January 14, 2026, Planning Board Special Meeting - WEHI Transcript

02/03/2026 04:49:05 PM Page 21 to 24 of 122 6 of 53 sheets 21 522 PSF. Do you have any expert knowledge as to whether1 the slope is a "very mature older growth woodland2 setting?"3 No, I don't.4 A. So sitting here today you couldn't say whether or5 Q. not it's correct for him to be using this old growth PSF6 resistance capacity in his analysis, whether he's right7 or wrong, you couldn't say?8 That's correct.9 A. Okay.10 Q. Just so the board understands, I want to go back11 into the root cohesion question for a second. When we12 talk about resistance capacity derived from root13 cohesion, is it fair to say we're talking about the14 capacity of a root structure emanating from a tree to15 resist the force of gravity pushing a slope downward?16 It is.17 A. So the -- and it's fair to say, as far as you18 Q. know -- well, do you know how one calculates root19 cohesion in terms of the age, height of trees?20 I understand that it has to do with the frequency21 A. of roots. If you took a cut through the soil and the22 frequency of the roots and then a whole bunch of23 biological stuff that would pertain to the tensile24 strength of the roots.25 22 Right. In other words, it's fair to say that at1 Q. a certain point the older a tree is the more extensive2 and thicker it's root structure and that lateral3 structure may create a higher resistance capacity, is4 that fair to say?5 It seems fair to say. I am not an expert.6 A. That seems to be the general concept of root7 Q. cohesion, is that correct?8 That's correct.9 A. Okay.10 Q. As best as you can say.11 But other than that you're not in a position to12 evaluate the correctness or accuracy of Mr. Seels13 comments either on December 2 or on December 9, is that14 fair to say?15 That's fair so say.16 A. MR. AFRAN: I just need a moment, Mr.17 Chairman. I want to check my notes.18 Mr. Chairman, that concludes our additional19 cross-examination.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Thank you.21 Mr. Afran, do you have any other witnesses22 that you're going to present before the Planning Board?23 MR. AFRAN: No. I have a nice and firm24 e-mail from Ms. McGovern saying we are done. No, we25 23 don't have any other witnesses.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.2 MS. McGOVERN: Don't blame it on me you3 don't have any other witnesses.4 MR. AFRAN: I am sure we could of found some5 but it wouldn't be kind.6 MS. McGOVERN: That's okay.7 Brian, do you have any?8 MR.

MS. McGOVERN: Don't blame it on me you3 don't have any other witnesses.4 MR. AFRAN: I am sure we could of found some5 but it wouldn't be kind.6 MS. McGOVERN: That's okay.7 Brian, do you have any?8 MR. PLOCKER: No.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Thank you for that10 glorious moment.11 So ladies and gentlemen, we are going to12 start public comment this evening. The goal of public13 comment is that the public has listened to all of the14 testimony with documents and wish to provide to the15 Planning Board information that they feel is important16 in our deliberations. Each person will be given five17 minutes, one shot, to present whatever you have as long18 as it's focusing on this application. If for any reason19 you don't -- you go off the application we are going to20 bring you back. If you go off a second time we'll bring21 you back unfortunately, we can't do it for a third time22 because there are many people who wish to have comments.23 There will be another night which we will schedule for24 public comment, we didn't -- we expected this to go25 24 longer, but it didn't, so there are a number of people1 here who I see have been here throughout the application2 process. We want to make sure your voices are heard.3 If somebody says, I like this or I don't like this and4 the next person says the same thing, we are going to5 say, thank you and we'll move on, because, again, many6 people have things they want the board to hear, and the7 board wants to hear everything the public has to say8 about this application.9 So to that end, does anybody have any public10 comment?11 MR. AFRAN: Mr. Chairman.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: One second.13 As you have no more questions of Mr.14 Kleinberg, Mr. Kleinberg the board thanks you very much15 for your testimony. You may have the rest of the16 evening off or you can join us, whatever your privilege.17 MR. KLEINBERG: Thank you. This has been18 quite an experience.19 MS. McCARTNEY: Always welcome.20 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Afran, you would like21 to say something.22 MR. AFRAN: Yes. My client and his officers23 just made a point. You very graciously said there would24 be another night for public comment and that's25

7 of 53 sheets Page 25 to 28 of 122 02/03/2026 04:49:05 PM 25 appreciated. One of my clients also asking to point out1 that due to the Verizon outage many people who are2 listening in and were going to come when Mr. Kleinberg3 was finished, may not realize where we are in the4 evening and that's another reason people may come on the5 next night. I wanted to point that out. Appreciate you6 doing that anyway. I just want to explain that many7 people who weren't able to listen and know where we are8 today.9 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: It would be on the10 website.11 MS. McGOVERN: I can say what Mr. Plocker's12 going to say, let me just say we did specify that if the13 zoom goes down for any reason, it does not effect the14 notice, this meeting will continue on. So we have a lot15 of people in the audience it looks like that want to --16 MR. AFRAN: I am not complaining, I'm just17 passing on the comment.18 MS. McGOVERN: I don't think you want it to19 be determined that for any reason there is any question20 that this meeting is not noticed or that there is any21 technical difficulty that's disrupting the notice on22 this.23 MR. AFRAN: I was not raising a legal point,24 it was a practical comment. That's all.25 26 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay.1 Mr. Plocker.2 MR. PLOCKER: Can we just get, for the3 record, I know there was some discussion at the first4 meeting, Mr. Afran. Obviously the objector is a5 nonprofit corporation and I believe it was agreed that6 the officers of the corporation are represented by an7 attorney and would not be individual in offering public8 comment. Could we just confirm who those officers are9 now?10 MR. AFRAN: Whoa, whoa, whoa. It was not so11 agreed at all. It was agreed they would not question12 witnesses, they have an attorney doing that. It was not13 agreed they gave up their right as citizens to offer14 public comment. In fact it was expressly said to the15 contrary at one point.16 MS. McGOVERN: I believe Mr. Afran can call17 his clients to give a statement.18 MR. PLOCKER: That's perfectly fine.19 I just wanted it clear for the record and it20 has been a long time Mr. Afran, I did not go and review21 that transcript, so it's been a while.22 MR. AFRAN: Please accept my apologies.23 MR. PLOCKER: No problem. Thank you.24 MR. AFRAN: Do you want me to officially do25 27 that or when they stand they can say they're an officer.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You can put

ease accept my apologies.23 MR. PLOCKER: No problem. Thank you.24 MR. AFRAN: Do you want me to officially do25 27 that or when they stand they can say they're an officer.1 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: You can put it on the2 record who they are, if you wish. They can stand up,3 whatever you would like to do.4 MS. McGOVERN: Would you like to designate5 their part of the organization or they could do it, just6 so as long as -- if you see them come up and they didn't7 say it.8 MR. AFRAN: I don't know who may stand up.9 Let me say there are certain individuals who are10 officers of We Care NJ, which is a 501C-4 non profit11 organization, which is the official objector in this12 case. I am calling them at their discretion to make a13 statement. I would ask them when they rise to simply14 identify their position as officers or board members.15 MS. McGOVERN: Okay.16 MR. AFRAN: I believe one of my officers has17 something to raise. He is asking to address that, it's18 a separate issue from public comment.19 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We are going to --20 THE PUBLIC: Before we get to public21 comment, please.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Let me finish what I am23 saying and then go right ahead.24 Public comment will end this evening at25 28 10:00 PM.1 Go right ahead.2 THE PUBLIC: My name is Joseph Pannullo. I3 live in the 200-foot notice area. And prior to public4 comment I have some -- I am, I publically announced in5 this room December 9, I am no longer an officer nor6 director of We Care. I am speaking to you here pro se7 and I am speaking about a number of items before we8 close the record and begin public comment that I would9 like moved into the record and I have a copy of each of10 them with me and I have a flash drive for Jamilet with11 each one of those documents on it.12 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: First Mr. Pannullo, we're13 going to go slowly.14 THE PUBLIC: Sure.15 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Because we want to make16 sure the record is clear and things that the Planning17 Board has authority over. So you will say what you have18 to say one at a time. Our counsel will speak to it, Mr.19 Plocker may have something to say about it, Mr. Afran20 may have something to say about it, and then we'll move21 forward.22 Mr. Afran, you want to say something?23 MR. AFRAN: Let me just say, Mr. Pannullo24 recently did give up the office of president, I25

02/03/2026 04:49:05 PM Page 29 to 32 of 122 8 of 53 sheets 29 understood he's still active as ex officio or metritis,1 but in any event he and I discussed the issue of2 documents posted and I believe that he is referring to3 things we discussed and I have no objection to this4 happening.5 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Good.6 Mr. Pannullo, you have the floor, sir.7 THE PUBLIC: Thank you, Chairman. I8 appreciate it.9 There are a handful of documents, and I will10 go over them one at a time.11 I have an inventory list here for your12 Jamilet as well.13 The first set of documents are public14 documents which we can get into the rules. The first is15 the Essex County Environmental Commission Resolution to16 preserve this site. This is dated June 2, 2025. I do17 not believe that is in the record. It is an official18 document from the Essex County Board of Commissioners19 with a stamp from the State. Any question about it's20 evidentiary weight or it's validity here, please waive21 that.22 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: What's the date again,23 sir?24 THE PUBLIC: June 2, 2025. Resolution of25 30 Essex County Environmental Commission.1 MR. PLOCKER: Can I get a clarification on2 that document, Mr. Chairman. It's the Environmental3 Commission or the County Commissioners? Because there's4 a difference.5 Thank you, I would like to look at it. I6 believe somebody read it into the record.7 MS. McGOVERN: Was it read into the record?8 THE PUBLIC: May have been but that's the9 official copy from the county.10 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Okay. Hang on a second.11 MR. AFRAN: I think we did proffer it at one12 point but it was discussed --13 MS. McGOVERN: Oh, yeah, yeah. O-25,14 Resolution of West Orange Environmental Commission.15 MR. PLOCKER: That's different.16 MS. McGOVERN: And statement from West17 Orange. Okay. We don't have it marked for18 identification.19 MR. PLOCKER: Here you go.20 MR. AFRAN: Would that be ID-2 or --21 MS. McGOVERN: No. Well, let me ask you,22 Mr. Afran. What's the purpose of this? Is this23 supposed to be on the agenda as part of the record?24 MR. AFRAN: I think it should be part of the25 31 record.1 MS. McGOVERN: That would be O-39. Please2 mark that Jamilet and that was the Essex County --3 THE PUBLIC: Environmental Commission.4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Environmental Commission5 June 2, 2025 resolution.6 THE PUBLIC: Next there are three documents,7 you may mark them as one if you would

ounty --3 THE PUBLIC: Environmental Commission.4 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Environmental Commission5 June 2, 2025 resolution.6 THE PUBLIC: Next there are three documents,7 you may mark them as one if you would like. They are8 documents --9 MS. McGOVERN: Could you write it on the10 document so there's no confusion when you get the flash11 drive. But physically write the number on it.12 THE PUBLIC: Second, there are two13 resolutions.14 MR. AFRAN: Mr. Pannullo, I'm sorry, I15 missed the full description. Can we have the last one.16 THE PUBLIC: Essex County Environmental17 Commission.18 MR. AFRAN: O-39. Okay.19 THE PUBLIC: Next is the Essex County20 Environmental -- I'm sorry. Board of Commissioners21 resolution in support of the preservation of the forest22 on the Second Watchung Mountain Ridge. There are two23 number 34 adopted October 8, 2025 by acclamation. I24 have a copy of that.25 32 MS. McGOVERN: That's three pages?1 THE PUBLIC: So this resolution was amended2 October 22.3 MS. McGOVERN: Okay. The whole thing is4 O-40.5 THE PUBLIC: Okay.6 MS. McGOVERN: With the amendment. Board of7 Commissioners Second Watchung, October 8, 2025 with8 addendum.9 It's going to be one document. Describe it10 as a Proclamation with amendments.11 THE PUBLIC: The county did identify it as12 two resolutions, but that's up to you.13 MS. McGOVERN: Yeah, we'll call it an14 amendment, so we'll do it as one.15 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.16 Separately there are three communications.17 MR. AFRAN: I'm sorry, before you do that,18 do we have a number for that?19 MS. McGOVERN: That was O-40.20 MR. AFRAN: Okay. Thank you.21 THE PUBLIC: There were communications22 through the Mayor and the council for which there are23 two Planning Board members that vote that received, the24 rest of the Planning Board members I do not think would25

9 of 53 sheets Page 33 to 36 of 122 02/03/2026 04:49:05 PM 33 be aware of those documents, and so that all members of1 the Planning Board that will vote are operating from the2 same set of facts, I would ask that those three3 documents --4 MS. McGOVERN: I don't know what they are.5 Can I look at them.6 MR. PLOCKER: You should see them first.7 THE PUBLIC: They're three letters.8 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Bring them up here. He9 put it on the record so now we have to take a look at10 it.11 THE PUBLIC: Three letters July 25, 2024,12 May 6, 2025, September 8, 2025.13 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: Mr. Plocker.14 THE PUBLIC: Mr. Plocker can authentic them.15 He wrote them.16 MR. AFRAN: Mr. Chairman, I believe these17 are documents referred to by me at some length at an18 earlier session. I was reading from them and referred19 to them and I also made a motion on certain issues and20 referred to those in context of that. So these21 documents have actually been referenced in the record22 and with certain direct quotations. So they should be23 proffered.24 CHAIRMAN BAGOFF: We'll find out in a25 34 minute.1 MS. McGOVERN: These are submitted regarding2 the settlement agreement, to which the Planning Board is3 not a party. The council is a party to the settlement4 agreement, so that's not pertinent, in my opinion, to5 this hearing because I thought and I know that the6 Planning Board is not to consider the settlement or7 creating some obligation on their part. They're looking8 at the ordinance and they're looking at whether the9 burden of proof has been made to establish the site10 plan. This is not directed to the Planning Board11 members. Has nothing to do with the Planning Board's12 decision that's being made here today.13 THE PUBLIC: Here's the problem, the problem14 is two members of the Planning Board that do vote that15 sit on council and Mayor, they both received that16 information. Those letters, you can take them for what17 you like, but if everyone here voting is operating from18 the same set of facts it is about this settlement19 agreement, this application, this ordinance and the20 force of this decision. Everyone who here who votes21 should be operating from the same set of facts. The22 current council president is on the Planning Board, the23 Mayor is on the Planning Board, they both received this.24 MS. McGOVERN: I believe this taints the25 35 board and this is not appropriate

he22 current council president is on the Planning Board, the23 Mayor is on the Planning Board, they both received this.24 MS. McGOVERN: I believe this taints the25 35 board and this is not appropriate for a board to review.1 The council members and the Mayor, who were council2 members at the time of the settlement or perhaps are3 currently, have different obligations and the laws put4 them on the Planning Board because they have dual5 responsibilities. This is not appropriate for the6 Planning Board members to see. They're not a7 participant or a signator to the settlement agreement.8 The counsel and Mayor were. So it's not relevant. I9 would -- they will not be admitted.10 THE PUBLIC: Okay. So I will reserve the11 right to prerogative writ action to the extend the12 record to the include these documents and perhaps others13 that may or may not be allowed.14 MS. McGOVERN: You need to mark them for15 identification.16 THE PUBLIC: Okay. That'd be great.17 MS. McGOVERN: And not go on the agenda and18 this way if you -- you don't know how the decisions19 going to be, but somebody files an appeal and those are20 relevant they can make their case then.21 The next identification number -- I got to22 find my sheet.23 MR. AFRAN: Let's mark each one for ID24 separately since they're separate letters at separate25 36 times.1 MS. McGOVERN: Give them to Jamilet.2 They're not going on the agenda, they're just being3 marked for identification.4 MR. AFRAN: May I recite -- you have a copy5 there, Ms. McGovern.6 MS. McGOVERN: The first ID O, Objector ID-17 was the e-mail exchange that we discussed tonight that8 were in fact ID-1.9 MR. AFRAN: Those are in evidence anyway, I10 used them as a composite.11 MS. McGOVERN: Objector ID-2 is a letter12 dated --13 MR. AFRAN: I have 7/25/24.14 MS. McGOVERN: 7/25/24 to the Council and15 Mayor.16 MR. AFRAN: It's addressed to --17 MS. McGOVERN: To the township attorney.18 MR. AFRAN: And copied to Ms. McGovern.19 MS. McGOVERN: Okay. Addressed to the20 township attorney copied to me. All right.21 THE PUBLIC: Thank you.22 MS. McGOVERN: Next is Objector ID-3.23 MR. AFRAN: ID-3. Again, it's a letter from24 Hutt, Shimanowitz & Plocker to --25

02/03/2026 04:49:05 PM Page 37 to 40 of 122 10 of 53 sheets 37 MS. McGOVERN: Letter dated --1 MR. AFRAN: Dated May 6, 2025 to Karen2 Carnevale, municipal clerk, and it is copied to Mr.3 Frank, Mark Moon, Steven Genaro, Diane McGovern, James4 Abbott, business administrator of the town and the5 township council of the Township of West Orange.6 MS. McGOVERN: Okay. Next.7 MR. AFRAN: And that would be three, am I8 correct?9 MS. McGOVERN: Objector ID-3.10 MR. AFRAN: One second, please.11 And the last one we have here is a letter12 from Hutt, Shimanowitz and Plocker dated September 8,13 2025. Again, addressed to Ms. Carnevale as municipal14 clerk, and copied on this occasion to Mr. Trenk,15 municipal counsel and Ms. McGovern, board counsel.16 MS. McGOVERN: Okay. That was it for those.17 MR. AFRAN: That is it, yes.18 MS. McGOVERN: Those will be kept in the19 file in the Planning Board office but not -- they will20 not be added to the agenda.21 MR. AFRAN: Yeah. I don't think we recited22 it so the last document is a September 8 letter,23 Objectors ID-4.24 MS. McGOVERN: Yes. Okay. That satisfies25 38 that.1 Do you have any other documents, Mr.2 Pannullo?3 THE PUBLIC: Yes. Thank you.4 Dated September 29, I will find the document5 for you. There is/was submitted to this town, the town6 council, this Planning Board and the Mayor and that was7 -- this was signed on letter from 30 environmental8 organizations in New Jersey.9 MS. McGOVERN: That's a petition and the10 board can't accept that.11 THE PUBLIC: Actually the board can accept12 the document. This board under Rule 506, the formal13 rule of evidence are not enforced before planning14 boards. May be valid in a court of law --15 MS. McGOVERN: There's a specific case that16 says we can't accept petitions.17 THE PUBLIC: This is not a petition.18 MS. McGOVERN: Yes, there's a whole bunch of19 entities that signed it that are not here to represent20 themselves, because if the board had any questions to go21 through that, that's akin to a petition.22 THE PUBLIC: Can we also mark that as not23 entered?24 MR. AFRAN: Let me recite the -- I will25 39 recite it, it's a document dated September 29, 2025, and1 it is on the letterhead of We Care New Jersey, Climate2 Revolution Action Network and the Ramapo Valley Indian3 Nation. And has seals of all three organizations on the4 first page and it contains the names and seals

tterhead of We Care New Jersey, Climate2 Revolution Action Network and the Ramapo Valley Indian3 Nation. And has seals of all three organizations on the4 first page and it contains the names and seals of5 approximately two dozen organizations attached to it and6 it appears to be a petition seeking certain relief and I7 think that would be noted as Objector ID-5.8 MS. McGOVERN: Yes. All right. Thank you.9 Next.10 THE PUBLIC: Yup.11 So the only other time I came to appear here12 and speak, I was sworn, I believe Counsel Afran was13 going to proffer letters into the record. I would like14 them proffered now myself. They are letters from the15 Essex County Planning Board dated June 28 in response to16 a June 27 letter from me and a confirmation with copies,17 stamped copies, but I brought originals in case --18 MS. McGOVERN: What's the date of the19 letter? What's the year, June what?20 THE PUBLIC: June 27, 2024 is first.21 MS. McGOVERN: Is this about the notice22 issue in terms of that the ordinance hasn't been filed23 with the county Planning Board?24 THE PUBLIC: About the filing, correct.25 40 MS. McGOVERN: That's moot because it was1 filed and then they renoticed everyone. It's moot.2 THE PUBLIC: It's not about the notice, in3 fact it's about the effectiveness of the ordinance over4 this application on the date it was filed. And that5 information and the original from the county are here6 and I would like them marked.7 MS. McGOVERN: We will mark them as an8 identification number. In my opinion that was dealt9 with and it is moot.10 THE PUBLIC: Right. I understand that may11 be a legal question and I am not a lawyer, you are not a12 judge, and this is not a court of law, so I would like13 that marked.14 MS. McGOVERN: Objector-6 and it is a15 package of correspondence relating to the county filing16 of the ordinance.17 THE PUBLIC: There's a series of18 correspondence back and forth between Bill Potter and19 you, counselor.20 MS. McGOVERN: Mr. Pannullo.21 THE PUBLIC: Yes.22 MS. McGOVERN: I appreciate your zeal for23 this, if this case goes to another level these things24 will be discoverable, it's just not part of what the25