April 30, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

in your yard that are tolerant, they14 don't need to be watered, right. Because they like,15 they can do well in a dry landscape. So, you know, you16 could say nesic, which is wet, and xeric, which is dry.17 You can use the word dry, so we don't confuse people.18 THE PUBLIC: The reason I'm asking is I am19 very concerned about wildfires and curious whether what20 they're doing here is going to exacerbate the dry forest21 and perhaps make it more susceptible to wildfire, which22 we are experiencing in New Jersey all over?23 THE WITNESS: These forests generally are24 not susceptible to forest fires. They become25

05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM Page 61 to 64 of 116 16 of 48 sheets 61 susceptible during extreme droughts like we had last1 fall. We had some wildfires in north Jersey recently2 during the extreme droughts. I doubt that, you know,3 this, this forest, the proposed development is not going4 to change whether or not the wildfire risk goes up, you5 know, that much more quickly. The problem here is that6 by having development in the middle of the forest and,7 you know, you can't defend that development from a8 wildfire, right.9 THE PUBLIC: I don't think so.10 THE WITNESS: If a wildfire starts on the11 western end of this forest during the drought, winds are12 blowing 60 miles an hour, like we saw is in the Pine13 Barrens the other day, no fireman in the world can stop14 a wildfire when the winds are blowing fast, but that's,15 that's not going to change. I mean, those folks that16 are on the eastern side of this patch of forest are as17 much at risk now as they will be because if the winds18 blowing strong enough you can't stop a wildfire. That's19 a fallacy to think that people can stop a wildfire. You20 just saw California, they couldn't do anything when the21 winds are blowing strong enough, you can't do anything.22 And that is caused by extreme drought conditions, it's23 not going to be impacted by whether or not there's a24 couple buildings up there.25 62 THE PUBLIC: Okay. Thank you.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.2 Any other members of the public have any3 questions for Dr. DeVito about his testimony. Please4 stand up.5 MR. AFRAN: I have one follow-up, if I can.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Final question, sir.7 One of the questions the public asked was whether8 Q. there's a canopy on the edge as well as the core and you9 said, you know, any forest has a canopy. But you also10 said earlier the core canopy help create the core11 conditions. Is there a distinction between the canopy12 on the edge and the canopy in the core?13 THE WITNESS: The distinction is that on the14 edge you have sunlight and wind coming in, so the canopy15 is not affected in creating those interior conditions16 because you need that, you need that forest that's17 protected from wind and sunlight to have that high18 humidity and low temperature maintain itself during the19 course of the day. On the edge you lose humidity that20 you accumulated over the night, right. In the morning21 you get up and there's a

igh18 humidity and low temperature maintain itself during the19 course of the day. On the edge you lose humidity that20 you accumulated over the night, right. In the morning21 you get up and there's a dew and it's moist and you're22 on the edge, that evaporates in no time. When you're23 deep in the forest those conditions stay for hours on24 end, you have much more moist conditions. There's less25 63 wind, you know, if you want to cool off in the summer1 you go into the middle of a forest.2 MR. AFRAN: Thank you.3 That's all I have.4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Klein.5 MR. KLEIN: So you said it's 300 feet the6 edge all the way around for this particular --7 THE WITNESS: Yes.8 MR. KLEIN: Can you -- could you have9 surveyed it and actually found the edge? In other10 words, on the shady side it's still 300 feet, on the11 side it's still 300 feet. It's really just 300 feet?12 THE WITNESS: No, if you were to go and look13 at the slope and at that particular spot, you know, you14 could adjust things here or there. But I mean, so some15 places the edge would be a little bit -- you would say16 well, this is going to create an edge even more over17 here and some other place you might say it's going to18 create a little less like on the north side.19 MR. KLEIN: So you're saying it's like an20 average?21 THE WITNESS: It's like an average, yeah.22 MR. KLEIN: You mentioned something about23 logging on this property. Did you say logging on this24 property?25 64 THE WITNESS: The forest is about 120 years1 old, these mountains had no trees on them in the middle2 of the 1800's, everything was cut for firewood. People3 had to cook.4 MR. KLEIN: It was cut but the soil wasn't5 disturbed?6 THE WITNESS: No, cut. Our forest has been7 cut over many times.8 MR. KLEIN: And that doesn't disturb the9 soil?10 THE WITNESS: Not much. They came, they cut11 all the timber, they dragged it off. They were never12 plowed. The soil horizons going down were never13 disturbed.14 MR. KLEIN: When the tree falls and they15 drag a tree that's similar to plowing?16 THE WITNESS: Well, they didn't drag the17 root stumps. They cut the trees and dragged the trees18 and that only touches organic matter at the surface. It19 doesn't turn over the soil. Now, the trees blow over in20 a wind storm and you see, you know, you can see what21 happens and what happens is they move very slowly and22 that impacts the soil

ace. It19 doesn't turn over the soil. Now, the trees blow over in20 a wind storm and you see, you know, you can see what21 happens and what happens is they move very slowly and22 that impacts the soil horizons a little bit over the23 course of centuries, but that's, you know, minute24 compared to the whole area.25

17 of 48 sheets Page 65 to 68 of 116 05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM 65 MR. KLEIN: Okay.1 And then you talked about the alien species,2 the weeds. They're bad, always bad?3 THE WITNESS: Good and bad. Good and bad4 aren't good words.5 MR. KLEIN: Beneficial and not beneficial?6 THE WITNESS: Alien species are almost never7 beneficial. Now, that's not a hard and fast rule, we8 have Russian olive growing up in all our farm fields in9 northern New Jersey and it's terrible, it makes10 monocultures, it doesn't let any other species in but11 hummingbirds because they feed on the flowers when they12 get here. You know, they just got here last week and13 they're feeding on the flowers. So it's good for one14 little thing but by enlarge it's, it's stopping hundreds15 of species, moths, butterflies food chain. There are no16 insects eating the leaves and so there's no food chain.17 That's one of the reasons that critters disappear is18 that in the edge you have all these alien species and19 they don't have any insects living on them so their food20 chain is gone.21 MR. KLEIN: That's it.22 Thank you.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Thank you very24 much.25 66 MR. PLOCKER: I have one question.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker.2 MR. PLOCKER: Mr. DeVito, and I'll qualify3 my question, because I appreciate you did qualify before4 that you are not a professional engineer, but you did5 give some general testimony about storm -- storms and6 water. Not being an engineer, is it fair to say that in7 your testimony you did not consider the stormwater8 design plan that's a part of this application, which has9 already been approved by the DEP?10 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't do that. All I11 did was talk about, I mean I've done a million soil12 picks and talking about whether or not soils can absorb13 water when they're wet, when they're dry, you know, in14 the forest. I'm not talking about their engineering15 plans.16 MR. PLOCKER: Okay. Thank you.17 MR. AFRAN: And is it fair to say what you18 discussed, in terms of dry soil, water runoff and19 flooding, etc., is within the scope of your expertise as20 a forester and forest recovery?21 THE WITNESS: Yes.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.23 Thank you, Dr. DeVito.24 MR. FAGAN: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to say25 67 several people in the zoom audience raised their hand1 and I would like to make an announcement that we are not2 entertaining public comment from the zoom

MR. FAGAN: Mr. Chairman, I'd like to say25 67 several people in the zoom audience raised their hand1 and I would like to make an announcement that we are not2 entertaining public comment from the zoom audience.3 Thank you.4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran, we're going to5 take a five-minute break.6 (Whereupon, a short recess is taken.)7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. Welcome back8 ladies and gentlemen on zoom, members of the audience.9 Mr. Afran, you have the floor, sir.10 MR. AFRAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.11 Our next witness and the only other witness12 for this evening is Professor Luke Butler from the13 College of New Jersey and he's going to speak to, he is14 an expert in -- he's an avian zoologist and an avian15 biologist who focuses on the physiological and16 biological aspects of avian life, particularly with17 respect to the effects of human disturbance. So he is18 going to speak to these issues and so I can now call Dr.19 Butler.20 MS. MCGOVERN: What's the first name?21 MR. AFRAN: Luke, L-U-K-E. Butler.22 MS. MCGOVERN: Okay.23 Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth the24 whole truth nothing but the truth.25 68 THE WITNESS: I do.1 MS. MCGOVERN: State you name and spell it,2 please.3 THE WITNESS: Luke, L-U-K-E. Butler,4 B-U-T-L-E-R.5 L U K E B U T L E R, having been duly sworn6 under oath according to law testifies as follows:7 Thank you.8 Q. I understand you're a PhD in zoology?9 Yes. From the University of Washington in10 A. Seattle.11 And when you did get your PhD?12 Q. 2005.13 A. And you're presently on the faculty of The14 Q. College of New Jersey, is that correct?15 Correct. The department of biology.16 A. And how would you describe the area of expertise17 Q. that you're bringing to this meeting tonight?18 So I'm called what's called an avian biologist19 A. and I have specific expertise in avian life history,20 which is different stages of life that birds exhibit at21 different times of the year and in particular the22 behavior and physiology of birds in particular, you23 know, more particular I've conducted multiple studies on24 the human disturbance on bird behavior.25

05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM Page 69 to 72 of 116 18 of 48 sheets 69 And how long have you been on the faculty of The1 Q. College of New Jersey?2 16 years.3 A. And are you -- what's your rank?4 Q. Associate professor.5 A. Thank you.6 Q. MR. AFRAN: We offer Professor Butler for7 the purposes described.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Have you been to this9 forest?10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Well, not in it, but to11 it.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Surrounding it?13 THE WITNESS: Yes.14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So your testimony is from15 the periphery of the forest and mostly based on16 hypothesis of what is going on inside the forest?17 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah. I have18 observations of -- so I do know some things about what's19 going on and then I am also, I do have predictions I am20 going to make based on what I have seen, things that I21 had not, what would be seen if somebody were to do an22 extensive study.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: But you haven't done an24 extensive study?25 70 THE WITNESS: No.1 MR. AFRAN: The purpose of his testimony is2 to speak to the effect of human disturbance on an3 existing forest in terms of its relationship to the4 avian life that's typically seen in the forest. So that5 obviously one can't study the destructive effects until6 the documents developed and it's built but the purpose7 is to speak to what happens in the life cycles of these8 animals. In terms of human disturbance it's relevant9 for the need of an ecological study in the settlement10 agreement and the ordinance.11 MR. PLOCKER: Bruce, can you point to where12 there's a need for an ecological study?13 Sorry, Chairman.14 MR. AFRAN: The settlement agreement states15 that there shall be an environmental review conducted by16 William Defeo of this project and does not limit it in17 any way to any particular area of environmental impact.18 And therefore if the forest will disappear, as prior19 witnesses have said and made clear, then the impact on20 wildlife in that forest is obviously relevant to an21 environmental review that the settlement mandates.22 MR. PLOCKER: Okay. I believe that's taking23 a very bias view of the settlement agreement, Mr. Afran.24 MR. AFRAN: Mr. Plocker --25 71 MR. PLOCKER: I'm not done talking.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm2 going to ask, this is a colloquy between two attorneys.3 They're great advocates.4 One at a time gentlemen.5 Mr. Plocker.6 MR. PLOCKER: Just for the record,

CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm2 going to ask, this is a colloquy between two attorneys.3 They're great advocates.4 One at a time gentlemen.5 Mr. Plocker.6 MR. PLOCKER: Just for the record, there is7 nothing that requires an ecological study in the8 settlement agreement or ordinance.9 MR. AFRAN: I have the settlement agreement10 and it expressly requires an environmental review by Mr.11 Defeo. Does not limit it solely to the question of a12 deer fence. It requires an environmental review.13 Period. And those words are unequivocal and they are14 within the scope of what we're and what we're offering15 is within the scope of that.16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I'm trying to parse the17 language so the Board hears more, the public hears more18 information besides the trees are gone because19 something's built there and there would be less birds.20 MR. AFRAN: I'm not sure it would be that21 trivial a presentation.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: But if there are less23 trees there's probably less birds.24 MR. AFRAN: If you destroy forest you25 72 destroy the capacity of bird species to engage in formal1 life histories.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: As the expert said before,3 we're not talking destruction. Those aren't the words4 we're going to use, so there's going to be less core5 forest, using his words. Okay. So there's less volume6 of something where birds live. I'm not trying to7 overcome what's going on, I'm trying to have the Board8 understand the value of the information and the public9 the value of the information.10 MR. AFRAN: Well, you have two types of11 forest, forest edge and core. As the edge grows the12 types of species change and that was made clear by Mr.13 DeVito -- Dr. DeVito. So clearly when you can convert14 core to edge, which is what the prior witness spoke to,15 you're going to have species change and interchange.16 It's not just at matter of losing numbers, it's a matter17 of the environmental impact from this development that18 will cause this species interchange and changes in the19 nature of what lives here.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: And I think, the public21 will correct me if I am wrong, the public is interested22 in trees and I don't want to make less of the turtle, a23 snake or salamander, but as we look at this the Planning24 Board is looking at the effect of trees and carbon25

19 of 48 sheets Page 73 to 76 of 116 05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM 73 dioxide transference and I'm not arguing that's not an1 impact on other creatures, but the public that is in the2 room tonight, and I am sure online, are thinking more3 about trees. And I will allow this and we'll keep it4 slow and focused on this forest and things that will5 happen here and not vastly in the State of New Jersey,6 if you can.7 THE WITNESS: Sure. Absolutely.8 MR. AFRAN: Our intention was to focus on9 this forest, but obviously he has knowledge about10 eastern forests in New Jersey is how we focus that11 discussion.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, and we all agree.13 Let's proceed.14 MR. PLOCKER: Yeah. I would like to make15 the same statement I made last time. I believe this16 area of testimony, whatever it may be, it seems it would17 be of a subject matter that's outside the jurisdiction18 of this Board at a Planning Board hearing.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: I understand your20 objection. We'll hear it and at the end of everything21 you gentlemen will both have an opportunity to discuss22 that with the Board as we deliberate.23 MR. AFRAN: I do wish to apologize to my24 good friend Mr. Plocker for interrupting him. I was25 74 only going to say, of course both of us have different1 views of the document, that's our jobs, to present2 different views.3 MR. PLOCKER: That's all right. We'll bring4 the air-conditioning next time.5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Go right ahead.6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.7 Mr. Afran, the next time you ask me to do8 something like this I will not be following Dr. DeVito.9 I feel like a bit of an opening act right here now.10 Thank you so much. So what you'll see with what11 I have to say tonight, my scope of the content or topic12 that I am going to address about this parcel of land is13 much narrower than Dr. DeVito addressed. So, yeah,14 basically what I'm going to tell you about is what's on15 the title. So I observed the bird community at the wood16 lot, this parcel, and then I have some ideas and17 predictions about what the bird life is likely to be18 like throughout the, or different parts of the parcel19 and then I will give a little bit of a discussion on20 area sensitivity and what that looks like for birds and21 I am not going to present on any other type of animal22 tonight except birds. But what, very often things in23 one type of bird work similarly in other

itivity and what that looks like for birds and21 I am not going to present on any other type of animal22 tonight except birds. But what, very often things in23 one type of bird work similarly in other types of birds,24 so I am going to be talking about birds but the law and25 75 rules and kind of operate similarly across.1 So as I said, I'm going to talk about three2 things. I'm going talk about observation of a subset of3 bird life at the site.4 I'm going to give predictions about what I5 think overall bird life at the site is like and I am6 going to give predictions about the, how then proposed7 development will change the community at the site. And8 I will get more into the concept of a bird community in9 a minute.10 So just to let you know, going back to the11 Chairman's question about, did I conduct an extensive12 study. I did not. I visited the periphery of the site,13 I did not access the interior of the site. That yellow14 all around the screen shows places where I stood or15 walked and listened or looked for birds, for the amounts16 of time you see in those text boxes.17 MR. AFRAN: For the record, there's no page18 numbers, I don't mean to interrupt, we should keep track19 of this. This is a slide headed, Number One,20 Observation of A Subset of The Bird Life At The Site.21 MR. PLOCKER: Was this marked or submitted22 in advance?23 MR. AFRAN: It was submitted today and I24 understand that it's not marked. I understand there25 76 might be a need for the Board members to review this1 again and of course we would bring Mr. -- Professor2 Butler back if need be, but we should mark it as the3 next Objectors exhibit.4 MS. MCGOVERN: I think we're up to what,5 O-12?6 MR. AFRAN: Yeah, I don't know whether Dr.7 DeVito's was marked O-11. That was submitted a couple8 months ago.9 MR. PLOCKER: I think it was on the agenda,10 I don't know if it was marked on the agenda.11 MS. MCGOVERN: We marked the DeVito CV and12 color design by ecological Solutions, is that DeVito's?13 MR. AFRAN: That was one of the slides but14 then there was a ten slide set that had been submitted15 prior to the meeting.16 MR. PLOCKER: It's on there.17 MS. MCGOVERN: So DeVito CV was O-6. The18 color slide was O-7, but this ones definitely O-12.19 MR. AFRAN: We should make the ten set O-7A20 so we're clear.21 MR. PLOCKER: There is an item on the agenda22 Ms. McGovern, there is a slide show and