June 23, 2025 Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

1 of 21 sheets Page 1 to 4 of 52 07/19/2025 07:03:47 AM 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1 TOWNSHIP OF WEST ORANGE DEPARTMENT OF PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT MONDAY, JUNE 23, 2025 6:30 P.M. RE; PB-24-01 WEST ESSEX HIGHLANDS, INC. BOARD MEMBERS: ROBERT BAGOFF, Chairman SUSAN McCARTNEY, Mayor JERRY GUARINO, Vice Chairman KEN ALPER SUSAN SCARPA, Council Person WILLIAM WILKES JOHN J. HESS, Engineer GERARD HAIZEL, Planner JAMILET BAQUERIZO VITE, Board Secretary GENIECE GARY-ADAMS, Zoning Official JOSEPH FAGAN, Zoom Moderator WITNESS: JOHN McDONOUGH, Planner FISHMAN COURT REPORTING AGENCY 89 HEADQUARTERS PLAZA NORTH 4 SPEEDWELL AVENUE, SUITE 1440 MORRISTOWN, NEW JERSEY 07960 (973) 285-5331 - FAX - (732) 605-9391 2 A P P E A R A N C E S :1 2 H U T T , S H I M A N O W I T Z & P L O C K E R , E S Q S . B Y B R Y A N D . P L O C K E R , E S Q .3 B p l o c k e r @ h u t t s h i m . c o m 4 5 9 A M B O Y A V E N U E4 W O O D B R I D G E , N E W J E R S E Y 0 7 0 9 5 A p p e a r i n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e A p p l i c a n t5 6 G A C C I O N E & P O M A C O , E S Q S . B Y D I A N A P . M c G O V E R N , E S Q .7 O N E B O L A N D D R I V E , S U I T E 1 0 2 W E S T O R A N G E , N E W J E R S E Y 0 7 0 5 28 A p p e a r i n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e B o a r d 9 10 B R U C E I . A F R A N , E S Q . 1 0 B R A E B R U N D R I V E11 P R I N C E T O N , N E W J E R S E Y 0 8 5 4 0 A p p e a r i n g o n b e h a l f o f t h e O b j e c t o r , W e C a r e N J12 C o r p . 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 I N D E X O F E X H I B I T S2 E X H I B I T D E S C R I P T I O N P A G E3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 4 C H A I R M A N B A G O F F : P B - 2 4 - 0 1 W e s t E s s e x1 H i g h l a n d s , B l o c k 1 7 9 L o t 3 2 Z o n e I H - 1 . W a r n e r R o a d .2 T h e a p p l i c a n t i s p r o p o s i n g t o d e v e l o p a 4 9 6 u n i t3 i n c l u s i o n a r y m u l t i f a m i l y r e s i d e n t i a l d e v e l o p m e n t o n a4 v a c a n t 1 2 0 a c r e p r o p e r t y i n t h e n o r t h w e s t c o r n e r o f t h e5 T o w n s h i p o f W e s t O r a n g e .6 M r . P l o c k e r , f o r t h e a p p l i c a n t .7 M R . P L O C K E R : H i . G o o d e v e n i n g e v e r y o n e .8 B r y a n P l o c k e r o n b e h a l f o f t h e a p p l i c a n t , W e s t E s s e x9 H i g h l a n d s , I n c . A

i c a n t .7 M R . P L O C K E R : H i . G o o d e v e n i n g e v e r y o n e .8 B r y a n P l o c k e r o n b e h a l f o f t h e a p p l i c a n t , W e s t E s s e x9 H i g h l a n d s , I n c . A n d t o n i g h t w e b r o u g h t w i t h u s b a c k a s10 w e p r o m i s e d J o h n M c D o n o u g h , o u r p r o f e s s i o n a l p l a n n e r ,11 w h o g a v e a f f i r m a t i v e t e s t i m o n y b a c k i n J a n u a r y . M r .12 A f r a n , o n b e h a l f o f t h e o b j e c t o r g r o u p , c o u l d n ' t a t t e n d13 t h a t m e e t i n g s o w e p r o m i s e d t o b r i n g M r . M c D o n o u g h b a c k14 f o r c r o s s e x a m i n a t i o n a n d h e i s h e r e .15 C H A I R M A N B A G O F F : M r . M c D o n o u g h , y o u16 u n d e r s t a n d y o u ' r e s t i l l u n d e r o a t h ?17 M S . M c G O V E R N : I ' m g o i n g t o r e s w e a r h i m .18 D o y o u s w e a r o r a f f i r m t o t e l l t h e t r u t h t h e19 w h o l e t r u t h n o t h i n g b u t t h e t r u t h .20 T H E W I T N E S S : Y e s , I d o .21 M S . M c G O V E R N : T h a n k y o u .22 J O H N M C D O N O U G H , h a v i n g b e e n d u l y23 s w o r n u n d e r o a t h t e s t i f i e s a s f o l l o w s :24 C H A I R M A N B A G O F F : M r . M c D o n o u g h , y o u r25

07/19/2025 07:03:47 AM Page 5 to 8 of 52 2 of 21 sheets 5 credentials are well known to the Planning Board.1 Any member of the board have any questions2 about Mr. McDonough's credentials? None.3 Go right ahead, Mr. Afran.4 MR. AFRAN: One housekeeping matter briefly.5 It is brought to my attention, I know, I know Ms. Scarpa6 has been attending remotely for personal reasons. It is7 brought to my attention she can't ask questions because8 of the nature of the link. Now, I know she's asked9 questions before, in fact I noted the record put one to10 Mr. McDonough. It is our position that if possible11 going forward we could get a link for her either to call12 directly in on a phone so she could ask questions, we13 feel that is causing an absence of something in the14 minutes. So I'd like to ask that consideration be given15 for that for next Monday, if at all possible.16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Problem is that we have to17 offer that to all members of the public.18 MR. AFRAN: Well, I don't want to take to19 much time now because we're trying to be efficient20 tonight. I could raise, I could send a note maybe and21 we could follow-up on the subject.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. That will be fine.23 We'll discuss that at the next meeting.24 MR. AFRAN: Good evening, Mr. McDonough.25 6 MS. McGOVERN: I'm going to say one thing.1 All of the board members who are not available, like2 last meeting there were a couple of board members who3 are watching it live stream because for one reason or4 another, personal emergency or whatever the case may be5 couldn't be here, they're all advised if you have a6 question that you want answered bring it to me and we7 can ask that the witness be brought back to ask the8 question. And I received no information from any of the9 board members. It has happened in the past a couple10 months ago, where we did have one of our board members,11 Mr. Klein wasn't here, he came in and he said I missed12 it but I do have some questions because he watched the13 tape. They're not foreclosed from asking questions.14 MR. AFRAN: I appreciate that. I was simply15 raising the issue that was brought to my attention.16 What Ms. McGovern is saying is logical, it wasn't17 something I was aware of. I just brought to your18 attention what I was told and, you know, I am not19 suggesting I have any position one way or the other. I20 just wanted to bring it to your

wasn't17 something I was aware of. I just brought to your18 attention what I was told and, you know, I am not19 suggesting I have any position one way or the other. I20 just wanted to bring it to your attention.21 MS. McGOVERN: Understood. We aren't22 precluding anyone from asking a question and making that23 available to the board members for sure, but it must be24 done in the public where they're here and they ask25 7 questions and that's what's happening, or if they send1 me a question and I relay it and it's done in public so2 that everybody can hear it.3 MR. AFRAN: No, I appreciate that. I raise4 the issue as it was brought to my attention, I did not5 have any knowledge on the subject.6 MS. McGOVERN: With respect to this witness,7 Ms. Scarpa already asked questions, so it is really not8 an issue tonight.9 MR. AFRAN: No, not an issue tonight.10 Appreciate your consideration. Thank you.11 Good evening, Mr. McDonough.12 Q. Good evening, Mr. Afran.13 A. Thank you for coming back. I know you have14 Q. another meeting, I appreciate you coming back tonight, I15 was unable to be here, so we'll try to be expeditious.16 Thank you.17 A. Now, you noted in your testimony that this18 Q. satisfies one of the goals of planning, namely providing19 affordable housing?20 Correct.21 A. But there are other goals in the MLUL, for22 Q. example, normally to be incorporated into zoning23 ordinances, isn't that true?24 Yes. That's true, yes.25 A. 8 And could you state the other goals?1 Q. Sure. Well, there's about 18 or so under the2 A. Land Use Law.3 Let me do it shorter then. I will shortcut. You4 Q. would agree that among them, or I will select some.5 Section C, to provide adequate light, air and open6 space?7 Yes.8 A. Section D, to ensure that the development of9 Q. individual municipalities does not conflict with the10 development and general welfare of neighboring11 municipalities?12 Yes.13 A. To promote the establishment of appropriate14 Q. population densities?15 Yes.16 A. And concentrations that will contribute to the17 Q. well-being of persons, neighborhoods and communities?18 Agreed 100 percent, yes.19 A. I'll skip some that don't seem relevant to our20 Q. particular case.21 To encourage the location and design of22 transportation routes which will promote the free flow23 of traffic while discouraging location of such facility24 and routes which result in congestion

se.21 To encourage the location and design of22 transportation routes which will promote the free flow23 of traffic while discouraging location of such facility24 and routes which result in congestion or blithe?25

3 of 21 sheets Page 9 to 12 of 52 07/19/2025 07:03:47 AM 9 Yes, agreed.1 A. To provide a desirable and visual environment to2 Q. the various locations?3 Agreed again, yes.4 A. J in the statute, To promote the conservation of5 Q. historic sites and districts, open space, energy6 resources and valuable natural resources in the State7 and to prevent urban sprawl and degradation of the8 environment through improper use of land?9 Yes, another purpose.10 A. And there are others in the MLUL?11 Q. That's correct.12 A. And I am citing from Section 40:55D-2?13 Q. Yes.14 A. So it's not just affordable housing that needs to15 Q. be satisfied as a matter of good planning, but rather16 these other elements must also be satisfied?17 Correct. There are multiple purposes of zoning,18 A. as I understand the law it's the applicants burden to19 show and demonstrate that it meets one or more. One or20 more.21 Now, I understand that you did not consider the22 Q. impact of stormwater on the neighboring municipalities,23 such as Essex Fells?24 Well, again, my testimony relies upon the25 A. 10 predicate of expert witnesses that have gone before me.1 So while I may not be an engineer, I am relying on the2 engineering conclusions that the site will not cause a3 negative impact from a stormwater standpoint on4 neighboring properties.5 But you would agree though that impact on6 Q. neighboring properties is a factor the board must7 consider under the MLUL?8 Yes, zoning and planning does not end at the9 A. property lines, I agree. Municipal lines, I agree.10 Municipal lines?11 Q. Yes.12 A. Thank you.13 Q. Now, you noted that the Master Plan of the town14 speaks to affordable housing?15 Yes, the affordable housing, the housing element16 A. and fair share plan is one element of the Master Plan.17 And in fact nearly every town has one at this18 Q. stage?19 Correct. Agreed.20 A. And -- but the Master Plan also has other21 Q. objectives and goals such as preservation of open space,22 protection of the environment and other factors like23 that?24 Indeed. Yes.25 A. 11 So, again, the fact that we satisfy the1 Q. affordable housing aspect to the Master Plan doesn't2 mean the rest of the Master Plan is necessarily3 satisfied?4 I agree with you.5 A. The MLUL, particularly Section 55:D-2, is6 Q. intended as a guide for incorporation into the zoning7 ordinance, isn't that right?8 That's correct.

lan is necessarily3 satisfied?4 I agree with you.5 A. The MLUL, particularly Section 55:D-2, is6 Q. intended as a guide for incorporation into the zoning7 ordinance, isn't that right?8 That's correct. That's the pre-ample to the MLUL9 A. and the reason why this town and other towns get to zone10 in the first place.11 So the zoning ordinances have to adopt those12 Q. standards in some form in order to comply with the MLUL?13 Yes.14 A. MR. PLOCKER: I am going to object to this15 line of questioning to the extent the zoning ordinance16 speaks for itself and to the extent these questions are17 designed to attack the zoning ordinance. This is the18 wrong forum or that.19 MR. AFRAN: Well, if the zoning ordinance20 suspends virtually every environmental rule, all21 environmental rules as the applicant suggests, then it's22 actually not providing standards under Section J, is it?23 THE WITNESS: All I can say is that this24 zoning ordinance was found to be substantially25 12 consistent with the Master Plan when it was adopted back1 in, I believe, 2021.2 By the council. The council made that finding3 Q. and the Planning Board --4 But the Planning Board was in between making a5 A. finding that the zoning ordinance would not impair the6 intent and purpose of the Master Plan.7 MR. PLOCKER: Again, I'm going to object. I8 believe this is the wrong forum to discuss the merits of9 the ordinance. The ordinance was adopted during COVID,10 I watched it, there was no legal lawsuit, there was no11 prerogative writ suit challenging the ordinance. To the12 extent this line of questioning is seeking to challenge13 the zoning ordinance the Planning Board does not have14 jurisdiction over that area.15 MR. AFRAN: Actually, I'm not here to16 challenge the zoning ordinance, that would not be the17 correct forum, I would agree with Mr. Plocker on that18 point. My purpose was different.19 Now, you cited the Pizzo Mantin case several20 Q. times in your testimony. Now -- and you said Pizzo21 Mantin says that we look for sound planning in the22 ordinance, that was what you said, I think, in your23 testimony?24 Yes, the essence of good planning is routed the25 A.

07/19/2025 07:03:47 AM Page 13 to 16 of 52 4 of 21 sheets 13 zoning ordinance.1 Pizzo Mantin dealt with a case in which the2 Q. Superior Court found that the zoning ordinance actually3 specifically incorporated the different standards from4 the MLUL, such as avoiding steep slopes, avoiding5 wetlands, protecting the environment, isn't that6 correct?7 I don't recall that specific language in there.8 A. Again, I know there's always a nexus between a ordinance9 and the Master Plan and the purposes of zoning and the10 MLUL.11 Okay.12 Q. I am not going to press you if you don't recall13 that specific language, but if an ordinance actually14 abandons all environmental protection, as the applicant15 suggests this one does, then the board, even under Pizzo16 Mantin, has no choice but to look for the general17 welfare principles under the MLUL with respect to the18 environment --19 MR. PLOCKER: I'm going to object to the20 characterization saying an ordinance is abandoning all21 environmental protection.22 MR. AFRAN: Well, then Mr. Plocker will like23 to identify where it does offer environmental protection24 if he's going to make --25 14 MR. PLOCKER: I don't have to do that.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We're going to move on.2 The ordinance is the ordinance, it's here set in stone.3 You may argue this in another venue, but for right now4 it's the rules we have to work with. So I would5 recommend you move on, please.6 Well, if the ordinance requires environmental7 Q. review of a site plan application that means the board8 does have to in fact consider and explore the9 environmental impacts of the plan, doesn't it?10 Well, there is a couple forces that play in here.11 A. The affordable housing regulations have specific12 language that talks about eliminating barriers to the13 provision of affordable housing. That said, I think we14 can certainly agree that doesn't mean that an ordinance15 or a site plan can be violative of environmental16 protection regulations. I like this application for the17 reasons that I said before, preserving 90 of the 12018 acres is, I think, is environmentally responsive and19 context sensitive buffers of 900 feet on one side is20 something -- I do this every night. I never see 90021 buffers on one side and 700 feet on another side. This22 is a very considerate plan with respect to environmental23 preservation, in my view.24 And are you trained in

is every night. I never see 90021 buffers on one side and 700 feet on another side. This22 is a very considerate plan with respect to environmental23 preservation, in my view.24 And are you trained in environmental protection?25 Q. 15 It's part of the multiplicity of things planners1 A. need to consider is environmental planning.2 Are you trained in environmental protection?3 Q. I am --4 A. That was my question.5 Q. I am not an environmental scientist per se who6 A. delineates wetlands and the like.7 My question was simply, are your trained in8 Q. environmental protection?9 MR. PLOCKER: What's environmental10 protection? Is there a licence in environmental11 protection? I don't understand.12 MR. AFRAN: I don't think I need to have a13 license statute to understand my question. It's a14 simple question. The planner testified several times15 tonight as well as earlier that he thinks this is an16 environmentally sound plan.17 MR. PLOCKER: And he also said he relied on18 --19 MR. AFRAN: I simply asking, what are his20 credentials to make that judgement.21 MR. PLOCKER: He also testified he relied on22 other professionals who gave testimony in this case,23 including the boards own professional.24 MR. AFRAN: Actually what the gentleman said25 16 was, in my opinion, and gestured to himself, this plan1 is environmentally sound.2 MR. PLOCKER: Would you like to rephrase3 your testimony, Mr. McDonough?4 MR. AFRAN: I appreciate if we wouldn't lead5 a witness into changing his testimony. That's not a6 proper question.7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. McDonough, have you8 had courses in environmental protection in any of your9 degrees?10 THE WITNESS: Yes, my undergraduate is11 actually in environmental planning and design.12 Well, environmental planning, what have you13 Q. studied by way of ecological science?14 We have ecology classes in school. We are also15 A. required and mandated to have continuing education as16 part of our licensure. Biannual licensure.17 Let me be direct. Do you have a degree in18 Q. ecology? In ecological science.19 I do not have a degree in ecology.20 A. Okay.21 Q. Do you have a degree in environmental science?22 No.23 A. Do you have a degree in wetlands science?24 Q. No.25 A.

5 of 21 sheets Page 17 to 20 of 52 07/19/2025 07:03:47 AM 17 Okay.1 Q. Do you have any degree in subjects such as air2 emissions and pollution?3 No.4 A. So you have some courses that touch on the5 Q. environment as a planner, just as lawyers will have6 common law class, doesn't make us all constitutional7 lawyers, does it?8 Right. Planners are known as the "great9 A. generalists" because we rely on specialties of others.10 Okay. Thank you very much. That's very helpful.11 Q. Now, you testified a few times that this plan is12 good because it allows for sprawl, to just generalize13 what you said. Now, there are three main buildings14 here, right?15 Yes.16 A. And there's a fourth for some reason none of17 Q. really know, there's a animal hospital in the project.18 That's a fourth building, correct?19 Yes.20 A. Now, Building D is pretty far off to the side on21 Q. the project, isn't it? And there's a considerable space22 between that and the other two buildings, right?23 Yes.24 A. So that's actually sprawl in a very real sense,25 Q. 18 because we're not concentrating these buildings1 together, we're actually using up much more of the land2 to accommodate Building C way off to the side, isn't3 that true?4 In my opinion the applicant has done a good job5 A. of concentrating the buildings in pockets, developable6 pockets on the site and connecting them by a road7 network, which I believe is not sprawl. Again, that's8 consistent with centralized cluster planning.9 Right. If you have one pocket here and one10 Q. pocket here, and one pocket here, you're spreading out11 the development, aren't you?12 The development is connected but I don't, I would13 A. not qualify it as spread out.14 Okay.15 Q. So your feeling is that Building D for example,16 is not sprawl, representing sprawl and the animal17 hospital in the far end is not sprawl. You think this18 is a development that's compact and makes good use of19 land, is that your testimony?20 That is my testimony, yes.21 A. Thank you.22 Q. You say there's a minimal land disturbance of the23 project. You said that several times in your testimony24 if you recall that. Do you recall that?25 19 Yes, I do.1 A. Well, let me ask you, this is going to consume2 Q. about one third of the site, isn't it?3 That's correct.4 A. And in fact it's going to, in consuming that one5 Q. third, it's actually going to clearcut that entire6 third,