July 30, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting Transcript - WEHI

ould you say, our sewer line collapsed.4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Ma'am, you're testifying.5 So you may ask him a question about what he said.6 THE PUBLIC: My question was, because of7 that, I am concerned if it's adequate.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You can ask him.9 THE PUBLIC: Okay. I thank we're done.10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.11 Please come up and state your name. Three12 minutes.13 THE PUBLIC: Rachel Klein, Howell Drive.14 I just have a question about you said the15 use of a water tower is necessary to get water to this16 development. To these 500 more homes. So my question17 would be, does the water tower have to be taller than18 the tallest building or is that something that we don't19 have to be concerned about? Is that -- I just wanted to20 get an idea of just how high you're talking about this21 additional structure now.22 THE WITNESS: Well, my engineering judgment23 is that it probably would have to be 90-feet in the air.24 Up near the top of the mountain. I believe it's going25 92 to have to -- the way I looked at it, it would have to1 be 90 feet in the air. I don't know exactly how big it2 has to be. That's a whole other study that somebody has3 to do. I just looked at the fact that there wasn't any4 provision for how water was going to be supplied up5 there and what the volumes were going to be. I didn't6 see anything indicating that that was looked at. Maybe7 there's another study these guys got that I didn't see,8 but I didn't see any plans. But that's what I came up9 with. You got to get it up high enough to get pressure10 to the upper floor. Everything else below would be11 fine, it would be more pressure. That's, you know, and12 this is a passive way of getting pressure in the event13 that the electrical power goes off and you can't pump it14 up there to get pressure. That could easily happen, we15 got plenty of electrical storms. It only take one to16 knock out the power and you got nothing. An now you17 need the water for fire protection and I like to take a18 shower.19 THE PUBLIC: 100 percent. And 90-feet,20 that's taller then 75-feet, right?21 THE WITNESS: What's that?22 THE PUBLIC: You just said because of the23 height limit that they have agreed to the 75-feet.24 90-feet's taller, right?25

09/16/2025 06:29:53 AM Page 93 to 96 of 130 24 of 33 sheets 93 THE WITNESS: I know nothing about the1 height limit.2 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.4 Are there any other members of the public5 who have questions for Mr. Green? Please come up and6 identify yourself.7 THE PUBLIC: Anne Ricigliano,8 R-I-C-I-G-L-I-A-N-O. I live in the Highlands right9 below the property.10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Speak into the mic louder.11 THE PUBLIC: I just have a question, might12 be apparent to everyone. Rachel was talking about the13 height of these necessary towers and water towers. So14 I'm thinking of how much water, how high much physical15 space this is going to be taking in the development. We16 spend so many hours staring at slides where the17 buildings will be and so much has been made about the18 real estate that would be taken up by these buildings.19 But it sounds like more real estate is going to be taken20 up with towers, water towers, etc. Pumps, so is that21 your opinion, this is going to take up more space?22 THE WITNESS: Of course.23 THE PUBLIC: Of course. Okay. Well, I just24 want your opinion.25 94 THE WITNESS: I can't tell you exactly --1 THE PUBLIC: I don't know how apparent that2 is.3 THE WITNESS: I can't tell you exactly what4 the actual design of what they're going to come up with.5 That's not my job here.6 THE PUBLIC: But it's something that should7 be done?8 THE WITNESS: I would figure 50-foot diameter9 circle on the ground --10 THE PUBLIC: These are rather large things.11 Okay. That's all I wanted to ask you.12 THE WITNESS: -- at least minimum. I mean,13 it could be much smaller too, I don't know. I'm not14 designing it.15 THE PUBLIC: Okay. Thank you.16 THE PUBLIC: Erin Berry, Nottingham Road.17 RSIS, I didn't get the acronym exactly, is flood impact18 part of that?19 THE WITNESS: Who?20 THE PUBLIC: Whatever that acronym is, RSIS.21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: For the public, it's the22 Residential Site Improvement Standard.23 THE PUBLIC: RSIS.24 THE WITNESS: It's just an acronym for that.25 95 THE PUBLIC: I didn't understand what it1 was. Is flooding, I heard something mentioned about2 flooding, is that part of the requirement?3 THE WITNESS: It requires applicants to look4 into stormwater, yeah.5 THE PUBLIC: And I didn't catch it. Was6 that part of what was in the plan or needs to be in the7 plan?8 THE WITNESS: They have stormwater

TNESS: It requires applicants to look4 into stormwater, yeah.5 THE PUBLIC: And I didn't catch it. Was6 that part of what was in the plan or needs to be in the7 plan?8 THE WITNESS: They have stormwater plans,9 yeah. They have basins and inlets. They have a lot of10 facilities for that. They have a stormwater calculation11 study that's 500 pages long which I reviewed. Other12 people are experts in that, I'm not testifying on that,13 but, you know, yes, that's in there, it's in the RSIS.14 THE PUBLIC: And is that in the plan that15 that addresses flooding?16 THE WITNESS: Well, the whole idea of putting17 the basins in, the stormwater basin is to collect the18 water during major storms. They cover, you know, all19 the way up to 100 year storms which could be quite a lot20 of water. There's something there, whether it's going21 to work or not, I can't testify.22 MR. PLOCKER: He didn't testify to23 stormwater at all.24 THE WITNESS: There's other people to talk25 96 about that.1 THE PUBLIC: Okay. I was just trying to2 understand if it was part of what was in the plan and if3 it's required or not.4 THE WITNESS: Well, it's required by RSIS and5 other professionals who are experts in that area have6 addressed it. Okay. There's other people, I7 understand, who have issues with it, but I don't.8 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.10 Any other members of the public who have11 questions for Mr. Green? Please come up. You have12 three minutes.13 THE PUBLIC: Kumar Patel, West Orange. So I14 have a question regarding, based on your professional15 opinion, right. Sewer line that is designed for 80 to16 90 single family homes, can they accommodate the17 capacity of 700 and somewhat gallons that you were18 talking about that would be required by this applicant?19 THE WITNESS: It's like 74,000 gallons a20 day.21 THE PUBLIC: Yeah, 74,000.22 THE WITNESS: And it could come down during23 peak hours at the rate of 900 gallons a minute for an24 hour, let's say.25

25 of 33 sheets Page 97 to 100 of 130 09/16/2025 06:29:53 AM 97 THE PUBLIC: So would that sewer line, if1 you go 80 to 90 single family homes, accommodate that2 extra capacity or --3 THE WITNESS: I don't know. This4 application is 496 units in mid height buildings, four5 story buildings. That's what I looked at. I didn't6 look at, I didn't look at single family homes.7 THE PUBLIC: So in your experience 80 to 908 single family homes capacity or the discharge that would9 be coming from that would be approximately how much?10 THE WITNESS: I have to do the calculation.11 THE PUBLIC: Okay. It would be less than12 what --13 THE WITNESS: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely14 less. Yeah. Unless there's ten room houses or15 something, but if they're normal houses.16 THE PUBLIC: Three to four rooms?17 THE WITNESS: Four, five bedrooms. There's18 some big houses around here. Beautiful big homes. I19 visited one today.20 THE PUBLIC: I have a question for the town21 engineer, Mr. Chair.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Green right now.23 THE PUBLIC: That was it.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.25 98 THE WITNESS: You're welcome.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Do any other members of2 the public have a question for Mr. Green on his3 testimony?4 Please come up.5 THE PUBLIC: Thank you. Susan Pannullo. I6 live within the 200-foot notification range and I have a7 few questions, actually leveraging off the prior8 speaker.9 Thank you. Where are the utility crossings?10 How do you get to the mountain top? How does that work.11 How do the utility crossings get to the mountain top?12 How do they go. Do they cross existing sewers or is it13 necessary to rip up Warren Road. How did they get14 there?15 THE WITNESS: The water, the sewers going to16 be separated and under the street somewhere.17 THE PUBLIC: So do they have to rip up the18 road in order to get those sewer lines up there?19 THE WITNESS: Well, I would assume they have20 to dig trenches before they put the road in. But, you21 know.22 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.23 THE WITNESS: If the roads there they're24 going to have to break it up.25 99 THE PUBLIC: Break the road up. Okay. Got1 it. Thank you.2 How many types of utility lines will they3 need for gas, electric, sanitary lines? Like what are4 the different kinds of lines that have to get up there?5 THE WITNESS: All those plus water.6 THE PUBLIC: Okay.7 THE WITNESS: I envision you have a8 eight-inch waterline coming

ry lines? Like what are4 the different kinds of lines that have to get up there?5 THE WITNESS: All those plus water.6 THE PUBLIC: Okay.7 THE WITNESS: I envision you have a8 eight-inch waterline coming from some source, maybe9 where the existing water plant is being expanded maybe,10 if they can do that. I don't know. Now you got an11 eight inch line going all the way up to this water tower12 I'm suggesting they need and then from there you're13 going to have six or eight-inch lines coming back down14 to each of the separate buildings that go under the15 street. So you got not just one line going up there you16 got up and then coming back.17 THE PUBLIC: And how do they get under the18 street?19 THE WITNESS: Up there they're going to have20 to blast.21 THE PUBLIC: Blast. Okay.22 THE WITNESS: It's rock, right.23 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.24 All right. And then last question, are25 100 sprinkler systems of any use to fight a forest fire?1 How does that work.2 THE WITNESS: It will work great if you put3 the sprinkler all over on the trees.4 THE PUBLIC: So what would you need to fight5 a forest fire in terms of water sources?6 THE WITNESS: You need hydrants every couple7 hundred feet.8 THE PUBLIC: And how does that work? Like,9 how do the hydrants get there.10 THE WITNESS: You got pipes dedicated to11 feeding them and they're at least six or eight-inches in12 diameter.13 THE PUBLIC: And how do they get to like --14 do you have to bust up the road to get those there?15 THE WITNESS: Yeah, they're going to go16 parallel with all the other pipes that we talked about.17 THE PUBLIC: You got to blast?18 THE WITNESS: Yeah, blast. It's rock.19 THE PUBLIC: All right. Thank you.20 THE WITNESS: Probably trap rock.21 THE PUBLIC: Got it.22 All right. Thank you, sir. Okay.23 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you very much.24 Any other member of the public have25

09/16/2025 06:29:53 AM Page 101 to 104 of 130 26 of 33 sheets 101 questions for Mr. Green?1 THE PUBLIC: It's actually one question and2 one minute. Seth Weisleder, Howell Drive.3 Does RSIS mention water volume or pressure?4 THE WITNESS: It tells you how to calculate5 the water usage which is equivalent to volume. Okay.6 Pressure -- it doesn't talk about pressure, but for a7 practical standpoint you got to have 50 PSI for all your8 fixtures to work. Okay. So they dont have to put that9 in there, any good mechanical engineering firm would10 know that and satisfy the needs.11 THE PUBLIC: Okay. So there's no standard12 for pressure?13 THE WITNESS: I said there's engineering14 experience and practice.15 THE PUBLIC: Was that included in these16 plans that were submitted, pressure and the volume or17 both or one?18 THE WITNESS: There was no discussion of the19 volume requirements or anything about how to supply the20 water to any of those units. Especially not something I21 would've expected to see.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Any other members in the23 public have any questions for Mr. Green on his24 testimony?25 102 Any member have any questions for Mr. Green1 on his testimony?2 Seeing none. Thank you very much, Mr.3 Green.4 Mr. Afran.5 MR. AFRAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.6 The only other witness we have this evening7 is Joe, Pannullo, who's the president of the board of We8 Care. I have a presentation, I'm not sure exactly every9 issue he's going to going into. I know there's some10 documents he wants to proffer, obviously Ms. McGovern11 and I had a discussion earlier, there might be some12 questions from the board whether that's appropriate in13 testimony, but I just leave that to the board's14 discretion as we go forward. I'll address it if there's15 any issues that are raised.16 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: So there's a difference17 between the public comment and expert testimony, as you18 know. The problem is, is he an expert in any field that19 we have people to evaluate, our engineer, our planner.20 MR. AFRAN: He was not planning to offer21 expert testimony and the documents he's offering were22 documents previously submitted to the board or its staff23 from various diocese and I understand he wants to24 proffer those. He might have -- I saw his memo that he25 103 sent to, I think, Ms. McGovern, I don't know if there's1 anything beyond that frankly, I can't speak to

cese and I understand he wants to24 proffer those. He might have -- I saw his memo that he25 103 sent to, I think, Ms. McGovern, I don't know if there's1 anything beyond that frankly, I can't speak to that.2 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Providing testimony,3 providing information about documents that were provided4 to the board and documents to the board has. So5 anything else is in the realm of public comment.6 MR. PLOCKER: Mr. Chairman, may I.7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker.8 MR. PLOCKER: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.9 Also Mr. Pannullo, as Mr. Afran identified,10 is the president of the official objector group, who is11 represented by very capable counsel.12 Can I -- let me finish. Very capable. So I13 think, you know, we went through this last time when I14 think it was Mr. Tractenberg who testified and we let15 him testify about some things, but I think there needs16 to be a key distinction drawn, is this going to be17 factual and saying water gets yea high when it rains18 outside my house or is he going to be introducing19 documents that may lead to legal arguments, which Mr.20 Afran has shown he's very capable of making. Because21 the objector We Care is represented by counsel I believe22 it was agreed to at the beginning of this hearing that23 none of the officers of We Care would be testifying.24 MR. AFRAN: That was not was agreed to.25 104 What was agreed to was they wouldn't speak in public1 comment.2 MR. PLOCKER: And the board didn't agree to3 that --4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: One at a time.5 MR. AFRAN: I expressly reserved the power6 and right, subject to the boards discretion of course,7 that members of the board of We Care would, from time to8 time, offer testimony. I never said they would never9 speak. I said they would not speak during the public10 comment portion.11 MR. PLOCKER: And one more thing. There was12 a memo that was referred to, I have not seen a copy of13 that memo.14 MS. McGOVERN: I got an e-mail that talks15 about documents. I know one of them was --16 MR. AFRAN: That's what I was referring to.17 MS. McGOVERN: Was things that were remedied18 and are completely removed at this point.19 MR. PLOCKER: That sounds like legal20 argument.21 MR. AFRAN: Let me just suggest the22 following. Firstly, as far as Mr. Plocker's comment is23 concerned. I didn't see the e-mail either, until it was24 copied to me after it was sent. I didn't realize Mr.25

27 of 33 sheets Page 105 to 108 of 130 09/16/2025 06:29:53 AM 105 Plocker didn't get it. I would suggest we let Mr.1 Pannullo begin and if the board Chair or the board2 itself feels that it's not appropriate the board could3 rule. That's the only thing I could suggest.4 MR. PLOCKER: The applicant would ask for a5 proffer what the testimony's going to be concerning.6 MS. McGOVERN: Yeah, I agree with that and I7 think Mr. Afran, you're the one who should give the8 proffer because you're the attorney for the group.9 MR. AFRAN: The attorneys don't control all10 of the world, as Ms. McGovern will acknowledge.11 MS. McGOVERN: I do understand that. I do.12 I understand it. I live it. But maybe you want to have13 a consultation and you could -- you can in your judgment14 advise the board as to why this is evidence that the15 board needs at this time.16 MR. AFRAN: May I suggest that we take a17 ten-minute break, also because I want to check on one of18 the experts availability.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Before go. Ladies and20 gentlemen of the public, what we're doing is trying to21 work within the guidelines of how information is22 provided to the Planning Board so we can use it to make23 the judgment on an application. Small application in24 your backyard or a big application for hundreds of25 106 units. The goal is that we all have rules that we have1 to follow. If we start going left or right of the rules2 it becomes problematic, because the applicant, the3 objector and the public doesn't get a fair hearing.4 Just like in court. This is a quasi judicial body, we5 have to follow the rules. There are pieces of evidence6 provided by experts, as you heard this evening, Mr.7 Green the civil engineer, he has degrees in civil8 engineering and also holds a license in the State of New9 Jersey. His testimony is provided based on his10 licenses, his education and his understanding of the11 application. On the other hand, the public is allowed12 to comment at the end of the application about the13 application and they will have time, you will have time14 to say what's on your mind, whether in favor, not in15 favor, ask questions, but mostly for comment on what you16 feel, how you feel. That's what that part of the17 application is for. So at this time we're asking for18 information that is of the highest level provided by19 experts so the board can understand better how

ow you feel. That's what that part of the17 application is for. So at this time we're asking for18 information that is of the highest level provided by19 experts so the board can understand better how this20 application fits within the zone plan and all the moving21 parts you have been listening to over the last 14 or so22 meetings provided by the applicant, our experts and the23 objector. So to that end, take five minutes Mr. Afran.24 MR. AFRAN: Yes, thank you.25 107 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, take a five minute1 break.2 (Whereupon, a short recess is taken.)3 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. We're back on4 the record.5 Mr. Afran. We're back with Mr. Afran6 momentarily.7 Mr. Plocker, there was some information in8 the New York Times and the National Forestry Service I9 had read about mini forests, also known as microforests.10 Small density planted areas designed to mimic a natural11 forests echo system. It seems that these are coming12 vogue. They have great biodensity, lots of good air13 quality, so on and so forth. We would like to ask that14 we have funding to speak to Mr. DeFeo, the forester for15 the Planning Board, to find out more about this and how16 it is going to help this application.17 MR. PLOCKER: So is the board making a18 request of the applicant --19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Yes, the board is.20 MR. PLOCKER: Okay. Yeah, that's fine.21 MS. McGOVERN: Bruce, I did forward a copy22 of the e-mail. I know you're probably not looking at23 that --24 MR. PLOCKER: You mean Bryan. You said25 108 Bruce.1 MS. McGOVERN: Oh. I'm sorry. I'm looking2 at Bryan. I did send it to you.3 MR. PLOCKER: I did receive an e-mail.4 We'll take a look at it. That's no problem. Thank you.5 MS. McGOVERN: It's fascinating. I know6 Lori has toured one, right?7 MR. AFRAN: I'm sorry, I can't hear.8 MS. McGOVERN: One of our board members has9 actually toward one of these microforests.10 MS. KAPFERER: And there's some that the11 Environmental Commission planted, they call it a tiny12 forest. So I think that's what you're referring to.13 MS. McGOVERN: Yeah. Got some very14 beneficial qualities to it. Introducing a heat island,15 creating some real natural habitat, allowing for -- I16 don't know.17 MR. AFRAN: Why are we talking about18 microforests? Has anybody spoke to that.19 MS. McGOVERN: No, but there we're20 discussions about the loss of the forest from the21 environmental person and whether

R. AFRAN: Why are we talking about18 microforests? Has anybody spoke to that.19 MS. McGOVERN: No, but there we're20 discussions about the loss of the forest from the21 environmental person and whether this would be helpful22 as a substitute for that.23 MR. AFRAN: Well, none of my experts have24 spoke to the issues yet. And creating a microforest is25