April 30, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM Page 45 to 48 of 116 12 of 48 sheets 45 mass, if you recall?1 Yeah.2 A. So in other words, if we have a larger edge or3 Q. dominant edge will we expect to see a greater alien root4 mass and less water retention over time?5 And also greater erosion. Know one, you know,6 A. there are engineers who use numbers, this site is going7 to hold this much, shed that much water, those numbers8 change once you're down the road as alien species become9 the dominant vegetation. Those numbers are going to10 change and the soils are going to hold less water. It's11 going to get more compact, it's going to go dryer more12 of the time and dry soil takes a long time to get wet.13 It's hydrophobic, which means it doesn't like water. It14 rains and if it is dry it stays dry for a really long15 time and all water is surface runoff until it starts to16 get wet. Think of putting Nestle's chocolate in milk,17 it takes a long time to stir and takes a long time to18 get wet, that's what a dried out forest is like that19 doesn't accept the water right away because it is to dry20 and so that means there's more runoff.21 MR. AFRAN: Thank you. That covered my22 supplemental questions.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.24 THE PUBLIC: Rachel Klein, Howell Drive.25 46 So is there any method of deer fencing1 create a core forest?2 THE WITNESS: No. As I said, deer fencing3 has nothing do with core forest. Deer fencing has to do4 with the plant community in the understory that if you5 are trying to protect some native wild flowers and6 shrubs and eventually tree regeneration 100 years down,7 but not core forest environment conditions.8 THE PUBLIC: Hi. Ellen Hare and thank you9 for your presentation. I just have one question, I am10 new to this whole development plan and I just want some11 clarity. When I look at the map and I see the bright12 red territory, am I correct in assuming that, that is13 all deforested?14 THE WITNESS: That was taken right from the15 site plan of the limit of disturbance, so, yes. That's16 -- everything is converted to non forest.17 THE PUBLIC: So it's either one of four18 buildings or pavement or cement?19 THE WITNESS: Grass perhaps and beds, flower20 beds and buildings and pavement and sidewalks and21 whatever.22 THE PUBLIC: And does any of that edge of23 the red go further than 300 feet of those property lines24 in the Highlands?25 47 THE WITNESS:

eds and buildings and pavement and sidewalks and21 whatever.22 THE PUBLIC: And does any of that edge of23 the red go further than 300 feet of those property lines24 in the Highlands?25 47 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what you're1 asking me. Let me just go to this.2 THE PUBLIC: Might not have an answer.3 MR. PLOCKER: I'm going to object. As a4 layperson you can see that there's a portion of red in5 an area where there's zero building development. That's6 why I just -- there is a site plan that can be viewed7 but we're not doing testimony on that tonight.8 MR. AFRAN: Well, if it's so obvious to9 everybody what's the harm in talking about it.10 MR. PLOCKER: You can talk about anything11 you want, I'm enjoying that actually.12 THE PUBLIC: I'm asking how it's going to13 affect the community and that's why everyone's here.14 Thank you.15 THE WITNESS: As far as I know the red is16 the limit of disturbance, which means there's no forest17 area. Can't put back forest, it's not possible. You18 can plant trees, you can make a plantation, you can19 plant shrubs, you can do whatever, you can't make a20 forest. That soils thousands of years old and we don't21 know how to put it back.22 THE PUBLIC: Eric Henry.23 So the 300 foot border, that's an estimate,24 right?25 48 THE WITNESS: Yeah. That's the estimate1 that's used for this type of forest in the issue of2 forest fragmentation and forest interior and that whole3 science of fragmentation.4 THE PUBLIC: Okay.5 So in theory it could be more than 300 feet?6 THE WITNESS: Well --7 THE PUBLIC: I mean, if it's an estimate.8 THE WITNESS: It could be an estimate used,9 that's not what evidence shows. You go to the forest,10 once you get 300 feet from the edge you start seeing11 typical interior forest conditions. That's how we come12 up with that number, surveying forest after forest,13 after forest.14 THE PUBLIC: But in theory it could be a15 little more, it could be a little less?16 THE WITNESS: Yes.17 THE PUBLIC: If it's a little bit more how18 much do we have left, like 99 acres?19 THE WITNESS: Let's suppose this was some20 type of other kind of forest, perhaps the Olympic Rain21 Forest on the West Coast where the number that you would22 use is much bigger, so then you would say, when you have23 a patch of forest this size there's no core forest24 because nowhere are you far enough from the edge. If25

13 of 48 sheets Page 49 to 52 of 116 05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM 49 you are in the Pine Barrens of New Jersey where the edge1 affect is smaller then you would have more core forest.2 But what we're using here is the number that's applied3 to the institute.4 THE PUBLIC: Makes sense. If it is an5 estimate, in theory you would use lose a little bit more6 than what we estimated, am I wrong there? If it's an7 estimate you would lose more.8 So if the estimate of my 300 number is inaccurate9 A. and let's say it's 500, then there is no core forest.10 If it's 150 then there's more core forest. I'm using11 the best number --12 THE PUBLIC: I understand.13 THE WITNESS: Your using science, it's an14 estimate but it's an estimate in theory. My point is15 you could lose a little bit more than that and it's gone16 and you can't get it back and that's it. Gone.17 THE WITNESS: Well, the amount that's left18 already can't support anything.19 THE PUBLIC: Exactly.20 And another question, the deer in there, I21 mean the deer fence, are we keeping them out or are we22 keeping them in and how many acres does it, does it take23 to support the deer?24 THE WITNESS: From what I understand the25 50 proposal to put up the deer fence is to help with the1 regeneration of plants on the ground where the deer feed2 and lots of people put up deer fencing.3 MS. MCGOVERN: You have to wait until the4 answers finished. The court reporter has to take down5 what you're saying.6 THE PUBLIC: Sure.7 THE WITNESS: Lots of people put up deer8 fences because they want to see results on the forest9 flora by keeping the deer out from browsing everything10 in sight every winter and deer fences work. They do a11 certain thing, but I'm not talking about what deer12 fences do or don't do. I'm talking about what land13 development and the taking away of forest and the14 creation the edge does, which has nothing to do with the15 deer.16 THE PUBLIC: Okay. Thank you.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Please step up to the mic.18 State your name, sir.19 THE PUBLIC: Orin Knights.20 Thank you, Dr. DeVito for being here today.21 I have two questions to ask.22 First question is regarding the forest core.23 I am not sure exactly the approximate size of that area24 but my understanding is that approximately about 5,00025 51 trees are going to be cut down. So if 5,000 trees are1 cut down is that still considered core forest in that2 space?

ate size of that area24 but my understanding is that approximately about 5,00025 51 trees are going to be cut down. So if 5,000 trees are1 cut down is that still considered core forest in that2 space? Would that still be considered core forest.3 THE WITNESS: It doesn't matter how many4 trees are cut down. When the canopy -- it doesn't5 matter if they were 200 gigantic eight-foot, you know,6 diameter trees that are 400 years old or if they were7 8,000 little trees that are this big. When you take8 away the forest canopy you lose the forest conditions.9 So the development is going to wipe the slate clean.10 They might replant some trees, they might leave a patch11 of trees here or there, but it doesn't matter because12 the development envelope, the limit of disturbance is13 taking away the forest forever and then all you have to14 do is, after that, is look at what forest remains and15 talk about the conditions in that forest. I am,16 everything I have said tonight has nothing to do with17 how many trees they're going to remove, all it has to do18 with is the shape of the patch of forest that is not19 harmed and what happens to that, right. Most of that20 turns from core forest into the edge forest and the edge21 forest doesn't support the lesser, the more uncommon22 species that one would hope that the City of West Orange23 is trying to, you know, keep on the landscape.24 THE PUBLIC: And my second question is, in25 52 regards to the concern for flooding, if that area is1 disturbed, development, how much affect would it have on2 the forest edge? You mentioned about the retention of3 water, would it be -- would it impact, as far as,4 especially downhill because you don't have any5 disturbing the top from the west down, would the forest6 edge be able to contain that type of --7 THE WITNESS: So the only thing, I am not an8 engineer and I don't do stormwater calculations and9 there is going to be other people that testify to that,10 I believe. But the only thing that I can say is that11 the edge forest being more exposed to sunlight and more12 exposed to wind, the soils going to dry out more quickly13 in any given time period. And when it's dry it's going14 to be less accepting of a rainstorm. If a rainstorm,15 you've seen it all in your yard, if a rain comes gently,16 starts slowly, the ground gets wet and the soil17 particles and then absorbs water and water can

accepting of a rainstorm. If a rainstorm,15 you've seen it all in your yard, if a rain comes gently,16 starts slowly, the ground gets wet and the soil17 particles and then absorbs water and water can seep in.18 If the rain comes fast, a big summer thunderstorm, this19 thunderstorm is sometimes over and the ground has barely20 had a chance to accept any of that water, it all runs21 off as surface flooding. It depends on if you have22 sheet flow across the surface or if you have water23 percolating down into the soil and if the soil starts24 out dry, it's not going to absorb a lot of water. On25

05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM Page 53 to 56 of 116 14 of 48 sheets 53 the other hand if the soils already wet, we had giant1 floods in New Jersey a couple years ago because we had2 back to back to back heavy storms, so eventually the3 soil gets saturated, when the soil is saturated already4 it might as well be rooftop because it can't hold5 anymore water and if the soils to wet it can't hold any6 water, it only absorbs water when it's in that middle7 range where there's space between all the soil particles8 for water to go, but not so dry that it sheds water.9 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.10 THE PUBLIC: Hello. Faith Singelis. Thank11 you for coming, Dr. DeVito. I have two questions. One12 related to what the gentleman before me just asked and13 one about the watershed.14 So this forest, I believe, sits sort of15 saddling two watersheds and there's creeks that run off.16 Can you just speak to from you profession as a forest17 ecologist how diminishing that forest or getting rid of18 that forest might affect the watershed, how many gallons19 of water?20 THE WITNESS: I really can't. I am not, I21 believe that most of this property is in the Canoe Brook22 Watershed, I guess a couple separate streams.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I am going to stop you24 right there.25 54 THE WITNESS: This is not my field.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You didn't testify to2 that. He said he's not qualified. Ask another3 question, please.4 THE PUBLIC: That's fine.5 So just in general, how would you describe6 the State of new Jersey as opposed to our state of core7 forests remaining and how threatened are those areas8 from invasive species?9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay, I'm sorry, this is10 not about -- we really want to focus on this area. Can11 you ask another question. He didn't testify to that.12 THE PUBLIC: Okay. I have to think about13 how to rephrase my question.14 Can you just speak a little bit about15 invasive species and how this development might impact16 what is already happening in West Orange and greater New17 Jersey?18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm sorry.19 THE WITNESS: I didn't testify to that.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Stop. Stop. He didn't21 testify to this. Focus on West Orange.22 THE WITNESS: I will talk about this --23 MR. AFRAN: Can I make one point. He did24 address the notion that special concerns, for example,25 55 are declining. The witness did address the notion of1 special concerns declining throughout New

23 MR. AFRAN: Can I make one point. He did24 address the notion that special concerns, for example,25 55 are declining. The witness did address the notion of1 special concerns declining throughout New Jersey and2 then a follow-up said, why is that and the witness said,3 Dr. DeVito said because the fragmentation of forests.4 So he did get into this in his direct testimony. I5 wanted to point that out to you.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Very specifically about7 this project, that's what the Planning Board want's to8 hear, about this project and we want to focus on this9 project. So if you want to testify because you have10 direct knowledge of invasive species, go right ahead.11 Invasive species in other towns or the State of New12 Jersey, that's for another fight. We have to discuss13 what's on this lot.14 MR. AFRAN: Invasive species are not unique15 to West Orange life history no matter what town --16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: This application is in17 West Orange and that's what the Planning Board needs to18 hear. You want to testify to that because that's your19 direct knowledge, that would be fantastic.20 THE WITNESS: I think I can say one thing21 that bears on this, which is simply that this forest is22 on soil that has never been disturbed by agriculture and23 therefore it's somewhat resistant to invasive species24 because the root mass, the soil layers that have built25 56 up over thousands of years, the organic layer, the layer1 that rainwater leaches nutrients and then pods even2 deeper, those things have an impact since the end of the3 Ice Age because there's never been a plow on that4 mountain because it wasn't good for agriculture and so5 those soils are resistant to invasive species because of6 the low pH the low nutrients and they don't attract7 invasive species, which is more or less species that8 like gardens and farms, disturb ground and all the9 things that people do, right. So this forest has been10 logged many times. You're right, it's not a virgin11 forest, the colonists came here, cut down and cut down12 again, cut down again, probably hasn't been cut down13 since around World War 1 or something. And so -- and14 the soils have never been disturbed appreciably and so15 it's resistant to invasive species.16 THE PUBLIC: And how long does it take to17 create soil?18 THE WITNESS: I don't know. To long.19 THE PUBLIC: Hundreds of years. Thank you.20 THE WITNESS:

and so15 it's resistant to invasive species.16 THE PUBLIC: And how long does it take to17 create soil?18 THE WITNESS: I don't know. To long.19 THE PUBLIC: Hundreds of years. Thank you.20 THE WITNESS: Thank you.21 THE PUBLIC: Good evening. Margaret22 Cunningham and thank you Dr. DeVito for coming.23 My question is, can you clarify the24 difference between canopy, the core, because it seems25

15 of 48 sheets Page 57 to 60 of 116 05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM 57 like we had discussion on how many trees will get cut1 down and that doesn't matter because the canopy?2 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I can do that. I am not3 talking about the places where trees are going to be cut4 down. I am only talking about the places where5 development is not going to occur, right. It's a forest6 now and it's still going to be a forest. The problem is7 because of the proximity of the development what remains8 is going to have very little core forest because the9 conditions that a forest creates by having a canopy,10 cool and green and shady, are impacted by the11 development all around the edges. And so you lose the12 core forest conditions within 300 feet in general in13 this type of forest. You lose those forest conditions14 within 300 feet of the edge. There's already an edge15 where all those houses are that have been built ages16 ago, right. They have already long been impacting that17 forest, but the interior is still good. And this18 development is going right in the interior and that's19 going to repeat that process and then the only thing20 that's left as core forest are those two little tiny21 purple outlined areas, magenta outlined areas.22 THE PUBLIC: And that does not consider --23 those two areas are really not canopy. They don't --24 THE WITNESS: No, no, they're going to have25 58 their forest canopy, but the only reason, the only1 reason they're still acting as interior core forest is2 because they're far away from disturbance.3 THE PUBLIC: But there are nine acres?4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, that's right. All5 together.6 THE PUBLIC: Good evening. Susan Pannullo.7 And thank you very much Dr. DeVito for coming here and8 educating us.9 I have a few questions, I guess pinging off10 the 300 foot estimate concept for this particular11 development. So assuming that 300 foot is flat then how12 is the 300 foot estimate impacted by the steep slope13 terrain?14 THE WITNESS: It's not.15 THE PUBLIC: Okay. Thank you.16 How about wetlands?17 THE WITNESS: It's not.18 THE PUBLIC: And does the salt bedrock19 matter?20 THE WITNESS: That -- no. This, this is an21 upland fairly dry soil because it's a thin soil on that22 bedrock, only hickory forest and that's the kind of23 forest that I'm using that 300 foot number. It doesn't24 matter if the soil was slightly different, whether it25 59 was

it's a thin soil on that22 bedrock, only hickory forest and that's the kind of23 forest that I'm using that 300 foot number. It doesn't24 matter if the soil was slightly different, whether it25 59 was still a very dry, thin soil, could be on different1 type of mountain in New Jersey, they're all different2 mountains in New Jersey but the forest is basically the3 same, right. Oak, hickory, dry soil somewhat, you know,4 this forest doesn't have any steep north facing slopes5 where you would get hemlocks and sugar maples and things6 like that. It's basically all sunny dry mountain top7 and that's the number I'm using. And that could be the8 salt, it could be metamorphic rock, this is igneous9 rock, it could be metamorphic rock in the islands of New10 Jersey. You can't tell the difference between those11 forests because since the Ice Age they have built up12 soil and that soil is pretty much the same. The bedrock13 is largely irrelevant at that point.14 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.15 THE PUBLIC: Michael Heningburd,16 H-E-N-I-N-G-B-U-R-D.17 You mentioned a term I never heard before,18 you talked about, you mentioned the term called a dry19 forest. I have not heard that term before and you20 talked about that being exacerbated by this development21 and in particular going directly around the development22 on the side of the mountain.23 THE WITNESS: So every forest runs along a24 continuum from very dry soil to very wet soils. The25 60 very wet soils are your loam land swamps where the water1 soils almost always saturated. The very dry forests and2 slopes that face south into the sunlight like some of3 the Watchung Ridge, you know, there's a slope that sun4 is almost hitting perpendicular, those tend to be very5 dry slopes because they're on hard bedrock of various6 types of soil, it's not very thick, it dries out very7 quickly. So here what you have is a ridge top which8 also has very thin soil, it dries out quickly and in9 droughts can get very dry and there, you know, I said a10 dry forest, if I was speaking to a scientific audience I11 would say a xeric forest. Some people, you've heard the12 word, xeriscapes, something like that, where they say13 let's plant species in your yard that are tolerant, they14 don't need to be watered, right. Because they like,15 they can do well in a dry landscape. So, you know, you16 could say nesic, which is wet, and xeric, which is