December 10, 2025, Planning Board Special Meeting - WEHI Transcript

ring the Jurassic periods, one came out, flowed21 out just like Iceland. It flowed out underground then22 it stopped, then we had an erosion. So you had all the23 red sandstone come that's iron in the sandstone and then24 it occurred again, during tertiary about 40 million25 135 years ago it silted. Okay. After that it broke off1 North America what has mapped in that period of time is2 you got a lot of piles and you stated that you were at3 the bottom of the hill and you saw the slope and then it4 slides out and becomes a shallow slope, correct?5 THE WITNESS: I reviewed -- I am not a6 geologist. You -- included in the review the geology of7 the Caldwell Quadra Angle Map and that indicated that8 most of the soils overlying directly overlie the rock9 glacial till.10 THE PUBLIC: And glacial till is made up of11 what? How much smectite and how much illite?12 THE WITNESS: I can't talk to that.13 THE PUBLIC: That's where people,14 individuals that are concerned about is the mass wasting15 coming down the hill and at the bottom of the hill,16 you're saying that slopes and it slopes, gently slopes17 off. Is that a talis pile or is that a mass waste over18 the mountain over millenniums or generations?19 THE WITNESS: I can only say the mapping20 says it's a glacial till.21 THE PUBLIC: It is glacial, yes. There's22 about 80,000 years ago 400-feet above there, okay.23 Thank you.24 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I'm not --25 136 THE PUBLIC: Okay.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Any another members of the2 public who have questions for Mr. Kleinberg on his3 testimony?4 THE PUBLIC: Deborah Deruce, D-E-R-U-C-E. I5 find it interesting, I want to know from your6 statements, you are saying that by building this project7 it's a feasible project and the slope by the8 calculations that you do, but my question is that over a9 period of time, like 20, 30, 40 years, residents living10 below the slope are talking about, you know, basements11 being flooded when it rains very heavily, where12 sinkholes appear along Howell Road when you go up Howell13 there are a lot of sinkholes that appear in certain14 parts where houses are being built and when you are15 coming down Howell and Slayback you have water coming16 through where the sewer separates from the roads and17 holes appear. So with all these observations that18 people are saying that they see coming just from the19 water from the top, how does that

ng16 through where the sewer separates from the roads and17 holes appear. So with all these observations that18 people are saying that they see coming just from the19 water from the top, how does that affect now if you're20 going to be building this big project, are you saying21 that's not going to be exacerbated on account of that22 area is not going to be affected but the area below will23 not be affected by the bigger improvements that you're24 putting through?25

35 of 55 sheets Page 137 to 140 of 144 01/14/2026 10:36:25 AM 137 THE WITNESS: I apologize. I looked at the1 slope on the east side of Building D and the stability2 calculations that were performed by the engineers. The3 conditions you are describing, sinkholes and that sort4 of thing, are, I have no idea what the basis -- I mean,5 I believe that it occur's but I have no idea what's6 causing it.7 THE PUBLIC: After Hurricane Sandy many8 trees fell down, you could see over a period of time how9 the land keeps on moving, even where I live at the10 bottom, I have a simple ridge that goes down on the side11 of my house is sloped, that whole slope is deeper and12 deeper in the past few years. When I go uphill and I13 look around and I see those marshy type things growing,14 the sinkholes and trees deteriorating and you can see15 this kind of evolution that's going on in that whole16 forest, especially along the slopes in and around that17 site. So I am saying with all these calculations, which18 are hypothetical, if you go and actually observe what's19 going on over in those areas over a period of time, I20 live there 30 years and people are saying these things21 are happening in basements, what happens in this area22 when you hear this, how are those kinds of observations23 on the surface to what you're, when you're building down24 in bedrock?25 138 THE WITNESS: I really, I can't -- I did not1 spend a lot of time there but I did not see anything and2 I am not contradicting you at all but the limited area3 that I looked at, which is wooded slope to the east of4 the building, I didn't see anything that looked like5 what you're describing. I'm sorry.6 THE PUBLIC: All right. Thank you.7 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.8 Do any other members have any questions for9 Mr. Kleinberg on his testimony? Seeing none. Thank you10 very much.11 MR. AFRAN: I have one follow-up question in12 case Mr. Kleinberg doesn't come back. I want to ask one13 more.14 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran.15 You mentioned, Mr. Kleinberg, that using the16 Q. higher safety factor would be a financial burden on the17 applicant. Now, I don't see any reference in your18 report to any financial calculations or burden?19 That was not in my venue. What I testified to is20 A. that 1.5 in my experience is an adequate safety factor21 for a slope of this type.22 Is there any financial calculations that you're23 Q. aware

19 That was not in my venue. What I testified to is20 A. that 1.5 in my experience is an adequate safety factor21 for a slope of this type.22 Is there any financial calculations that you're23 Q. aware of as to what the additional burden would be from24 the higher safety factor?25 139 She was asking me a general question, what sort1 A. of a choice I'm faced with in designing something. And2 do I -- and am I justified in designing for a higher3 safety factor than is required.4 My questions very simple. You said there'd be a5 Q. financial burden to the developer. Are you aware of6 what the --7 I was not talking about this developer. I was8 A. not.9 Are you aware -- let me be clear then.10 Q. That was definitely not my basis for the11 A. recommending the 1.5. 1.5 is because that is a standard12 that is applied to this condition. I was -- I had no13 concern about any impact on the development. She asked14 me what I would do as an engineer. Why I would make15 this choice over that and I was not talking about, it's16 a hypothetical, and I was not talking about this17 project. So if you're implying that, that is incorrect.18 I am responding to what you said.19 Q. No, you're twisting it.20 A. Excuse me, Mr. Kleinberg.21 Q. You're twisting what I said.22 A. It is my responsibility to follow up what you23 Q. say. And if what you say leads to a question, it is my24 duty to ask it. It is your duty to answer it. My25 140 question is very simple. Are you aware of any increased1 financial burden that has been calculated on this2 project on this developer --3 None.4 A. Let me finish, sir. If a higher safety factor5 Q. were used, "yes" or "no"? Are you aware of any such6 increased burden calculation.7 No.8 A. Thank you.9 Q. CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Thank you.10 The next regular Planning Board meeting will be11 held Wednesday, January 7 at 7:30 PM. This applicant12 will be continued to January 7 at 7:30 PM via zoom. The13 notice will be preserved, at that time we will announce14 when the next Planning Board meeting will continue, if15 Mr. Afran has anymore questions, otherwise at that time16 we will have public comment.17 MR. AFRAN: My client has one question for18 the board. I want to clarify, because they may not be19 used to the practice. On the 7th of January we don't20 have to be here?21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Correct.22 MR. AFRAN: You have to -- the board will23 announce the new

to clarify, because they may not be19 used to the practice. On the 7th of January we don't20 have to be here?21 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Correct.22 MR. AFRAN: You have to -- the board will23 announce the new date for the new year and we'll all24 consult about that date.25

01/14/2026 10:36:25 AM Page 141 to 144 of 144 36 of 55 sheets 141 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: That's for you and Mr.1 Plocker and our attorney and our experts, we will both2 come up with dates that make sense.3 MR. AFRAN: Great. So the public should pay4 attention to the boards agenda to show that and we'll of5 course communicate as well.6 Mr. Pannullo has something to address to the7 board.8 MR. PANNULLO: Thank you. Before we wish9 each other a happy New Year, this is the third time we10 have tried to assemble for public comment in the middle11 of an evening. It is not just, we're tired and turn out12 and making it difficult with winter, the days are13 shorter, the nights are longer. People don't make it14 and I have asked before and I will ask, please, once15 again, we need to get a date certain. We need a time16 certain to start. Which is it, 6:30 PM or 6:00 or 7:00,17 whatever time you want in the evening to begin public18 comment for solely that purpose during the course, we19 promise you we'll fill the night, a partial night, like20 we have people here tonight, we had people here last21 night, please, it's not --22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you. We hear you.23 MR. PANNULLO: Is that a yes or no?24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: The board will decide25 142 based on more testimony to be provided. Public comment1 cannot be given until all testimony is done.2 MR. PANNULLO: The public comments when3 testimony is on regular evening.4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Correct. Not going to5 happen tonight.6 MR. PANNULLO: No, that's fine. I just7 don't want to come back and do this again.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We are working on it.9 MR. PANNULLO: Okay. Please work on it on10 an equal end for all of us. We keep coming. Appreciate11 it gentleman. Thank you. Happy New Year. Happy12 holiday's.13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank very much.14 (Hearing concludes at 10:28 PM.)15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 143 C E R T I F I C A T E1 I, ERIC S. FISHMAN, a Shorthand Reporter2 and Notary Public of the State of New Jersey do hereby3 certify that the foregoing is a true and accurate4 transcript of the testimony as taken stenographically by5 and before me at the time, place and on the date6 hereinbefore set forth, to the best of my ability.7 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither a8 relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel of any of9 the parties to the action; and that I am neither a10 relative nor employee of such attorney

bility.7 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither a8 relative nor employee nor attorney nor counsel of any of9 the parties to the action; and that I am neither a10 relative nor employee of such attorney or counsel; and11 that I am not financially interested in the action.12 13 14 ---------------------15 ERIC S. FISHMAN, S.R16 17 18 Dated:__________________19 20 21 22 23 24 25 144 SIGNATURE PAGE/ERRATA SHEET1 2 WITNESS: CASE REFERENCE:3 4 INSTRUCTIONS TO WITNESS5 After you have read your transcript, please note any errors in transcript6 on this page. Do not mark on the transcript itself. Please sign and date this sheet as indicated below. If additional lines are required for corrections, attach additional sheets.7 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ERROR OR AMENDMENT/REASON FOR CHANGE8 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Page Line9 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 I have read my transcript and subscribed to its accuracy, to include the corrections or amendments noted above or hereto attached:23 24 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Signature of Witness Date25

37 of 55 sheets Page 1 to 1 of 19 01/14/2026 10:36:25 AM 0 07095 [1] - 2:4 07952 [1] - 2:8 07960 [1] - 1:24 08540 [1] - 2:11 1 1 [8] - 22:15, 23:19, 42:21, 43:18, 49:9, 50:16, 51:16, 96:7 1.1 [1] - 41:10 1.2 [4] - 41:10, 43:7, 63:9, 66:19 1.25 [1] - 66:6 1.3 [1] - 63:9 1.5 [22] - 5:11, 36:22, 37:5, 40:13, 40:16, 60:21, 72:11, 72:13, 89:7, 89:9, 89:13, 90:10, 90:11, 90:23, 96:10, 96:18, 96:20, 98:25, 131:5, 138:21, 139:12 1.51 [1] - 98:25 1.7 [7] - 72:4, 72:9, 89:6, 89:11, 90:7, 90:16, 91:9 10 [8] - 1:2, 2:10, 27:19, 44:4, 101:11, 102:1, 116:19, 121:15 100 [3] - 47:1, 62:1, 116:3 100-feet [5] - 9:20, 9:22, 9:24, 114:19, 121:21 100-year [12] - 58:5, 58:7, 58:8, 59:6, 61:18, 61:21, 63:15, 66:16, 108:22, 109:16, 109:17, 109:19 102 [1] - 2:7 10:28 [1] - 142:15 11 [1] - 102:18 12 [1] - 102:18 12/3/2025 [1] - 49:5 120-acre [1] - 4:3 13 [20] - 3:4, 25:4, 25:9, 25:13, 25:25, 27:23, 28:5, 29:5, 29:15, 30:20, 32:8, 37:9, 44:3, 45:10, 45:15, 45:25, 46:12, 46:18, 93:24, 118:23 13th [2] - 28:7, 28:12 14 [14] - 30:17, 31:6, 31:16, 35:14, 36:3, 36:5, 36:6, 37:6, 37:10, 42:22, 42:24, 55:21, 77:18, 80:6 1440 [1] - 1:24 15 [6] - 93:25, 101:11, 112:21, 112:23, 113:13, 118:23 15-feet [1] - 121:15 15th [1] - 36:3 16 [1] - 109:16 17 [2] - 26:1, 81:12 180 [1] - 133:24 1902 [2] - 60:16, 70:7 1998 [1] - 100:2 19th [1] - 27:14 2 2 [12] - 21:3, 22:1, 22:17, 23:20, 42:21, 43:19, 44:13, 46:11, 47:5, 47:7, 51:16, 119:6 2-feet [2] - 103:19, 103:21 2.0 [14] - 5:11, 73:5, 73:6, 73:11, 73:15, 73:16, 73:18, 73:22, 74:2, 74:10, 90:12, 131:5, 131:20, 131:25 20 [8] - 14:2, 82:20, 89:4, 94:9, 102:1, 112:21, 112:24, 136:10 200 [3] - 75:22, 76:15, 133:23 200-feet [1] - 121:21 200-foot [2] - 108:14, 128:10 2013 [1] - 96:1 2025 [7] - 1:2, 3:4, 22:1, 25:10, 25:25, 44:13 20th [1] - 27:15 24 [1] - 96:5 25 [2] - 108:21, 113:22 25-feet [1] - 114:15 25-foot [2] - 114:10, 114:11 28 [1] - 44:23 285-5331 [1] - 1:25 2908 [5] - 60:16, 70:12, 70:14, 71:3, 71:16 2:00 [2] - 29:22, 30:5 2:30 [1] - 30:7 2nd [2] - 49:9, 50:16 2X [1] - 132:8 3 3 [7] - 42:12, 42:15, 43:2, 48:10, 48:13, 49:1, 51:16 3-feet [1] - 64:18 30 [6] - 82:20, 115:11, 116:10, 116:20, 136:10, 137:21 35 [7] - 81:11, 83:13, 84:1, 84:11, 84:21, 85:1, 86:9 38 [1] - 29:14 4 4 [4] - 1:24, 51:16, 116:9, 119:6 40 [6] - 14:17, 82:19, 102:3, 115:12, 134:25, 136:10 40-feet [1] - 5:25 400,000 [1] - 116:5 400-feet [1] - 135:23 45 [1] - 102:3 459 [1] - 2:4 49 [1]

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01/14/2026 10:36:25 AM Page 2 to 2 of 19 38 of 55 sheets 4:13, 4:16, 11:23, 12:6, 12:9, 14:23, 15:1, 15:14, 15:20, 15:25, 16:10, 16:13, 17:13, 17:16, 17:21, 17:23, 17:25, 18:3, 19:3, 19:8, 19:15, 21:17, 21:22, 24:13, 24:19, 25:7, 25:11, 26:5, 33:19, 37:20, 37:25, 38:4, 38:7, 38:11, 38:18, 54:3, 57:1, 59:1, 67:4, 67:7, 67:10, 91:12, 138:12, 140:18, 140:23, 141:4 afran [18] - 4:10, 4:15, 4:20, 11:20, 16:8, 17:20, 19:14, 24:9, 26:3, 26:11, 33:10, 37:24, 64:12, 91:18, 99:18, 127:12, 138:15, 140:16 afternoon [2] - 54:20, 124:23 afterwards [2] - 44:20, 75:24 agencies [1] - 20:14 AGENCY [1] - 1:23 agenda [1] - 141:5 ago [17] - 26:20, 39:20, 39:22, 57:15, 62:11, 68:10, 75:23, 76:15, 112:21, 112:24, 115:11, 115:12, 133:23, 133:24, 134:1, 135:1, 135:23 agree [19] - 30:7, 32:8, 36:17, 36:22, 39:10, 40:25, 41:1, 41:13, 41:15, 43:6, 53:15, 55:6, 61:9, 69:11, 73:17, 73:20, 74:1, 76:8, 90:14 agreed [4] - 41:14, 41:17, 43:8, 124:6 agreeing [3] - 30:8, 32:17, 41:13 agreement [4] - 41:20, 42:5, 43:11, 44:1 agrees [1] - 73:12 ahead [9] - 16:23, 18:2, 19:14, 33:20, 38:7, 38:20, 84:16, 98:17, 104:12 Alejandra [3] - 22:4, 27:15, 31:8 allegedly [1] - 15:11 allowed [2] - 43:13, 82:6 almost [2] - 6:25, 114:8 alone [1] - 133:3 alongside [1] - 87:6 ALPER [2] - 1:12, 92:19 alper [1] - 92:18 Amazon [1] - 106:1 AMBOY [1] - 2:4 AMENDMENT/ REASON [1] - 144:8 amendments [1] - 144:23 America [1] - 135:2 amount [7] - 20:11, 57:12, 110:11, 115:23, 116:11, 122:22, 131:1 ample [1] - 126:9 analysis [38] - 22:25, 36:20, 37:3, 39:13, 40:11, 48:23, 55:24, 61:10, 61:12, 61:17, 65:10, 65:13, 65:16, 69:10, 71:25, 73:2, 74:19, 74:20, 74:21, 82:9, 88:9, 89:22, 89:25, 90:6, 90:8, 91:2, 91:8, 96:3, 96:17, 97:9, 97:16, 98:12, 109:4, 109:25, 111:13, 117:2, 123:11, 132:19 analyst [3] - 13:17, 32:14, 34:9 analyzed [1] - 111:11 analyzing [1] - 7:1 AND [1] - 1:1 Anderson [48] - 9:13, 10:3, 10:6, 10:19, 11:18, 11:19, 15:7, 17:2, 19:20, 19:24, 22:2, 22:3, 23:23, 25:16, 25:18, 25:20, 28:2, 28:3, 28:7, 28:11, 28:13, 29:16, 29:23, 29:24, 30:6, 30:20, 31:7, 31:16, 32:4, 32:8, 32:12, 35:10, 35:15, 36:7, 43:4, 44:14, 44:21, 44:25, 45:13, 45:19, 45:21, 46:13, 47:9, 47:13, 47:24, 56:23, 72:18 Anderson/Langan [1] - 55:22 anger [1] - 17:25 Angle [1] - 135:8 angle [6] - 80:23, 81:11, 83:13, 84:21, 86:3, 101:11 angles [2] - 101:25, 107:17 announce [2] - 140:14, 140:24 answer [14] - 12:11, 23:22, 45:24, 67:8, 67:11, 70:5,