April 30, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

23 of 48 sheets Page 89 to 92 of 116 05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM 89 And I strongly believe all four of these species1 A. would breed in this parcel of land. Mostly, especially2 the top two and red eyed deer and a wood thrush,3 squirrel, good likelihood that, that would be the one I4 put on this list I was hoping to find there.5 So going back to the concept of like if you take6 away habitat you have fewer birds, that's not true.7 Some times you take away habitat you have more birds but8 you have birds that are there for the new habitat.9 So this is the data from the exact same study10 that I've been showing you and what you see as you11 shrink the size of the forest patch you get more and12 more American robins and you get the most American13 robins when the forest -- when there's little patches of14 woods for them to use, but they mostly hang out in open15 areas. So that's a native species. They, you know,16 they contribute to the function. But, you know, you17 like robins, they sound pretty, look pretty and, you18 know, ecologically they serve a function in the system19 that they're in.20 The other thing you do when you convert21 continuous habitat into habitat that's disturbing22 especially dominated by human development, is you tend23 to add numbers and the occurrence of exotic endangered24 species. So the example on the right here is European25 90 starling, you can see how much it protects large patches1 of forest. How much more likely it is to occur as the2 patches of forest get smaller and smaller. And as an3 example European starlings are a particular menace to4 native bird because they usurp from their canopy nest,5 they'll kill chicks, they'll destroy eggs, even kill6 adults if they can. So not only do they compete for7 space, directly compete for space, they directly also8 cause mortality in native species. So this is what --9 this is the birds you add when you take away forest10 space.11 And the threats aren't just to, as I mentioned a12 moment ago in terms of what European starlings tend to13 do to nesting birds, but it's not just a survival or14 longevity of adults or those types of aspects of the15 biology of the birds, but specifically within the16 nesting stage it's a very particular time of year among17 life history of all these different species and you can18 see wood thrush their nesting success drops to one in19 ten nests succeeds in a forest

sting stage it's a very particular time of year among17 life history of all these different species and you can18 see wood thrush their nesting success drops to one in19 ten nests succeeds in a forest patch that's about ten20 hectares, which is not that small of a forest patch21 actually. Forest patches that are about, probably left22 in the proposal around in this area of the scale and so23 it's not just direct mortality it can also be strong24 effects of other particular life history stages.25 91 MR. AFRAN: Can you identify, go back if you1 can, what was a hectare size, when you said the graph2 showed an analogy of what would be left here?3 THE WITNESS: This one? This one here?4 MR. AFRAN: In the last graph. The5 scattergram. Yes, you pointed to several dots and you6 said that's analogous to what would be left here. How7 many hectares on that scale were you referring to, acres8 or hectares were you referring to?9 MR. KLEIN: Four dots?10 MR. AFRAN: Yeah.11 THE WITNESS: Right. Sorry.12 MR. AFRAN: You circled the dots near the13 corner and said that's analogous to the size of this14 acreage. How does that translate into hectares so we15 can have a point of reference.16 THE WITNESS: So this is a long scale so17 it's a tricky to judge where we are because the18 intervals between 10 and 20 is about this big and the19 intervals between 20 and 30 is about that big and 40, 5020 and 60 is in here. So this is probably around 3021 hectares, which is a little smaller than the forest that22 would be left, I believe.23 MR. AFRAN: So you're saying 30 hectares24 equates to around 9 acres, is that what you're saying?25 92 In other words, first how many hectares equate to acres1 because most of us think in terms of acres.2 THE WITNESS: Two and half acres per3 hectare.4 MR. AFRAN: Okay. So when you speak of 305 hectares, are you referring to existing core forest or6 what are you referring to?7 THE WITNESS: Let's see. So I wrote that8 down. The core forest of -- oh, I'm sorry. So the9 total, the total habitat size of the plot is 143 acres,10 which is about 58 hectares. So around 60 hectares is11 about right here currently, so that's what's currently12 there and then after the development it drops to about13 45. So that would move to about here on the scale. So14 you'd have to scale the line to estimate what the change15 is. It's probably about a ten percent drop across

the development it drops to about13 45. So that would move to about here on the scale. So14 you'd have to scale the line to estimate what the change15 is. It's probably about a ten percent drop across the16 scale. Ten percent drop.17 MR. AFRAN: Are you referring to, when you18 say 45 hectares will be left after development, I want19 to be clear we're speaking along the same forest?20 THE WITNESS: That's total forest. Not21 just --22 MR. AFRAN: That's total forest?23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Yeah.24 MR. AFRAN: Okay.25

05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM Page 93 to 96 of 116 24 of 48 sheets 93 THE WITNESS: The core forest patches are1 much smaller.2 MR. AFRAN: That would be about three3 hectares?4 MS. MCGOVERN: How do you spell hectare?5 MR. AFRAN: H-E-C-T-A-R-E.6 So if 9 acres is around three hectares and7 what you're saying is left over of both edge and core8 after development is around 45 hectares?9 THE WITNESS: Yes.10 MR. AFRAN: Okay. I wanted that to be clear11 so we all understood.12 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's how I have --13 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you.14 MS. MCGOVERN: Thank you. Please continue.15 I mean, I think the take away from this is that's16 A. a very strong relationship, so, and it's a very straight17 relationship, so no matter where you are on that line18 you're going to have a drop in nesting success rate.19 This is just one aspect of one life history stage of20 this area.21 And then one other ecological process, ecological22 phenomenon that will occur the with proposed development23 is the increase occurrence of what's called,24 brown-headed cowbirds into much more of the forest at25 94 this site than probably are currently occurring. So1 brown-headed cowbirds have an interesting nuisance to2 humans, they are adaptive to following herds of wild,3 you know, wild underlance in the Midwest on the Great4 Plains, but as humans deforest the east coast they move5 to that open habitat and start parasitizing the nest of6 eastern deciduous forest birds which either dissipates7 that threat and their history or faced at a very low8 level. They're face at a very high level now and it's9 thought to be an important factor in the loss in the10 numbers of many bird species. And so cowbirds just love11 coming in on an edge, looking for nests that are near12 the edge of a patch of woods where woodland birds are13 nesting and the female scour around to find the nest of14 the host species and they sneak in eggs along with the15 host eggs, here's a couple of cowbird eggs here.16 They're specially adapted eggs, the shells are17 especially hard so they're hard to poke a hole in and18 throw out. The shells are also especially round,19 they're very difficult for the host to grasp and throw20 out and so what tends to happen is the host takes care21 of the young and it's often to the detriment of their22 own young. This is not a wood thrush, that's just for23 the record, it's a red-headed black bird.

what tends to happen is the host takes care21 of the young and it's often to the detriment of their22 own young. This is not a wood thrush, that's just for23 the record, it's a red-headed black bird. So good24 picture but cowbirds have a very big impact on song25 95 bird, in particular song bird reproductive system.1 When you take any kind of -- when you create edge2 you create a space for cowbirds. They're not a forest3 interior species, they are an edge and an open country4 species and if you cut a development right through that5 forest you're going to expose much more of that land to6 this change. Change in the ecology of the site.7 So just a quick summary. This is kind of for the8 record, the slides, just based on what I've seen and9 some of the basics of avian college in the eastern10 deciduous forest. The site appears to support migratory11 birds species that are very typical for the habit and12 the region. When I got there I didn't think there was13 any big surprises, but I do think it's a very healthy14 looking bird community, which matches the look of the15 site overall.16 And then in terms of the bird community will17 change with the proposed development. Area sensitive18 species, interior species are likely to be effected by19 the proposed development, the change in habitat and then20 the many well known edge effects on interior bird21 species are likely to increase. That will shift the22 bird community over time. It will take time, going back23 to what Dr. DeVito said about sort of the time scale24 which these events take place. You won't see it right25 96 away, but over time fewer of those species that are1 influenced here won't return to breed here and that will2 either be because they have low nest success or they3 face mortality and eventually that site will look like4 the bird community of all similar little patches of5 woods in this part of the state. That's what I have.6 MR. AFRAN: Thank you.7 Mr. Chairman, I have no -- I don't have any -- I8 don't have any additional questions for Dr. Butler.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mayor McCartney, do you10 have any questions?11 MAYOR McCARTNEY: I do not Chairman. Thank you.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Klein, do you have any13 questions of Mr. Butler's testimony?14 MR. KLEIN: No.15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Wilkes, do you have16 any questions for Dr. Butler on his testimony?17 MR. WILKES: No questions.18 CHAIRMAN

you have any13 questions of Mr. Butler's testimony?14 MR. KLEIN: No.15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Wilkes, do you have16 any questions for Dr. Butler on his testimony?17 MR. WILKES: No questions.18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Alper, do you have any19 questions for Dr. Butler?20 MR. ALPER: Sure.21 The interior wetlands that are on the site, I22 take it you couldn't see in the edges, but we know there23 are wetlands obviously. Are you able to predict a sense24 of what sort of species would probably be in those25

25 of 48 sheets Page 97 to 100 of 116 05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM 97 wetlands and whether after the development, obviously1 the wetlands can't be touched, but development in the2 area, would they stay or would they likely leave?3 THE WITNESS: Water thrush's are probably4 there and probably the swamp sparrows. Those are off5 the top of my head. The ones that, that I expect to see6 in that wetlands, water thrush's and swamp sparrows are7 two I can think of. Neither of which are endangered8 either.9 And then migratory birds are known to be10 attracted to water sources when migrating, so you might11 not see a change in the species that are using the site12 for breeding, but you might see an effect on the13 migrants using this site as a stopover site because as14 they're flying in so when the birds choose habitats they15 kind of do it hierarchically. They look for something16 of broad scale, especially if they're migrating a couple17 thousand feet up in the air. As they're looking and18 using visual cues to decide where to land and if they're19 able to make a decision not just running out of fuel.20 But once do they get into a parcel of land to refuel and21 regain water then they move around the habitat and they22 try to find the resources they need. So they're very23 migratory birds and are very good at finding water they24 need to refresh their water source. So that would be25 98 the effect that would be difficult to detect. You have1 to be watching that specific microhabitat during2 migration on the morning the migrating birds landing,3 they migrate at night, and look to see. Yeah, but you4 can -- there's ways to do it. You can also set up nets5 and do surveys by capturing them as they come through.6 MR. ALPER: And across the whole site of the7 development is there anything that can be done to8 ameliorate the change of the bird species?9 THE WITNESS: Like if the development were10 to go in, sure. If you had people pulling out nonnative11 species that are going to invade which is a very large12 lift logistically, that's a bad pun. Very large lift13 that would probably help. Because a lot of these14 species provide food sources for migratory birds. Other15 than that, it's really hard to -- its really hard to16 overcome a loss of space.17 One other note, going back to these graphs18 to kind of point to that. So the relationship here is a19 very strong relationship

it's really hard to -- its really hard to16 overcome a loss of space.17 One other note, going back to these graphs18 to kind of point to that. So the relationship here is a19 very strong relationship across these forest species as20 you get, as you get -- as you create parcels of land21 below certain sizes the numbers of birds just drop-off22 and this is a large study, a large sample done over five23 years at almost 500 sample sites. It's a very robust24 data set, and what it's showing is that there's just a25 99 amount of space that's very strong and slender for what1 happens to the organisms that are there. Other things2 that matter are the habitat quality within the state and3 typical resources, like water, and on a microscale these4 things do matter and that's why there is uncertainty,5 especially in smaller spaces. You see how the certainty6 bars, which are sort of the dashed lines that are7 flanking the centerline, they're much bigger and smaller8 patches. You get smaller patches so the species occurs9 there but many small patches just through the random10 sampling aren't going to handle the creature. Whereas11 if you get a big enough site there's a certainty that12 you're going to find those species there in many or some13 spaces because big sites have everything they need.14 MR. AFRAN: For the record, Professor Butler15 was using the slide with the four graphs. Four species16 next to each other.17 MR. ALPER: Thank you.18 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ms. Kapferer, any19 questions for Professor Butler on his testimony?20 MS. KAPFERER: I don't have any questions.21 MR. KLEIN: Mr. Chairman.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Klein.23 MR. KLEIN: Have you ever testified as an24 expert for a development?25 100 THE WITNESS: I have never been asked.1 MR. KLEIN: Have you ever testified before2 as an objector, before tonight?3 THE WITNESS: Where?4 MR. KLEIN: For another site plan5 application.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: And Planning Board or7 Zoning Board?8 MR. KLEIN: Anywhere in New Jersey.9 THE WITNESS: Yeah, they tried to put a10 parking lot right next to my house in Pennsylvania.11 MR. KLEIN: Any other in New Jersey?12 THE WITNESS: No. Not in New Jersey, no.13 MR. KLEIN: So this is the first time you14 are testifying as an expert in this -- for an objector?15 THE WITNESS: Yes.16 MR. KLEIN: Okay. Thanks.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Are these birds presently18 on this site?19 THE WITNESS: The only

t time you14 are testifying as an expert in this -- for an objector?15 THE WITNESS: Yes.16 MR. KLEIN: Okay. Thanks.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Are these birds presently18 on this site?19 THE WITNESS: The only -- I didn't detect20 any of those.21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So it's a hypothesis that22 they're there? You didn't detect them in your two hours23 limited time, limited space, but in two hours you24 observed 20 other species, you did not observe any of25

05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM Page 101 to 104 of 116 26 of 48 sheets 101 these four?1 THE WITNESS: No.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.3 Is there a -- is there any cowbirds in the4 forest presently that you observed?5 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I saw them at a couple6 of my observation points, yes.7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.8 Mr. MacNeill, do you have any questions?9 THE WITNESS: Can I follow up to your10 question. It's not time appropriate for these species11 to be there right now. So I may not have detected12 doesn't mean they won't be there next month. So I13 wouldn't have necessarily -- if you asked me if I14 predicted ahead of time, I would just say I saw my first15 wood thrush in central New Jersey yesterday. I haven't16 heard any other birds, they're not back yet.17 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: It's possible?18 THE WITNESS: It's not really a hypothesis19 that they're there. I wouldn't hypothesis that they20 should be there right now. Yet six weeks if I were to21 survey a bunch of times and still not detect them, then22 it would be a hypothesis that they're in there. Right23 now it's not even about a hypothesis because they24 shouldn't be there.25 102 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Fair enough.1 MR. AFRAN: Can I follow up with one2 question.3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes.4 MR. AFRAN: Is it fair to say that these5 four species are commonly found in eastern forests in6 New Jersey?7 THE WITNESS: Yes.8 MR. AFRAN: Deciduous forests?9 THE WITNESS: Yes. The right size forest,10 yes.11 MR. AFRAN: You're not hypothesizing, these12 are normally available in our forests when they're13 there?14 THE WITNESS: Yes.15 MR. AFRAN: Thank you. You answered my16 question. Thank you.17 THE WITNESS: I studied other birds in Pine18 Barrens and they're very well-known and I do lots of,19 like I said earlier, I do lots of bird surveys with20 students, adult learners in central New Jersey almost21 half a year but in the right patch of habitat you can22 find all these.23 MR. AFRAN: And so in an eastern deciduous24 forest in New Jersey would you except to typically see25 103 these four species for example at the correct time of1 year?2 THE WITNESS: Correct time of year and3 correct size, yeah, for sure. I would take courses to4 certain patches of habitat on the hope of being able to5 see some of these. I drag 20 people with me to do that.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.7 Mr. Haizel, do you have any questions -- I'm8 sorry. Mr. MacNeill.9 MR.