April 30, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

s of habitat on the hope of being able to5 see some of these. I drag 20 people with me to do that.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.7 Mr. Haizel, do you have any questions -- I'm8 sorry. Mr. MacNeill.9 MR. MacNEILL: Were any of those species10 that you observed listed as endangered or threatened?11 THE WITNESS: No. I mean, the ones that I12 saw, no, they're not. But, again, it's very difficult13 to observe endangered species even if I had 200 hours of14 observation time, unless I'm in the exact place that15 endangered species just settled. So I mean, of the 20 I16 did observe directly, probably the worm-eating warbler17 is the forest species that's also a migrant. Long18 distance migrant and it's not in any peril or anything19 like that, but that's an example of a species where it20 depends on lots of different parts of the planet. Lots21 of different parts of the continent in order to live22 throughout it's annual cycle and if they don't have the23 habitat at the particular time when they're there to24 breed or they don't have their stopover sites, which I25 104 think the one I saw was probably stopping over, then1 their numbers as a species will go down.2 MR. MacNeill: Thank you.3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Haizel.4 MR. HAIZEL: Yes, I do.5 What impact does events like extended6 periods of drought and things of that sort impact some7 of these numbers?8 THE WITNESS: What was the last part?9 MR. HAIZEL: How does it impact the10 population having like some of these events like11 extended periods of drought?12 THE WITNESS: So the answer to that depends13 on what you mean by extended period. If we're talking14 about like say one season drought like during the15 breeding season, the population might not be productive16 in that breeding season, so in particular during the17 nesting stage when young birds would be fed by the18 parents in dry years say when there's low insects,19 because insects feed on the plants that are there and20 the plants don't have enough water to grow leaves for21 those insects, so that could scale up to a lack of food22 that get's carried over to low productive success. That23 probably the proximal quickest scale that would be the24 first sign of something like that.25

27 of 48 sheets Page 105 to 108 of 116 05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM 105 MR. HAIZEL: It doesn't have the impact of1 like if you had such an event last year would you see a2 smaller population this year and it builds back up or --3 THE WITNESS: Again, depends on the scale.4 So, yeah, sure populations are resilient. Healthy5 populations. In otherwise stable environments they go6 through cycles of small increases in population size,7 small decreases, but they tend to be steady over time8 all things being equal. So a severe draught over many9 years could knock down the population for longer periods10 of time than one year or something like that.11 MR. HAIZEl: Thank you.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you, Dr. Butler.13 Any another questions?14 So you said the four birds in that grouping15 they're not there. How far do they fly normally? Where16 do they come from? Do they come from south Jersey,17 Canada, miles away, 20 miles?18 THE WITNESS: So you're quizzing me on my19 memory of wintering range maps. As far as these four20 species, I don't distinctly remember all of them, but21 the short brief answer, first answer is it varies. So22 they don't all winter in very narrow latitudes to the23 south. For example hummingbirds winter, I believe, from24 central Mexico to northern South America. So they have25 106 very large wintering distributions and I think similar1 for the other three species.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Next question is, if this3 project goes through and the decrease in the forest4 would they find other areas of Essex County, even in5 West Orange, South Mountain Reservation to populate?6 THE WITNESS: The loss of habitat will just7 lower the carrying capacity of whatever area you want to8 judge. So if you want to expand to include what other9 sites you're thinking of then just add that land mass10 together and count up all the birds that could be there11 and just take out the chunk that you have gotten rid of.12 You're at least going to lose that much. So what birds13 do, and Dr. DeVito talked a little bit about this, the14 breeding season they almost all defend territories. So15 they control exclusive space from each other. So you16 can't just say, here, we're going to give you guys five17 acres of really good habitat and you're going to have18 the same number you would have in a ten acre habitat.19 You might get that result but more likely a couple20 individuals are

ive you guys five17 acres of really good habitat and you're going to have18 the same number you would have in a ten acre habitat.19 You might get that result but more likely a couple20 individuals are going to control a lot of that21 proportion. The others are going to have to go22 someplace else. So what happens in the habitat quality23 is the owners tend to win. So if you are given24 precedence on a site and you're the first male to that25 107 area and start singing, looking around like it's yours,1 when the next male that comes in to challenge you the2 general rule is the owner tends to win. The challenger3 goes, oh, this is your's, I'm going to look down the4 road and what they do is they segregate into lower5 quality habitats and when birds can't obtain a habitat6 that's sufficient to support a nesting attempt they just7 give up and move on to the next life history stage.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.9 Mr. Afran, you want to say something.10 MR. AFRAN: Two quick questions.11 What happens to the breeding success if the pair12 Q. attempts to nest when occupying a small patch as13 compared to the normal range that they have before14 fragmentation?15 So I think the answer is going to be specie16 A. specific, just I can't have one for all those species.17 Different species respond differently to disturbance and18 temporal environmental disturbance like was brought up19 before. I brought up before, like spacial disturbance,20 like removing a chunk of habitat, but the other thing is21 that most of these species exhibit site fiduciary where22 they tend to return roughly to the area, sometimes very23 specific to the exact same little habitat, even the24 exact same perch on the exact same tree year after year25 108 and so what likely happens for the birds that are say in1 the forest that are predicted to be cut down, is that2 what you're trying to ask, to get at?3 Yeah. In other words, if 90 percent of where4 Q. they nested, they're bread on their habits is gone what5 happens to the breeding capacity?6 Yeah, I think the birds that are breeding in this7 A. site will come back in the spring to breed. The ones8 that are migrants. They'll come back in the spring to9 breed and they use various landmarks and cues to know10 where they're going and so they come, male birds come11 right back to the exact same piece of habitat. So12 they'll come back and there will be a

reed and they use various landmarks and cues to know10 where they're going and so they come, male birds come11 right back to the exact same piece of habitat. So12 they'll come back and there will be a house there but13 they will be in the right general area and what they14 will probably do is move into the forest in the margins,15 which, going back to what Dr. DeVito said, that16 ecological tract, the cowbirds and predators and they17 move into an environment that's not suitable for their18 species, so they come back like, cool, oh, a housing19 development, they move to a neighboring patch of woods,20 the next closet thing, they're not going to pick up and21 move to other parts that I referenced, that's very22 unlikely because they already scaled down like the23 hierarchy decision making where they're going to settle24 and they were there last year, things worked out pretty25

05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM Page 109 to 112 of 116 28 of 48 sheets 109 good so they come back. They're not going to be in the1 exact territory they were in, they're going to try to2 get a neighboring territory in the closest patch of3 woods. It would be a disrupted social environment when4 they come back in for sure.5 And assuming they're adaptive to the move to6 Q. another area, does that movement in concentration of7 more individuals in another areas impact the breeding8 capacity?9 That's hard to predict. Basically what you're10 A. doing is increasing breeding density before the event11 and so resources might go up, you also might have12 increased agonistic interactions among territory holders13 because they're bumping into each more than they14 normally would. It's a really interesting question what15 would happen, but I don't think we know the answer. We16 can just think about what it would be like to cram more17 birds into that space. That would only last a little18 while because moving into these smaller, these19 neighboring spaces they'll almost definitively have20 lower reproductive success due to lack of density. They21 don't have as much space as they need, so they might22 nest, might have smaller territories that year but23 overall their reproductive success is likely almost24 definitely less than what it would have been if25 110 distributed by the natural distribution. So after those1 fails they're less likely to return. So they did make2 babies who then don't come back or they have experience3 of failing and so they move on and that's one of the4 common things about nest failure birds is, it is very5 experienced based. If they fail they'll often make a6 change. It starts out not nesting in the exact same7 patch habitat to then moving to a different site.8 Thank you.9 Q. One last question to clarify, the four species on10 the four graphs that are on the screen now, the graph11 that is four together, are those offered as an example12 or is that what happens to species as size goes down or13 is it only these four species you're concerned about?14 No, this is just, this paper studied all the15 A. species, all breeding birds they could detect. I think16 the total number may be 780 species. I just clipped17 their figure from their paper. So they had tables of18 data from all the species they studied and this is just19 a figure that they put together,

the total number may be 780 species. I just clipped17 their figure from their paper. So they had tables of18 data from all the species they studied and this is just19 a figure that they put together, because as you can see20 in the figure it's for common forest interior species.21 So they just wanted to highlight those in their22 presentation.23 So this is an exemplar but it's not meant to be24 Q. exclusive of the effect? In other words, this is an25 111 example of using four species, it is not meant to say1 this effect is limited to these four?2 Definitely not. I think they used these figures3 A. for the same reason that I did. I used it as a4 presentation. You know, these are common species that5 should be in this area in a natural woodland habitat6 that should be here. And so they're common, they're7 specific to that habitat and they presented them in one8 of their papers for the same reason I did.9 Thank you.10 Q. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Any members of the public11 have any questions for Dr. Butler, please raise your12 hand?13 THE PUBLIC: Faith Singelis,14 S-I-N-G-E-L-I-S. I have a question about the effects of15 the building actually on the site because I know that16 there is a building here in New Jersey nearby where17 during migration the lights from the building and the18 glass, it's on a site where thousands of birds die by19 crashing into the building and I wonder, because this20 forest patch now has no light and no glass, would that21 also affect the birds?22 THE WITNESS: So I don't know the heights of23 the buildings, I haven't seen that information and that24 plays into it for sure, and also exterior lighting and25 112 mostly what the birds are crashing into in this type of1 building is going to be windows. So they're going to2 see brick and mortar on parts of the building but the3 reason they cash into the windows at the angle they're4 flying, sometimes the windows look like the sky to them5 or look like the horizon, so they just -- they don't6 know. So it depends a lot on very site specific factors7 also or conditions of the windows relative to the flight8 paths that the birds are using between patches of9 forest, which again, I don't know, but that sets up a10 situation if you have birds trying to move between11 patches, especially this concept that we're going to12 save these trees, so I have these two sets of core13 forests on either side because

s up a10 situation if you have birds trying to move between11 patches, especially this concept that we're going to12 save these trees, so I have these two sets of core13 forests on either side because it's so gray, so if they14 are and they're creating -- and you're putting buildings15 right between, you know, the birds aren't going to use16 them or when they do they could face running into these17 buildings or could also have exposed face to be exposed18 to predators.19 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.20 THE WITNESS: Sure.21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Any other members of the22 public have any questions for Dr. Butler, please come23 forward? Seeing none.24 Thank you very much, Dr. Butler.25

29 of 48 sheets Page 113 to 116 of 116 05/12/2025 02:23:28 PM 113 Mr. Afran.1 MR. AFRAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. That2 concludes our witnesses for tonight.3 As mentioned Mark Gallagher is out of the4 county, he will be available, assuming we go forward5 June 4, and we expect other witnesses at that time.6 I did want to just note that we might recall7 Sean Walsh for certain reasons. The request has been8 made to the Mayor and Council concerning a flood hazard9 analysis, potentially possible he may come back to speak10 to that issue and I may submit a copy of what was11 submitted to the extent the Board feels it's relevant to12 post as part of the final hearing. But I just wanted to13 alert you to the fact I may submit, Mr. Plocker copied14 of course, that paperwork in the event the Board15 believes it should be posted as part of the record here.16 Otherwise we will be back the next meeting with Mark17 Gallagher and other witnesses. I want to thank the18 Board for all it's attention and assistance with19 questions.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.21 Mr. Plocker.22 MR. PLOCKER: No, thank you.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.24 Well, I have to say, the two witnesses25 114 tonight were very enlightening, well spoken, well1 educated and the presentation was great. Very2 interesting. What the Board will use it for is up to3 the Board but the information that they provided was4 very interesting.5 MR. AFRAN: Thank you. Appreciate that.6 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Personally.7 Okay. Ladies and gentlemen, this8 application will be carried with no further notice9 required to June 4. The regular meeting will be here in10 town hall at 6:30. Zoom will be available, no comments11 from zoom.12 MR. PLOCKER: Sorry. Just came to my mind.13 Since you mentioned no further notice, I want to state14 for the record that the applicant did provide renotice15 for tonight's hearing and we did submit the proof of16 service and publication to the Board secretary in17 advance of the meeting and I believe it is posted on the18 agenda.19 MS. MCGOVERN: And to add, the notice20 clarified that if for some reason zoom goes down the21 show will go on here in person.22 (Hearing concluded at 9:32 P.M.)23 24 25 115 C E R T I F I C A T E1 I, ERIC S. FISHMAN, a Shorthand Reporter2 and Notary Public of the State of New Jersey do hereby3 certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate4 transcript of the testimony as

E R T I F I C A T E1 I, ERIC S. FISHMAN, a Shorthand Reporter2 and Notary Public of the State of New Jersey do hereby3 certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate4 transcript of the testimony as taken stenographically by5 and before me at the time, place and on the date6 hereinbefore set forth, to the best of my ability.7 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither a8 relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel of any of9 the parties to the action; and that I am neither a10 relative nor employee of such attorney or counsel; and11 that I am not financially interested in the action.12 13 14 ---------------------15 ERIC S. FISHMAN, S.R.16 17 18 19 Dated:__________________20 21 22 23 24 25 116 SIGNATURE PAGE/ERRATA SHEET1 2 WITNESS: CASE REFERENCE:3 4 INSTRUCTIONS TO WITNESS5 After you have read your transcript, please note any errors in transcript6 on this page. Do not mark on the transcript itself. Please sign and date this sheet as indicated below. If additional lines are required for corrections, attach additional sheets.7 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ERROR OR AMENDMENT/REASON FOR CHANGE8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Page Line9 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 I have read my transcript and subscribed to its accuracy, to include the corrections or amendments noted above or hereto attached:23 24 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Signature of Witness Date25

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