS. RUDIN: So no -- to your -- to the 7 best of your knowledge, construction equipment will 8 not be going up that cross-section hill that -- that 9 you're looking at over there. Right there. Equip 10 -- where there are trees, the big tree barrier -- 11 MR. APPEL: It is not -- it's not the 12 applicant's property. 13 MS. RUDIN: Okay. So if you could go 14 back to that other -- other picture. 15 MR. APPEL: Here we go. 16 MS. RUDIN: Okay. 17 MR. APPEL: This one? 18 MS. RUDIN: Are those -- are those -- 19 the drawings, are they the type of trees that are 20 there right now? 21 MR. APPEL: These were just 22 diagrammatic just to be -- just representative. 23 MS. RUDIN: Can we assume that most of 24 these trees are deciduous? 25 MR. APPEL: I would think most of Page 189 1 MS. RUDIN: The lights from the 2 apartments of the people who will be living in those 3 buildings. 4 MR. APPEL: I was indicating that the 5 balcony lighting is not -- they're not wall-mounted 6 lanterns that face outward but they're down-lights 7 that face down. 8 MS. RUDIN: I understand, but the 9 apartments have -- they all have windows and they 10 have lights and we're not just talking about the 11 balcony, the apartments will have lights that'll be 12 on that will bleed onto the community that currently 13 lives there. 14 MR. APPEL: Assuming -- 15 MS. RUDIN: Is that correct? 16 MR. APPEL: Assuming that they don't 17 draw shades, in the same way that if there's lights 18 in this house over, they would -- they would be 19 shining back at the apartment and vice-versa. 20 MS. RUDIN: Okay, so there will be 21 light that they're not exposed to at this point 22 because woods protect them and the buildings are not 23 there, so there will be more light shedding on the 24 community that lives there right now. 25 MR. APPEL: I couldn't opine upon the,

49 (Pages 190 to 193)49 (Pages 190 to 193) Page 190 1 you know, the differences. 2 MS. RUDIN: Okay. 3 MR. APPEL: But you're talking -- 4 you're talking about in excess of about 230 feet, so 5 -- and there are still limbs and other -- you know, 6 when the trees drop their leaves, there's still some 7 substance to the trees as well. 8 MS. RUDIN: Right, but that's pretty 9 bare, bare bones, I would say. Okay, thank you so 10 much. 11 MR. AFRAN: Mr. Chairman? Before Ms. 12 Paul asks her question -- 13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran -- 14 MR. AFRAN: I'm sorry. 15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: -- go ahead. 16 MR. AFRAN: Before Ms. Paul asks her, 17 I just wanted to note for the good order of the 18 meeting that I have yet to do cross-examination. 19 I'm not complaining, I just didn't want anyone to be 20 shocked if, in 20 minutes, I say "By the way, at the 21 next meeting, we still need to do that." I don't 22 think anyone's inclined to hear me do it at this 23 hour, I'm inclined not to, but I did want to note we 24 still need to do that at some point, so I didn't 25 want the Board not to be aware of that. It won't be Page 192 1 MR. AFRAN: One other thing while I'm 2 standing here, it will be easier. We had 3 anticipated, and Mr. Chairman, maybe you see it 4 differently, that Mr. DeFeo would make a 5 presentation before we put on our case, and the 6 reason is that our choice of environmental experts 7 or the need for them probably depends on Mr. DeFeo 8 -- 9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: It's okay. 10 MR. AFRAN: -- so I would think if we 11 could do it that way, that would be easier. 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We'll work together 13 to make sure that everything works out. 14 MR. AFRAN: Okay. 15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay? 16 MR. AFRAN: Thank you. 17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. 18 MS. PAUL: Gilda Paul, P-A-U-L, and 19 before I start, I just want to thank the birthday 20 boy. Is that Mr. Rutherford? Are you Mr. 21 Rutherford? 22 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Yes. Thank 23 you. 24 MS. PAUL: Thanks for your comments, I 25 really appreciate them. Page 191 1 exceptionally long but it'll be longer than our time 2 tonight and I would assume people are tired at this 3 point. 4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: One moment. 5 (Off-the-record discussion) 6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker? 7 MR. PLOCKER: Yes. 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You good? Are you 9 good for September 11, Mr. Afran? Are you good for 10 September 11? 9/11. 11 MR. AFRAN: I think so. 12

ssion) 6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker? 7 MR. PLOCKER: Yes. 8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You good? Are you 9 good for September 11, Mr. Afran? Are you good for 10 September 11? 9/11. 11 MR. AFRAN: I think so. 12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, good. 13 (Off-the-record discussion) 14 MR. AFRAN: (Inaudible) 15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. So you'll go 16 on on September 11. Yes? Good. Okay. 17 MR. AFRAN: (Inaudible) 18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, good. We'll 19 finish the citizens tonight and you'll do September 20 11. 21 MS. McGOVERN: But you have to make a 22 motion -- 23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes. 24 MS. McGOVERN: -- at the end. 25 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, yeah. Page 193 1 COUNCILMAN RUTHERFORD: Oh, thank you. 2 MS. PAUL: So could you put -- do you 3 mind putting your drawing back up, the one that you 4 just had? 5 MR. APPEL: Sure. 6 MS. PAUL: Thank you. 7 (Site plan is put up on the screen.) 8 MS. PAUL: Okay, so I'm about as far 9 as an architect as you can get and I'm not used to 10 looking at architectural renderings -- 11 MR. APPEL: That's all right. 12 MS. PAUL: -- so if you'll bear with 13 me. So I thought that little shed at the bottom was 14 my house but it's not, apparently. So if we go to 15 that drawing, can we blow up the thing at the top? 16 MR. APPEL: Okay. 17 MS. PAUL: Is that -- yeah. So if you 18 go -- is that an access road, the little brown line 19 over there? 20 MR. APPEL: This one here (indicating)? 21 MS. PAUL: Yeah. What is that? 22 MR. APPEL: I believe -- I believe 23 that's an emergency -- it's emergency access. 24 MS. PAUL: Okay, so my house is right 25 across from that.